Another blown turbo

[jaynick1]

Hey guys unfortunately my intro/first post is a negative one. Recently purchased an 08 speed 3 that needed a little TLC. 112k miles, a little beat up but I got it for a steal. Wanted a fun daily run about car so looking to stay at stock power levels.

Well only put 30 miles on it since purchase and after getting on it noticed a whine from the turbo and no power. I've had/built many turbo cars over the years and I though meh, boost/vacuum leak. The hose off the turbo inlet had broken so I ordered a corksport and mended the stocker for now (youll see in the video). Went around the block and the noise was still there. Took a video and once I heard it its definitely the turbo, you can hear the fan blades bouncing off the housing lol. Pulled the inlet and took a second video of the shaft play.

I am keeping the car at stock power levels so I was looking at having it re manufactured by the guys at BNR. Anyone have any other recommendations?

videos for your viewing pleasure.
https://youtu.be/lMnWFsgB-WI

Shaft play:
https://youtu.be/S3OYuaNlHNw

[kTaLgsTo]

Just buy a bnr v1, reman of yours is a tall task

[jaynick1]

You mean an s1? BNR will do a full remanufacture for 400 vs 900 for the s1.

[kTaLgsTo]

Yes S1 sorry. It would just be worth it to me to have a brand new turbo instead of a reman... It may be in worse shape then you know by just seeing what you can in the video.

[jaynick1]

Ah, so the 400 bucks is just a baseline rebuild and could end up costing more depending on the extent? I do like the idea of the "hybrid" s1.

[dp3]

Everyone I have read who has had this issue seems to run into similar advice regarding rebuilding the stock turbo. I would be reluctant to do so. OEM is not the most reliable design and the BNR OEM replacement is cheap in terms of peace of mind. That is the direction I would head in with that mileage. I suspect these engines can clock a lot of miles if the oil is changed out ahead of MFG specs.

[jaynick1]

Ok I im going to go with the BNR OEM remanufacture. Is there anyone that has experience with them?

[MSMS3]

Yes. Did both. Got a BNR reman to address "smoking turbo". My OEM also had shaft wear and was getting vane strikes. The reman also started smoking after about 50,000 miles. Not BNR's fault. K04 seals just can't handle crankcase pressure.

So, I got BNR stage 1. It uses a Garrett G28 series CHRA in the K04 shell. This is a permanent solution to the seal failure smoking. It has the same flow (actually a little bit better) than the K04, so you can run it on stock tune or your present K04 tune with no change.

Just go BNR Stage 1. A reman, regardless of who does it, will just smoke eventually.

[GroceryGtr]

I disagree. a good quality rebuild will be just fine. Turbos are wearable items, so when someone complains they only got 50K out of their rebuild I just shake my head. A decent quality rebuilt unit can be had for $200-350. I would go this route as they dont require a core in the event yours is truly trashed. I do agree a S1 is superior, but if you plan on staying stock a rebuilt K04 would meet your requirements and save you some coin.

I will warn you there are a ton of cheap ebay special rebuilds you want to stay away from. Look for one that comes from a reputable rebuilder and/or has a warranty.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by GroceryGtr I disagree. a good quality rebuild will be just fine. Turbos are wearable items, so when someone complains they only got 50K out of their rebuild I just shake my head. A decent quality rebuilt unit can be had for $200-350. I would go this route as they dont require a core in the event yours is truly trashed. I do agree a S1 is superior, but if you plan on staying stock a rebuilt K04 would meet your requirements and save you some coin. I will warn you there are a ton of cheap ebay special rebuilds you want to stay away from. Look for one that comes from a reputable rebuilder and/or has a warranty.

It will just smoke again. Turbos on other platforms I've owned (Volvos and Saabs) have all lasted more than 100,000 miles. Those have been tuned engines, too. The K03 on Audi and VW 2.0T engines is holding up to the 100,000 mile mark or better. We have a crankcase ventillation problem that is killing the seals in our K04s. This is a design defect.

[Jeff23spl]

rebuilt turbo is just as good as how it is done. It is like rebuilding an engine, if the cylinder wall is deeply grooved or worn out and you just put new rings it will blow-by again....

If your turbo fail and you just put another one in without looking at the reason why the first one fail, just expect to put a third one in too and so on...

If you look for a low price more than anything else, you can buy a brand new K04 CHRA for about 200$ and put it back into your hot and cold side yourself....I just don't know about the quality of these CHRA

[mituc]

Instead of rebuilding it for $400 you can buy a Chinese replacement off of ebay which are pretty decent quality.
If it was my car and didn't want to go bigger I'd go with the BNR S1 or S2, but that's just me.

Personally I've been there and the teenager in me decided to go big turbo even the factory turbo was still good. The grown-up in me couldn't resist and gave up arguing the teenager decision.

Long story short it may be a good thing that your turbo shit the seals. So act accordingly. And a personal advice: act recklessly. Fuck grown-ups opinions!

[MazdaspeedKills]

Originally Posted by dp3 I suspect these engines can clock a lot of miles if the oil is changed out ahead of MFG specs.

Definition of "a lot of miles" is subjective. Many are hitting the 120-130k mile mark and are requiring rebuilds due to low compression in cylinder 3. That's with routine oil changes every 3k miles. I'm seeing more and more posts from owners buying these cars with this mileage on the clock and just starting their performance builds (just bolt ons). IMO they're wasting their $$ if they're not financially planning for a engine rebuild/replacement in the near future.

[Fstrnyou]

Originally Posted by MazdaspeedKills IMO they're wasting their $$ if they're not financially planning for a engine rebuild/replacement in the near future.

My 149k mile original engine started seeing mods at 120k (sooner if the PO stocked it out). Compression is solid...but it smokes a tad when I give it some beans. I suspect rings. Currently equipped with intake, TBE, CS turbo, HPFP, 18psi in the summer heat.

To your point, I'll be picking up my block from the machine shop very soon. Once it's built, the original engine will go into storage as a working back-up if I manage to screw something up with the forged build.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by MazdaspeedKills Definition of "a lot of miles" is subjective. Many are hitting the 120-130k mile mark and are requiring rebuilds due to low compression in cylinder 3. That's with routine oil changes every 3k miles. I'm seeing more and more posts from owners buying these cars with this mileage on the clock and just starting their performance builds (just bolt ons). IMO they're wasting their $$ if they're not financially planning for a engine rebuild/replacement in the near future.

Your observations are right, but for every one that drops compression on one or more cylinders, there are two or three, if well-maintained, that are fine. I guess, at 140,000 miles, at least 120,000 of which have been with the mods below (except for recently added BNR S1), I am one of the lucky ones. Static compression is 185-190 across the board. No leak down losses of any significance.

I hear what you are saying, though. Ring land issues can emerge at any time. Buyers of our cars with higher mileage need to confirm static compression and do a leak down test before closing the deal, and if a K04 is still in place, expect it to smoke.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Compression is solid...but it smokes a tad when I give it some beans. I suspect rings.

If the compression is solid at that mileage I'd rather expect the exhaust valve seals to be a bit cooked than the rings to be gone. If rings are gone it always reflects into compression, and sometimes low compression engines do not even smoke yet until they get below 100PSI on at least two cylinders.

[KiwiFlavor]

PTE 6466 or bust!

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by mituc If the compression is solid at that mileage I'd rather expect the exhaust valve seals to be a bit cooked than the rings to be gone. If rings are gone it always reflects into compression, and sometimes low compression engines do not even smoke yet until they get below 100PSI on at least two cylinders.

Exactly, my blown broken ringland engine ran 1 year with something like 110-120psi on #3 . it wasn't smoking but smelling oil a little bit under wot when someone get close behind...
I wasn't seeing it between oil change. The oil ring was still intact....In fact, my rebuild use more oil than my original low compression engine! (I went a bit far with ring gap )
My valves were a lot dirty and the injector seal was gone too....

I don't really think it is a matter of mileage because i know exactly when and why mine broke. IMO there is more risks for rods bearing or VVT/timing on an stock or slightly modded engine with high mileage....

[dp3]

Originally Posted by MazdaspeedKills Definition of "a lot of miles" is subjective. Many are hitting the 120-130k mile mark and are requiring rebuilds due to low compression in cylinder 3. That's with routine oil changes every 3k miles. I'm seeing more and more posts from owners buying these cars with this mileage on the clock and just starting their performance builds (just bolt ons). IMO they're wasting their $$ if they're not financially planning for a engine rebuild/replacement in the near future.

I totally agree. One thing I had wondered about with regard to the cylinder3 compression drop was whether that was due to carbonning up the valve train and carbon being hammered down the cylinder walls.

I have never kept a Speed past 70 k miles (have had 3 of them) and compression was always even with no apparent wear that I could discern, However I do de-carbon every 30K miles and run Gas which has a decarbon-fuel system lubricant in it.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by dp3 I totally agree. One thing I had wondered about with regard to the cylinder3 compression drop was whether that was due to carbonning up the valve train and carbon being hammered down the cylinder walls.

It's a combination of several things. the carbon build-up on the oil rings affects all cylinders. Then it's the 2nd and 3rd cylinders which take in more air (intake manifold flow imbalance) and dissipate heat less, especially #3 which is in the middle of the block with more reinforcements around, so the piston rings come in contact sooner than for the other cylinders which eventually lead to both ring and cylinder wear, and in worse cases to piston damage (ringlands).

So if you do WMI prior to getting significant wear and decreased compression you may save the engine and run it for quite long.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by mituc It's a combination of several things. the carbon build-up on the oil rings affects all cylinders. Then it's the 2nd and 3rd cylinders which take in more air (intake manifold flow imbalance) and dissipate heat less, especially #3 which is in the middle of the block with more reinforcements around, so the piston rings come in contact sooner than for the other cylinders which eventually lead to both ring and cylinder wear, and in worse cases to piston damage (ringlands). So if you do WMI prior to getting significant wear and decreased compression you may save the engine and run it for quite long.

I'm wondering if the OEM tuning strategy of using pig rich AFR under high rpm, high load conditions to promote cylinder cooling and help prevent detonation at higher timing may have also been protective of cylinder 3? Just speculating. My "can-o-tune" Hypertech tune carries forward that same super rich AFR philosophy, making it even richer above 5,500 rpm under load, but with more timing, as much as 18-19 degrees at redline. At a bit over 140,000 miles of pretty aggressive, "spirited" driving I still have 185-190 compression across the board.

I may be leaving 10 whp on the table with the HT tune on stock turbo and pump gas compared to a custom tune with Versatune or AP, but maybe the super rich philosophy of Mazda and Hypertech, is helping save my pistons. Just don't know.

On the other hand if that unburned fuel gets past the rings it contaminates the oil. Gasoline is a poor lubricant. Oil analysis does indicate some fuel contamination, which all of us experience to greater or lesser degrees, but it is actually quite low for me, especially at this mileage.

[dp3]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I'm wondering if the OEM tuning strategy of using pig rich AFR under high rpm, high load conditions to promote cylinder cooling and help prevent detonation at higher timing may have also been protective of cylinder 3? Just speculating. My "can-o-tune" Hypertech tune carries forward that same super rich AFR philosophy, making it even richer above 5,500 rpm under load, but with more timing, as much as 18-19 degrees at redline. At a bit over 140,000 miles of pretty aggressive, "spirited" driving I still have 185-190 compression across the board. I may be leaving 10 whp on the table with the HT tune on stock turbo and pump gas compared to a custom tune with Versatune or AP, but maybe the super rich philosophy of Mazda and Hypertech, is helping save my pistons. Just don't know. On the other hand if that unburned fuel gets past the rings it contaminates the oil. Gasoline is a poor lubricant. Oil analysis does indicate some fuel contamination, which all of us experience to greater or lesser degrees, but it is actually quite low for me, especially at this mileage.

I have the Hypertech tune as well, and had wondered the same thing. One thing I noticed is that the oil had less fuel dilution of the oil w the Hypertech tune than when I checked the oil on the OEM ECU tune.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I may be leaving 10 whp on the table with the HT tune on stock turbo and pump gas compared to a custom tune with Versatune or AP, but maybe the super rich philosophy of Mazda and Hypertech, is helping save my pistons. Just don't know.

The cylinder #3 issue is present on the bone stock cars as well. Actually the more aggressive VVT and slower open loop/closed loop transitions makes it worse.
Also Hypertech was made responsible over time for damaging a few engines. With those pig rich AFRs up top and long high speed cruising on the german autobahn a lot of drivers ended up with shattered spark plugs (no, not all of them were Densos from that shitty batch that was released on the market back in 2010), butted rings and cracked cylinder walls especially on #3, and so on.

The rich AFRs at relatively low RPM and high load are usually meant to give more control over ignition, and they're used sometimes to promote turbo spool (along with more VVT timing and less ignition timing). As a result there's going to be more soot clogging the oil rings over time.

So considering the way I saw over these last few years how you take care of your car (I'm thinking about both the actual maintenance and how you drive it) your engine will be healthy for even longer with a proper tune.

Another reason why your engine is still so good after so many miles is that you added proper breathing mods which promote the heat dissipation while the tune is not squeezing too much power out of the engine. That threshold of power/torque which would result in faster wear is impossible to predict and depends quite a lot on how the owner maintains the car and how the car is driven. In your case all things that add up simply result in lower figures than whatever the threshold would be in your case.

[MSMS3]

I guess being anal-retentive and OCD about maintenance has its rewards! Good breathing on intake and exhaust side, modest, but effective tune, and short oil change intervals (typically 3,000 miles, never more than 3,500), may have helped.

Yes, we don't have any autobahns here. No opportunities to drive long distances at or near redline in 6th! I've only been above 150 mph twice in the ten years of ownership, and those were very short duration events. Never any opportunity to cruise for extended time at high rpm.

I've always run NGK plugs, so I was never exposed to the Denso problems others had.

I guess I've been a bit lucky. Maybe stumbled upon some good, compatible mod choices along the way and taken care of what I have. Even the blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn.