BT installed - setup questions

[Dano]

So I got my ATP 2871 installed without any hitches but I have a few observations and questions.

My current setup

2871 IWG
Stock Exmani
Stock boost control system
.035 pill

My trouble

No boost and I think I know why but want confirmation/ideas.

Spring pressure achieves about 11PSI of boost
K04 got about 12-13PSI [could spring pressure be root of my trouble?]
To get 16-17PSI of boost requires 99 WGDC from the factory BC
I have shortened my WGA rod about 4mm, so less preload and no difference in boost

Questions

Is the spring in the ATP turbo WGA less than a factory spring and if so WTF?

Should I go with a smaller pill like .030

Should I replace the WGA with one that has a bigger spring?

thanks

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 So I got my ATP 2871 installed without any hitches but I have a few observations and questions. My current setup 2871 IWG Stock Exmani Stock boost control system .035 pill My trouble No boost and I think I know why but want confirmation/ideas. Spring pressure achieves about 11PSI of boost K04 got about 12-13PSI [could spring pressure be root of my trouble?] To get 16-17PSI of boost requires 99 WGDC from the factory BC I have shortened my WGA rod about 4mm, so less preload and no difference in boost Questions Is the spring in the ATP turbo WGA less than a factory spring and if so WTF? Should I go with a smaller pill like .030 Should I replace the WGA with one that has a bigger spring? thanks

Those numbers sound right. You can get a spike to 20psi and taper to 17 with a .030. I tried a .025 and spiked to 23psi, but will never hold due to the IWG. I just ordered a 14psi IWG from ATP to correct this. I believe the actual spring that comes with the turbo is 8psi, so trying to hold much more than 2x at redline isn't going to happen. A new 14psi IWG from ATP is 100.00. If you preload too much it will get really inconsistent, so you will need a new IWG. I should have mine this week, and I'm interested in seeing how it behaves after the install.

[Dano]

yeah...well if ATP ships a 2871 with a fucking 8PSI spring they should be shot!

I agree, that is about what I am seeing, but I just thought surely ATP would ship the turbo with at least a 1.0 bar spring....for god sake!

ok...just put in a .030 pill and will test drive tomorrow. If this doesn't fix it and I have to order another WGA I will NOT be happy!!! LOL & FML

[djuosnteisn]

At least you don't have to worry about creep lol.

Are you 100% there are no exhaust mani leaks? That'd contribute to low boost.

Also, smaller pills will generally just increase spike, unless the larger pill was so large it was overwhelming the boost control solenoid.

My guess is the pressure in your exhaust mani is opening up the wastegate flapper due to too low of a spring. Call ATP and confirm what spring comes with your turbo.

[Dano]

LOL I guess ATP was right when they said they resolved the creep issue, just didn't say they took away the boost LOL!

I got to believe there is like a 1.0 bar or less spring in the WGA...fuckers!

I am going to call them today and see what I can find out. Prob be ordering another WGA and I will NOT be happy. That will not be easy to install but I think you can without removing the turbo again. I sure hope so...just bat and TIP removal.

Why didn't i go EWG?? hahahahah spring switch in about 5 minutes LOL

haven't test drove w the .030 pill in there but I bet it will spike to much.

[djuosnteisn]

I bet it spikes too. And i'll be pretty amazed if you get the actuator swapped out without uninstalling more than that. Those 2 bolts are pretty tough to get to, and even more difficult is that lil c-clip thing that holds the actuator rod to the flapper.

Have you tried a MBC or something just to verify whats' causing the low boost? Or (much more risky, and probably stupid, but it could tell you alot if you do it carefully), you could see how much boost you see with the boost source removed from the actuator.

... if indeed it's exhaust gas pressure opening up the IWG flapper, you would still see no more boost than you are right now, considering your seeing 99% WGDC on your solenoid. Just a slightly dangerous suggestion from your ol pal Dustin

[Dano]

hahah

already removed the c-clip so I could reduce the preload in hopes to increase boost [that = fail] so removing the clip is easy. The rest as you say, will be a bitch and if I have to remove the turbo again......i'll be running 16 PSI for awhile i guess...

I guess I don't understand how the exhaust gas could open the flapper but I am sure if I removed the boost source from the WGA I would have all kinds of boost. LOL

Right now I am not impressed with the 28. 16 PSI on my K04 has way more power than 16 PSI on the 28 so IDK what's going on. I would think PSI for PSI the 28 would feel more powerfull.

I am sure once the WG issue is resolved the 28 will come to life.

[JumpingJackson]

Yeah i would double check how you have everything plumbed. should be:

Boost signal source -> restrictor pill -> boost tee -> wastegate actuator & solenoid

You could check the operation of the WGA with a mightyvac or something to pressurize it with the car not running. Would have to disconnect the downpipe to see if its opening the flapper.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Yeah i would double check how you have everything plumbed. should be: Boost signal source -> restrictor pill -> boost tee -> wastegate actuator & solenoid You could check the operation of the WGA with a mightyvac or something to pressurize it with the car not running. Would have to disconnect the downpipe to see if its opening the flapper.

exactly how I have it plumbed

I have a vac/boost thinggy and may put that on there to measure how much spring pressure is. Wouldn't need to remove the DP can just look at the rod to see when it starts to move.

[JumpingJackson]

Thats true, or you could just get a interrupt style solenoid and not have to dick around with restrictor pills haha.

[Lex]

Removing the boost source will cause a nice big fat spike .... will be very hard to control that. An MBC may be the answer but a weak actuator may be overwhelmed by the exhaust pressure, especially since the turbine end on the turbo is not the largest.

The power difference is likely due to the lack of "punch" from that larger turbo. They feel more linear but should pull better to redline (esp as you increase the boost). The g/s and load curve will tell you exactly what's going on.

[djuosnteisn]

Dano, post up a datalog with WGDC and boost. If it's 99% from beginning to end, then i'm not sure how much spike you'd have.

And if power feels that far down, maybe there are some other issues going on.

[Lex]

I have a friend with a T3 turbo that only held 3-5psi on spring pressure alone. So we took the boost line off to see what's going on. Thing spiked uncontrollably. However, this car was not using electronic boost control and I agree with dj - with some care it's worth a shot. Changing preload did almost nothing.

[Dano]

Logs attached with multiple tabs within. log with the BT extension is the same map as before BT install.

g/s is only up from 264 on K04 to 270 on the 28 so not much more power there.

yes the power is more linear but never really gets going due to the lack of PSI I guess.

I haven't even touched TRLs yet and the map is the same map I was running before the install. I didn't see any reason to increase TRL as WGDC is maxed. I could increase TRL down low where there is some WG left but the issue is still there from 4K up IIRC.

Lemme know what you think but I think I got fucked on my WGA and it's just weak sauce.

Thanks guys!

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Lex I have a friend with a T3 turbo that only held 3-5psi on spring pressure alone. So we took the boost line off to see what's going on. Thing spiked uncontrollably. However, this car was not using electronic boost control and I agree with dj - with some care it's worth a shot. Changing preload did almost nothing.

Dunno if you remember, but on my latest setup i had boost that would start out high and taper down toward redline, and i wasn't sure what exactly was going on...

Turned out the line from my EWG wasn't silicone like i had though, and had cracked after the first drive, so i essentially had it disconnected (and proved it by taking it all the way off and doing a cautious wot pull, no change).

but yeah, definitely make it cautious if you try anything like that hahaha. Might even be worth fatten up the fuel and running wmi if you try it. MS flanged 2871 is gonna be alot different than 0.82 a/r t3 flanged 3071.

[Dano]

so if I removed the boost source and there is no change, the WGA spring just can't hold the flapper shut and it is the cause.

If I removed the boost source and I get boost spikes then it is the rate of the spring that is the issue.

both boil down to a new WGA. The difference is #1 is just a defective WGA #2 is the wrong bar spring.

Does that sound about right?

oh and BTW I ran without BC and hold 11PSI so that sounds like a 1 bar spring and I just need a bigger spring...something in the 14-16PSI range.

[Dano]

Just completed a few pulls with the .030 pill with no difference. FML

[djuosnteisn]

both are pretty much the same. If you get spikes, it's more do due to the flow and spool characteristics of your turbine, and the absence of initial control from the solenoid. Basically it'll just prove without a doubt that it's the spring for sure (which it 99% is).

Also be sure to call ATP and find out exactly what size spring it is, so you know what size you need to order. I know you see 11psi on spring pressure alone, but that's spring pressure in conjunction with exh mani pressure pushing on flapper.

[Dano]

ATP says its a 14.5 PSI spring [customer service rep] and the next size up is 22 so I can't go that route. Apparently you can't speak with tech support so I am sending them an e-mail with my issue.

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 ATP says its a 14.5 PSI spring [customer service rep] and the next size up is 22 so I can't go that route. Apparently you can't speak with tech support so I am sending them an e-mail with my issue.

haha that's funny, because when I called them, they confirmed the 8psi spring being the one they use on the turbo unless you specifically order the high boost 14psi spring. They quoted 100.00 and #308736 for the part. I guess the cust service guy who talked to you didn't get the memo!

[djuosnteisn]

Ok, and you already tried pre-loading the spring a bit?


- A MBC won't help you any if you don't see any difference with zero boost source connected to the WG actuator, which is probably the case.

- A 3 port solenoid won't help, cause your IWG actuator only has a single nipple, unlike EWG's where you have a port on both the top and bottom of the diaphragm.

- 22psi spring might help, but i'm not sure you want to increase your boost by ~55%.



So some options that will help:

- EWG (i know it's last thing you want to hear), which may be good cause you still have stock exh mani.

- Aftermarket actuator, like a forge, with more of a spring selection.

- If the actuator does indeed come apart so you can change springs, maybe you could simply supplement the spring that's in there with a different one laying around. Like if you could find a 5psi stainless spring that fits inside the ATP one, and was the right length, just run em both.

i had to do this when i was running like 24psi with the AP a long time ago. I used a left over spring from my forge bpv setup, and it fit perfectly inside my ewg spring.

- You could try to shim it a bit too.

Lastly, i don't know if your running a cat or not, but getting the post turbine exhaust pressure as low as possible will help. You have a multiplier affect from back pressure down stream of the turbo to pressure in the exh manifold.

[Lex]

It makes no sense that he can only boost 17psi on a 14psi spring. So either the actuator is shot, it's 8psi, there's a plumbing issue, or there's another problem.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 haha that's funny, because when I called them, they confirmed the 8psi spring being the one they use on the turbo unless you specifically order the high boost 14psi spring. They quoted 100.00 and #308736 for the part. I guess the cust service guy who talked to you didn't get the memo!

hard to say who is correct but ATP has 6PSI, 12-14PSI, 18PSI and 22PSI WGAs available.

Since I am getting 11PSI [no BC enabled] I doubt I have the 6PSI spring and instead have the 12-14 spring and just need to do some more preload adjustment to move it up from my 11 closer to the 14 I am guessing. I only changed it about 4mm so that may not be enough to tell. I am cooling the car off now and will shorten it by at least .5" and see if that makes a difference.

From what I understand about the adjustment the shorter the rod, the more tension on the flapper to keep it closed and the longer it will stay closed when boost pressure is applied to the WGA.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Ok, and you already tried pre-loading the spring a bit? - A MBC won't help you any if you don't see any difference with zero boost source connected to the WG actuator, which is probably the case. - A 3 port solenoid won't help, cause your IWG actuator only has a single nipple, unlike EWG's where you have a port on both the top and bottom of the diaphragm. - 22psi spring might help, but i'm not sure you want to increase your boost by ~55%. So some options that will help: - EWG (i know it's last thing you want to hear), which may be good cause you still have stock exh mani. - Aftermarket actuator, like a forge, with more of a spring selection. - If the actuator does indeed come apart so you can change springs, maybe you could simply supplement the spring that's in there with a different one laying around. Like if you could find a 5psi stainless spring that fits inside the ATP one, and was the right length, just run em both. i had to do this when i was running like 24psi with the AP a long time ago. I used a left over spring from my forge bpv setup, and it fit perfectly inside my ewg spring. - You could try to shim it a bit too. Lastly, i don't know if your running a cat or not, but getting the post turbine exhaust pressure as low as possible will help. You have a multiplier affect from back pressure down stream of the turbo to pressure in the exh manifold.

I did adjust but maybe not enough and the WGA is sealed so no way to change/add springs.

I just hope that I have the 12-14PSI spring and not enough preload. That kinda makes sence b/c I get 11PSI spring only which is at the bottom end of the 12-14PSI WGA spec.

[Dano]

ok I have some news.

Got the part number off my WGA, contacted ATP and it is a 1.0 bar=14PSI

I shortened the WGA rod about 1/2 inch and got up to 17.5-18 PSI so about .5 psi more but still at 99 WGDC. Starting to feel the power now! Some TRL tuning down low and it should rock. but I am still phucked.

My hand vac pump is at a buddy’s house so I am going to get it and do some testing without driving the car hopefully. takes awhile for it to cool off enough to adjust again LOL.

Even if I can get another .5 PSI I’ll still be unable to hit my target of 18-19PSI without raping my WG sol. FML

The bad news is that ATP doesn't have any bigger WGAs that will fit. The 18PSI WGA is a “big can” actuator and right now mine is about ¼ in from the firewall, so I doubt it will fit and I want to keep that ¼ of space. Glad I have upgraded MM.

Not sure about a Forge or other adjustable WGA, but I bet they are bigger. I know that a few guys on here have installed a Forge on a K04 but the turbo body is smaller and the WGA is further from the wall to begin with. IIRC

So does an aftermarket EBCS have a higher efficiency range so that it doesn't have to run at 99%?

Larger orifice so it can bleed more air at a lower duty cycle?

[Lex]

It may be time to play around with a cheap man's MBC before springing for an electronic one. It may be the answer, but I would eliminate the what-ifs with a $10 special before buying something electronic that bleeds more air.

What about playing with pill size some more?

[djuosnteisn]

MBC still won't do anything if he can't hit higher boost without any boost source at all. I still think a cautious wot pull with zero boost to the WG actuator is worth a shot, cause it's a free test and can say alot.

[Lex]

^ Yup why not, do as DJ said and just roll into the throttle slowly.

[Dano]

pills

well I started with a .035 which alot of guys use, now I am running a .030 and actualy didn't notice much if any difference. not seeing any spiking yet so I guess a .025 would be the next option. I am using MIG welder tips but don't know if they go down that small.

MBC

Well I love me some gear based boost tuning so MBC is out, right?

No boost source

remind me again what that will tell us?

I'll give that a go tonight.

[djuosnteisn]

basically that no form of boost control will help you run higher boost other than a higher pressure spring or reduced post turbo back pressure (which prob won't help all that much regardless).


It still seems odd your having this hard of a time making boost. It screams hardware issue, or that whatever ATP is doing to eliminate boost creep has gone way over board.

[Lex]

Maybe they ported the hell out of the wastegate??

[djuosnteisn]

Like doubled the flapper size, hahahahaha.


Dano did you happen to shoot any close up pics of the new flapper and the turbine inlet?

[Dano]

I agree with the hardware issue...I am running TMIC so there are only 4 connections and they be tight mang!

[djuosnteisn]

Did you pressure test the intake tract from the turbo inlet? And listen for leaks?

[Dano]

no pics with the flapper open

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Did you pressure test the intake tract from the turbo inlet? And listen for leaks?

negetive....but my trims are normal actually a bit on the rich side and I think my O2 is going south ...got a second CEL with cat effency bank 1 today. This BT install is becomming fail LOL

[djuosnteisn]

Na, i get that o2 efficiency cel all the time. It's not big deal.... unless you actually have a cat. I'm catless.



Also, a boost leak could be sealed during vacuum, and a barn door during boost. A pressure check is really the only way to find em, not just ltft's.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Na, i get that o2 efficiency cel all the time. It's not big deal.... unless you actually have a cat. I'm catless. Also, a boost leak could be sealed during vacuum, and a barn door during boost. A pressure check is really the only way to find em, not just ltft's.

K and I do have a cat

Primary O2 was covered in oily chit so I carefully wiped it off...long story short when I fired the car up for the first time my STFT was -25 and idle AFR at 10. removed O2, blew it out gently, MAF cleaner on it, installed it back in and FT eventually settled down as chit was burned off the sensor.

Now i guess it may be giving up.

Don't you have a thread somewhere about the setup of a pressure testing device?

[djuosnteisn]

HOW TO FIND A BOOST LEAK - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 / Mazda Atenza Forum

GL!

[Lex]

You'll also hear a leak. If it's a large one it will be very obvious.

[Dano]

shortened the WGA rod another 1/2 inch[ its now at its minimum] and on the way to Home Depot to get my leak testing stuff I hit 18-19 and 20 PSI! Haven't looked at the logs but I still bet WGDC is pegged.

stay tuned...

edit: WOT 4-5th gear log attached.

boost is now on target mostly just at the expence of my WG Sol. Still work to do.

I'll test for leaks later tonight.

thanks guys

[djuosnteisn]

Yeah man, all your doing is essentially increasing the spring tension. If you take a 10psi spring and compress it half way, you now have a 20psi spring (afaik, i'm pretty sure spring constant is linear).


This will work, but it's not gonna leave much head room.

I hope you have a boost leak, cause i was running like 21psi on old school IWG with no problem at all, and when i made my custom SRI and temps dropped, i was running 22-23 towards redline.

Just seems silly that your struggling to run higher boost on a bigger turbo.

You'll get if figured out man!