Rich idle, Rich on throttle tip in

[MSP6]

So nothing tune wise had changed. Slightly rich at idle 14.4-14.5 This made me watch it more and I noticed that whenever I give it any decent amount of throttle about a second later it richens up badly for usually 2-3 lines of a datalog (datalog to come soon I deleted by mistake.) I'm talking about from 11.6ish to 9.xx from one line to the next for a couple of lines then back to normal AFR's. I can't feel it at all, only see it on my AP. So far I've tried the following via searching:

1. thought it was cold weather E85 shift. Adjusted scalars, no change. Added extra gallon of E85, no change

2. loosened and retightened all clamps/couplers etc, seem ok

3. Removed and checked BPV (Turbosmart). Vacuum nipple on top holds vacuum

4. Removed and cleaned MAF, also replaced dirtyish air filter

5. Removed OCC and routed lines OEM style, no change, hello smoke!

Boost levels all fine. WOT AFR's within +/- .2 or so. Again I can't feel anything when it dips this way which seems odd? I would expect it to bog but it doesnt at all. It really seems like an air leak but I can't find any and boost is spot on. Now I'm thinking primary O2 sensor but I just wanted any opinions before I drop $200 on a new sensor. Ugh....

[pzr2874]

reflash to a OTS map and see if it's still the same on a WOT pull

No boost leak tester?

[MSP6]

Heres a log, happens on line 8. Dips to 10.11 on this log, but frequently goes to 9's. No leak checker. I do want to think its a leak and not the O2 sensor but ive reseated all couplers and clamps with no change. Removed and reseated my BPV, no change. Was gonna try swapping my stock BPV back on as I remembered reading a faulty one would leak at idle?

[pzr2874]

worth a shot

[rfinkle2]

In the log you posted, there is a touch of KR, so the wot operation afr will be affected (i.e. the ecu will add fuel to combat the knock).

What are your LTFT's?

[MSP6]

Hmmm the KR is right in line that time isn't it. I thought I had monitored it while repeating this and it hadn't showed a correlation but I'll have to go pull a couple more logs. That wasn't a WOT log though. 60%ish...WOT AFR's are pretty close, target of 12 and AFR's stay 11.9-12.2

50/50 E85 as well so I'd imagine it's "fake" knock anyways, i.e noise?

[pzr2874]

you self tune?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MSP6 Hmmm the KR is right in line that time isn't it. I thought I had monitored it while repeating this and it hadn't showed a correlation but I'll have to go pull a couple more logs. That wasn't a WOT log though. 60%ish...WOT AFR's are pretty close, target of 12 and AFR's stay 11.9-12.2 50/50 E85 as well so I'd imagine it's "fake" knock anyways, i.e noise?

My apologies, I assumed that calculated load of 2.16 would correspond to wot operation. In any event, the afr's in that portion of your log are skewed due to a bit of KR.

What are your LTFT's?

[Lex]

Tip in enrichment is something you may be seeing here. Does the car bog down when you tip in or is it smooth? If it's smooth I wouldn't worry about it. We don't have access to tip in enrichment tables with ATP/ATR.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My apologies, I assumed that calculated load of 2.16 would correspond to wot operation. In any event, the afr's in that portion of your log are skewed due to a bit of KR. What are your LTFT's?

Sorry, missed the LTFT question, nothing odd. +/- 3 or 4 throughout. You weren't far off though. Everything 68% and up is dialed in so it was and it wasn't WOT, if that makes sense? So you were right pretty much, I just gave it some throttle so show to enrichment.

Originally Posted by Lex Tip in enrichment is something you may be seeing here. Does the car bog down when you tip in or is it smooth? If it's smooth I wouldn't worry about it. We don't have access to tip in enrichment tables with ATP/ATR.

It's perfectly smooth which struck me as odd. I expected it to bog. It's always blipped rich on heavier transitions I just thought 9.XX was a bit low. Though with how much colder it is now I suppose it might be expected? Also only for a line or two which is what, a tenth of a second heh. Maybe I'm over concerned.

[MSP6]

Also noticed this morning that it goes rich during quick throttle let offs. Thinking the BPV is the issue. Switching to stocker today to check.

[Mistersix]

I'm having a similar issue. (if i could hijack your thread a little) Same as yours only much more severe. It seems to go really rich at the same point all the time. But at low loads and high loads everything is spot on.

Its been below zero here lately so i've not have the chance to go check for any leaks or anything. But its very sudden, as the car was running fine. And you can feel when it happens.

In the log below. I'm accelerating mildly holding throttle position. The afr's go rich. If i bump the throttle up a notch they go to commanded as shown at line 156.

If it were a leak, wouldn't things be wonky all the time? Idle is fine, cruise is fine, WOT is fine. But somewhere in between it just sits at the nines. And the sound from the turbo changes. Almost as if the bpv is opening?

[MSP6]

Hmm with yours I think I would suspect a leak. Mine does dip to the 9's but it never does it for more than 2 lines, or less than half a second. It almost too fast to see on my AP display most of the time. WOT AFR's are fine. My idle AFR is a touch low, at 14.5ish but who knows if its relevant. Gonna swap my stock BPV back on in a little while. If it fixes it ill crack open my turbosmart and examine.

[rfinkle2]

When you are idling @ 14.5, what are your short term trims?

I see you are running 50.50 e85. What scalar values are you using?

Are either of you guys running meth injection?

[MSP6]

No meth. Scalar @ 1.21 Specific fuel at .76, same as the past 6 months or so. STFT doesn't jump positive and negative rapidly like I saw could happen with a faulty O2, just sit in a relatively small window, +/- a few. Also it doesn't idle 100% at 14.4 04 14.5 but will dip down every 5-10 seconds for a second or so. I'm not too concerned about that it just happens to be what made me notice the other issue.

Put stock BPV, no change. Exhaust leak next, idk. FML

[Mistersix]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 When you are idling @ 14.5, what are your short term trims? I see you are running 50.50 e85. What scalar values are you using? Are either of you guys running meth injection?

No meth. I run eth in the summer and a more aggressive tune. In the winter i dial it back a bit.

Could and exhaust leak cause the condition i'm experiencing? A year or so ago i discovered that where the dp meets the factory cat back was leaking. I cleaned the flange's re-installed new gaskets and it was good.

When i'm on the highway going up hill a long ways, it just sits at the nine's. As shown in the log below.

[rfinkle2]

A good way to check for leaks post maf is to spray some carb and choke cleaner @ the joints that are suspect. You will get an audible change in idle.

(try not to get any overspray on painted surfaces)

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Mistersix No meth. I run eth in the summer and a more aggressive tune. In the winter i dial it back a bit. Could and exhaust leak cause the condition i'm experiencing? A year or so ago i discovered that where the dp meets the factory cat back was leaking. I cleaned the flange's re-installed new gaskets and it was good. When i'm on the highway going up hill a long ways, it just sits at the nine's. As shown in the log below.

Yes. An exhaust leak could cause a rich condition.

[MSP6]

Yeah I'm gonna reseat my DP on both ends whenever its not 8 degrees here anymore, heh. Mine only blips not sits there like @Mistersix; so I'm more OCD about it than concerned,

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MSP6 Yeah I'm gonna reseat my DP on both ends whenever its not 8 degrees here anymore, heh. Mine only blips not sits there like @Mistersix; so I'm more OCD about it than concerned,

It is a little curious that both of you guys have 6's. There was an early issue that Phate uncovered concerning VVT and some relation to performance, but I have to go and dig it up... I don't think it is related, but do think MAYBE, it is too coincedental that you guys are both ms6's.

In the mean time, keep us posted if you are able to tighten something up.

P.s. I am a little ocd with this stuff as well, so no worries.

[Mistersix]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Yes. An exhaust leak could cause a rich condition.

Even if its after both sensors?

It so cold where i'm at i've not inspected anything. But its so bad i don't have to even monitor for it i can feel it when it happens. I keep forgetting to stop and just listen for a fluttering sound. I could hear it real good when it was leaking last time.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Mistersix Even if its after both sensors? It so cold where i'm at i've not inspected anything. But its so bad i don't have to even monitor for it i can feel it when it happens. I keep forgetting to stop and just listen for a fluttering sound. I could hear it real good when it was leaking last time.

Something as far back as the second o2 sensor is not likely the problem.

There is some interaction between the first and second 02 sensor, so I can't say for certain that it can't be as far back as the 2nd sensor.

[rolanblack]

What oil brand is currently in your engine? Maybe want to look at your hose that goes from TIP to your BCS. Might have a small hole or crack

[MSP6]

Unless its pinhole sized, I have no tears or cracks. Mine is not a "feelable" situation though like Mister's. I wouldn't doubt a smallish leak between turbo and DP in my case just conflicting the primary sensor momentarily.

[Mistersix]

Gonna warm up here in the next few days. Time for an inspection.

[MSP6]

Well I was right, and I was wrong.

I was right because there was a leak between DP and turbo.

I was wrong because it was not smallish, it was Satan's asscrack big. Top left and top middle nuts had completely backed off to the point they we almost fell off lol.

This is pesky as I had this happen once before but noticed almost immediately due to the noise shift. This was before my RMM install however. I only just noticed a faint sound today so I said to hell with the cold and pulled the heat shield. RMM did a wonderful job of covering the noise heh.

Rich dipping idle, fixed. Other "issue" is a little better. Gonna agree with @Lex; that it seems to be just tip in enrichment. Hope @Mistersix; finds as easy a solution as mine.

And @pzr2874; I just realized I ignored your last question. Yes, self tune. Hadn't touched it for months though aside from insignificant WGDC and MAF cals to compensate for weather. Thanks for throwing out ideas with us though.

[TiGraySpeed6]

I want to tell yo u"Good Job" for getting it fixed, but gonna temper it with "WTF!!" for letting it get that bad!!


At the same time, for me, last weekend was the BNR install, then a week of play, but this weekend I need to crawl back through it and double check for loose bolts on my dp and, well, pretty much /everything/ involved. After a weeks worth of expansion and contraction from temp changes it just makes sense to touch everything and be sure it's still snug.

based on my experience with the DP install, I bet most of it has loosened up enough to be in need of correction....

[Mistersix]

I did a visual inspection an everything seems in good order as far as everything being connected and not ripped/cracked or broken. And the exhaust joints are good. But no boost leak test. Still freezing here.

Funny thing is though, suddenly the rich condition has all but disappeared. I was trying to provoke it and could not. Previously, it was happening continuously. Now targeted afr's are hit according to their open/closed loop tables. 14.7 at cruise and 11.8 when accelerating.

When i got home i jumped out and said, "WTF Six!? Whaddaya doin to me?"

[TiGraySpeed6]

Having personality boss, having personality....

[MSP6]

Haha maybe you just had shitty gas? But yeah TiGray I could've kicked myself. It happened once a few hundred miles after I installed the DP over the summer. The second they started to loosen though I could hear it. I didn't hear anything this time until the very end, and that was only when I paid attention. I blame the RMM! Or my apparently failing ears.....

[Mistersix]

Shitty gas. I never even considered it. Now that you mention it i did have trace's of knock on some WOT pulls with a conservative winter pull that i found odd.

If so i know what gas station it was because i never go to it.

Personality? I dunno about other MS6 owners but Mistersix got it in dozens. So much so that i had to give it a name.

[Mistersix]

Well my mystery Rich condition has came back. Frankly i don't think it ever left. The sound from the turbo changes dramatically and and afr's go really rich. Again, at part throttle when boost gauge reads around 0.

I run the stock valve VTA with the aid of @Lex; Guardian angel. I was suspicious if the factory valve was opening a bit and venting some air out causing the super rich afr's. This could be a byproduct of using a dual chamber valve to vent with. I borrowed a friends @Ray Danger 2020; Go Fast Bits respons valve which is a single chamber push type valve. And i could not provoke the rich afr's no matter how hard i tried. I then reverted back to the stocker and bam, part throttle going up a hill showed all 9's on the AP. All scientific mediums were constant throughout the experiment. Drove on the same roads in the same fashion with the same gas in roughly the same temps. The only variable being the different valves.

The stocker holds boost at WOT just fine. And at any level of boost as well. It seems that when there's no pressure, or vacuum on one side of the valve or the other it opens a bit. Which i assume is fine if its recirculated. My observation may not be exactly correct but my assumption that the valve was bleeding of air has to be correct based on the results.

Its an interesting finding none the less, and felt it was worth sharing. So, now i'm on the hunt for a GFB.

[MSP6]

IIRC, @Lex; correct me if I'm wrong, but the stocker was the peskiest valve to use with the GA due to the spring stiffness. My condition actually improved even more when I removed the v-band connection and removed/replaced gasket and sealed with high temp silicon. Gasket was pretty shot, which reminds me, new heads up thread about it coming.

[DSIT995]

Hmm, This is an interesting thread...
I have been seeing my idle afrs dropping 14.7 to 14.4 the longer Im on a revision of my map...
Right after I flash Im rock solid at 14.7-14.8, LTFT's are all +/-4ish and STFT's seem normal (I have forgot to reattach the TIP Vac hose and pegged my STFT's)

I did find a couple Ex-Mani bolts that were not completely tight but that had zero effect on idle afr's. I havnt checked the 2nd O2, but have checked the 1st O2 and my Bosch O2 for my Gauge... Both solid

Just seems backwards that the more historical FT data the ECU collects the closer it would be to stoich.. Not further off

Also this is running E25 (1.08 Scalar &.7490 SG)w/o meth. The station where I get my e85 the attendant had no idea what the blend was so I went off the guide here which means its #3 e70 minimum blend)

Im going to check the 2nd O2 and also the manifold for any cracks tomrw

[Mistersix]

Originally Posted by MSP6 IIRC, @Lex; correct me if I'm wrong, but the stocker was the peskiest valve to use with the GA due to the spring stiffness. My condition actually improved even more when I removed the v-band connection and removed/replaced gasket and sealed with high temp silicon. Gasket was pretty shot, which reminds me, new heads up thread about it coming.

I do recall lex saying the same thing in his VTA thread, iirc. I'm unsure if it correlates with my issue, however.

[MSP6]

Originally Posted by Mistersix I do recall lex saying the same thing in his VTA thread, iirc. I'm unsure if it correlates with my issue, however.

Right, I have no idea if that's part of your problem. Maybe it was contributing slightly but no idea really. It just popped into my head when you said GA and stock BPV.
@DSIT995; I actually saw the same thing with my issue. IDLE AFR's would be spot on for the first few minutes of a revision, then slowly richen up to the 14.2ish I was seeing.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by MSP6 IIRC, @Lex; correct me if I'm wrong, but the stocker was the peskiest valve to use with the GA due to the spring stiffness. My condition actually improved even more when I removed the v-band connection and removed/replaced gasket and sealed with high temp silicon. Gasket was pretty shot, which reminds me, new heads up thread about it coming.

The OEM valve was tough to tune due to its snappy transition but at idle it definitely stays closed with the GA in VTA mode.

I had a customer had this weird rich at idle issue and he fixed it by uninstalling the AP from the car and reinstalling and reflashing. Give that a shot.


What are the LTFTs at?

[MSP6]

Ah, my mistake. Knew it was something to do with the stock valve though. Also no new thread about crappy ebay DP gasket as there are 30 others lol.

[SLOWHATCH]

I have noticed slightly rich afr's for a couple weeks now also. It's not terrible but seems to idle fine, then it will drop to 14.3 and fluctuate to 15.5 ish from time to time. I've also noticed slightly erratic idling when coming to a stop. Rpm's seem to hang for a few seconds. I didn't see where anyone mentioned the rpm's issue.

I should also mention the car runs great at wot. Went for a drive earlier to warm the car up. Came home, sprayed maf cleaner anywhere I thought could be leaking post maf and got nothing.

[rfinkle2]

Barring any hardware related issued, I'm convinced that this is shift control table bug that is "behind the scenes".

I saw these problems randomly pop up around the time the v231 maps were released and the 80% IDC resolution was fixed.

Me being convinced doesn't mean too much though. LOL