BT installed - setup questions

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 That is actually good news. We just need either an EBCD. Int mode or larger 18PSI wga

Were you saying that the 18psi wga is huge and might not fit? I too forsee some hammer love to the cowl if it is any bigger!

[Dano]

Perrin can run 2 port int mode single nip actuator

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 Were you saying that the 18psi wga is huge and might not fit? I too forsee some hammer love to the cowl if it is any bigger!

Yup. Waiting to hear back from ATP on dims fore the WGA

[Lex]

Ok, so now you know that you need to bleed more boost - dont get a different WGA. You just need to get a solenoid that bleeds more, or in the meantime put a small "bleeder" valve before the WG. That should be enough to allow your solenoid to control boost higher than 18-20 psi.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn right, what you mention here is bleed mode. no way to run interrupt mode.

Why not?

The boost pressure source is hooked to the common port, normally open to the IWG actuator, and normally closed to the intake.


When the solenoid is not energized, 100% of the the boost signal goes to the actuator
When the solenoid is energized, 100% of the boost signal gets vented to the intake instead, which interrupts the boost signal from hitting the IWG actuator.

^-- I have just described a interrupt style boost control system.


A bleed type setup the boost signal is *always* in direct contact with the IWG actuator there is nothing directly interrupting the signal the actuator sees, you achieve higher boost pressure by bleeding off a portion of the boost signal so the the actuator is not seeing all of your boost signal allowing you to run higher than wastegate boost pressures.

Example:

boost source -> restrictor pill -> boost tee -> IWG actuator
perpendicular part of boost tee going to the solenoid which bleeds off pressure

[djuosnteisn]

Also, Jchouin, you have a more recent ATP 2871 with the "new and improved" ported IWG, right?


Sounds to me like a MBC may work for you guys for the time being, until you figure out a better solenoid arrangement or upgrade the hardware.

I guess we should applaud ATP's porting skills lol.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex Ok, so now you know that you need to bleed more boost - dont get a different WGA. You just need to get a solenoid that bleeds more, or in the meantime put a small "bleeder" valve before the WG. That should be enough to allow your solenoid to control boost higher than 18-20 psi.

Yup. But more tuning required vs a new WGA. I'll probably go w the Perrin pro

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Why not? The boost pressure source is hooked to the common port, normally open to the IWG actuator, and normally closed to the intake. When the solenoid is not energized 100% of the the boost signal goes to the actuator When the solenoid is energized 100% of the boost signal gets vented to the intake instead, which interrupts the boost signal from hitting the IWG actuator. ^-- I have just described a interrupt style boost control system. A bleed type setup the boost signal is *always* in direct contact with the IWG actuator there is nothing directly interrupting the signal the actuator sees, you achieve higher boost pressure by bleeding off a portion of the boost signal so the the actuator is not seeing all of your boost signal allowing you to run higher than wastegate boost pressures.

I guess IMO a true interrupt setup utilizes both the top and bottom ports of an external wastegate, applying boost pressure to the top port during spool, to hold it shut hard (above any spring pressure), and when desired boost is reached, the pressure is switched to the lower WG port to open the WG.

I would think of the 3 port solenoid setup as you described, simply as acting as the "T" for you, especially since (in a working condition, not dano's), it probably doesn't slam between one side an the other like a PWM, but instead settles somewhere in the middle like 70/30, or 40/60, thus it'd behave much like a "bleed mode" T setup.


Difference of vernacular i guess.

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Also, Jchouin, you have a more recent ATP 2871 with the "new and improved" ported IWG, right? Sounds to me like a MBC may work for you guys for the time being, until you figure out a better solenoid arrangement or upgrade the hardware. I guess we should applaud ATP's porting skills lol.

Not sure on that one. I picked up the turbo in late Feb this year after my boom, so not sure if is a revised version or not. With the mbc, I have been able to command slightly more boost with smaller pills, at the expense of bigger spikes. Where the 030 spikes 20psi and drops to 16/17, the 025 spikes 23psi and drops to 18 by redline. Isn't that the basic function of an mbc? Providing varying degrees of boost source restriction?

[Dano]

DJ

So you think my factory BC, which BTW is only a few months old, isn't working correctly and isn't bleeding off enough boost?

Anyway I guess it doesn't matter, I am not buying another factory BC either way. The Perrin will prob a bitch to setup but I don't see any other choice. Perrin indicates that all the boost related tables will likely need to be cut in 1/2, Comp, dynamics, targets and of course WGDC. IDK for sure but that's what they say due to the speed the EBCD works in int mode the ECU will overcompensate otherwise.

[djuosnteisn]

I guess so. I dunno, and pretty busy at work. I'll think more on it tonight.

[Dano]

don't strain your brain...process of elim has already proven the BC can't bleed enough LOL

Edit:

1) I have no boost leaks
2) WGA is holding 14PSI
3) Jch's WG stays closed with no boost source
4) many pills have been tried

I'd say that leaves the factory BC. no?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn it probably doesn't slam between one side an the other like a PWM, but instead settles somewhere in the middle like 70/30, or 40/60, thus it'd behave much like a "bleed mode" T setup.

Have you tested this?


You have explicit control over wether the actuator sees boost pressure or not. Which is controlled by what % of the time you are energizing the solenoid (WGDC). If you energize the solenoid 100% of the time, the actuator wont see any boost pressure. You cannot achieve that with a bleed type system.

Interrupt means you have a solenoid directly between the boost pressure signal and the actuator. (requires 3 ports)

Bleed means there is nothing directly controlling whether the actuator gets a boost pressure signal or not, just how much of it is getting which is determined by how much of the pressure it can bleed off. (only requires 2 ports, but can also be done with a 3 port but is not needed) Even if you energize the 2 port solenoid 100% of the time the actuator will still see boost pressure.

Obviously there are differences between running interrupt on a IWG and a EWG. But its still interrupt and not bleed and there is a difference between the 2 on a IWG setup. (Better precision, faster response, no need to dick around with various sizes of restrictor pills)

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 Not sure on that one. I picked up the turbo in late Feb this year after my boom, so not sure if is a revised version or not. With the mbc, I have been able to command slightly more boost with smaller pills, at the expense of bigger spikes. Where the 030 spikes 20psi and drops to 16/17, the 025 spikes 23psi and drops to 18 by redline. Isn't that the basic function of an mbc? Providing varying degrees of boost source restriction?

ATP made the port change Jan 09 acording to them so you have the newer model.

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Have you tested this? You have explicit control over wether the actuator sees boost pressure or not. Which is controlled by what % of the time you are energizing the solenoid (WGDC). If you energize the solenoid 100% of the time, the actuator wont see any boost pressure. You cannot achieve that with a bleed type system. Interrupt means you have a solenoid directly between the boost pressure signal and the actuator. (requires 3 ports) Bleed means there is nothing directly controlling whether the actuator gets a boost pressure signal or not, just how much of it is getting which is determined by how much of the pressure it can bleed off. (only requires 2 ports, but can also be done with a 3 port but is not needed) Obviously there are differences between running interrupt on a IWG and a EWG. But its still interrupt and not bleed.

I guess just say it like this:

to use interrupt you need 3 ports on the Sol BUT all three don't have to be connected to something. In the case of a single port WGA one port on the EBCS will VTA.

[djuosnteisn]

Proof? Do a datalog. Do you see you WGDC banging end to end?

Regardless, way to go on standing your ground. You really showed me.




but seriously, i understand what your saying, and i'm fine with it... I honestly don't give a rats ass lol, cause i know how the damn things work, regardless of what you want to call the various setups.

[JumpingJackson]

Yeah you can VTA the normally closed port on a 3 port solenoid in interrupt mode, but if you have a stock style intake which has the nipple which would connect to the stock 2 port solenoid you might as well connect the normally closed port to that nipple as you would have to cap off the nipple otherwise. (unless you want a vacuum leak)

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Lex Ok, so now you know that you need to bleed more boost - dont get a different WGA. You just need to get a solenoid that bleeds more, or in the meantime put a small "bleeder" valve before the WG. That should be enough to allow your solenoid to control boost higher than 18-20 psi.

what about running a tee between the solenoid and the wg, vta via an additional pill, like the 025 to bleed off?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Proof? Do a datalog. Do you see you WGDC banging end to end? Regardless, way to go on standing your ground. You really showed me. but seriously, i understand what your saying, and i'm fine with it... I honestly don't give a rats ass lol, cause i know how the damn things work, regardless of what you want to call the various setups.

LOL, im just bored and in a debating mood.

Yes obviously as you cycle the solenoid on/off there could be a period where all 3 ports are connected at the same time. im not qualified to answer that id have to ask around. (perrin,grimmspeed, lots of people make 3 port solenoids)

I just didn't want people thinking that you cant run a 3 port solenoid in interrupt mode on a IWG, because you can, and it has its advantages and is a worth while setup and much easier to tune for people with aftermarket turbos.

I know this because on my old ATP GT2871R setup i spent a fair amount of time finding out the right size restrictor pill to use with the stock bleed setup. Then i wanted to turn up the boost more later on but i was already at 95% duty cycle.. So if i wanted more boost i would have to get a smaller restrictor pill and retune my boost curve all over again. i also burnt my hand on hot turbos/exhaust manifolds several times while popping off boost lines. I think i went through like 5-6 different size pills to get where i wanted

I would have rather spent $100 on a 3 port ebcs and just change some values in ATR instead of going through that all over again. Which is why im such a big fan of interrupt mode 3 port solenoids haha.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 what about running a tee between the solenoid and the wg, vta via an additional pill, like the 025 to bleed off?

already building one right now LOL

Great suggestion Lex!!!! In the frey of posts I almost missed it. I may save 118 bones. Will start out with a .030 pill and go from there.

can't we all just get along?

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 already building one right now LOL Great suggestion Lex!!!! I may save 118 bones. Will start out with a .030 pill and go from there.

haha my construction has started as well Like a kid at Christmas...

[Dano]

yeah...I think I'll take my .030 out of my hot pipe feed and go back to .035 then put a tee between my WGA and BC with the .030 VTA and see what happens. This way i am not changing the boost signal to the WGA but "helping" the factory BC do its job.

Worst case we end up with some creep but changing pill size should solve it.

[Jchouin1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 yeah...I think I'll take my .030 out of my hot pipe feed and go back to .035 then put a tee between my WGA and BC with the .030 VTA and see what happens. This way i am not changing the boost signal to the WGA but "helping" the factory BC do its job. Worst case we end up with some creep but changing pill size should solve it.

The only problem I see is the boost source bleeding out through the tee before the solenoid gets a reading. I'm looking at it assembled now...seems like it could happen.

[Dano]

well right now the BC is getting too much signal. The pill size will be key and I am using welding tips and don't know how small they go. I currently have 035 and 030. having 025 and 020 would be good.

Edit: well if you look at the size of the BC ports they are huge so I doubt a t before them with an 030 pill will hurt

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 already building one right now LOL Great suggestion Lex!!!! In the frey of posts I almost missed it. I may save 118 bones. Will start out with a .030 pill and go from there. can't we all just get along?

Essentially that's creating a "non-adjustable manual boost controller"

I would disconnect the solenoid from the WG and just play with some of these pill sizes to see what ballpark your boost is in with different sizes. Once you're at 18ish or so, connect the solenoid back up and fine tune.

Also, it's hot out now. If you set the boost too high with the bleeder T, you will overboost when it's cold. That's the downfall of MBCs. So give yourself a couple of psi (2-3) from the most boost you want to run on the setup and let the solenoid do the rest of the work.

EDIT: Once you're happy with the pill size boost control, route the VTA bleed back into the intake (same place the stock solenoid routes back in using another T without a restriction). You don't want a boost leak.

[Dano]

yes sir, it could work but getting all the pill sizes needed may be alot to ask.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 yes sir, it could work but getting all the pill sizes needed may be alot to ask.

Try what you have at hand and see where you're at.

[Jchouin1]

Results! The load moved up quite a bit, and boost held a little higher, longer. This is with a 025 bleed with an 030 pill from the boost source. I will bump it to an 030 bleed and see what happens!

[Dano]

u def need more bleed I am thinking like a 040 or 045. it is drive time here so not easy to test, I have my setup in place and will test later.

Boost source 030
Bleed 035

yeah I already changed my mind...i think we need much more bleed before the BC but what do I know

[Dano]

one thing that does occur to me is that will this little "fix" not cause a vacuum leak? Doesn't a purpose built BC have a one way valve built in and so will only allow pressure out and not allow vacuum to pull air in?

[Dano]

ya ever feel like your posting to yourself....

Anywho...my setup is working fairly well considering I have done no TRL tuning.

my current setup is

Boost source .030
Bleed .035

Log attached. hit target easily and only a few instances of 99 WGCD which may be tuned out with TRL and/or WGDC table changes.

All in all it works but I think it's a vacuum leak so not a long term solution without a check valve of some sort.

Edit: WMI enabled here and NO tuning from my K04 map so this thing will R-O-C-K one day. I was on an off the throttle so things look dicy but I am sure I can easily bust 300 g/s and 220 load before I am done. g/s on the K04 was 164 IIRC now at 197

[Lex]

^ Dano read my edit:

EDIT: Once you're happy with the pill size boost control, route the VTA bleed back into the intake (same place the stock solenoid routes back in using another T without a restriction). You don't want a boost leak.

Nice flow at close to 300 g/s!

[Dano]

but of course....just like the factory BC....i am dumb sometimes

I would like to re-thank Lex for his usefull post.

now off to siliconeintakes to order some hose....

Thanks again Lex...I doubt I'll need an EBCS [+ $120 in pocket] and it will save me ALOT of tuning doing it this way. I think I may be spiking a bit and so will change out my .030 boost source pill for an .035 and mabe go up to a .040 for my bleed.

[Jchouin1]

new log of 030 pill and 030 bleed. better than previous, but still more fall off toward redline than I want. maybe I need to preload the wg. I will switch to 035 for both and give it a whirl.

**big thanks to evreyone contributing to this, and thanks Dano for starting the thread! I've accomplished more today with boost control in the last few hours than I have in the last month with ATR! I knew I joined this forum for a reason

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Jchouin1 new log of 030 pill and 030 bleed. better than previous, but still more fall off toward redline than I want. maybe I need to preload the wg. I will switch to 035 for both and give it a whirl. **big thanks to evreyone contributing to this, and thanks Dano for starting the thread! I've accomplished more today with boost control in the last few hours than I have in the last month with ATR! I knew I joined this forum for a reason

Looks like the boost control duty cycle is falling off after 5500 RPM for you - so it might be a setting in ATR/the tune bringing the boost down. 12.35 AFR is a little on the lean side for me as well. The 220 load looks nice as do the flow numbers.

So GT28 guys now that you're seeing the same boost as the poor K04, how does the GT compare?

[Dano]

Well to quote an early quote of mine

" holymutherfuckinsonofabitch"

With my "left over" tune this bitch will really put you back in the seat! Spool is slower and expected but, I think I can fix alot of that with AFR, timing, and TRL tuning once I settle on a bleed pill size.

Top end....well I haven't found it yet LOL. The K04 was done at 5K and you could feel it. I shifted at 6 "back in the ole days" but now I have hit rev limit, 7200, a few times b/c I didn't know what my RPM was cuz it was still haulin ass!!!!. The "pull" dont stop!

What can we rev a stock motor up to? hahahahahah

All that to say I'm lovin it!

thanks again Lex, DJ for the most usefull coaching!

I know alot of guys on here are seeking the "dyno queen" HP numbers but I hope to shed some light on the fun a mid sized turbo can be on a DD street car.

[Jchouin1]

I agree. I was protuned with my K04, 291whp @19psi, and I thought that felt pretty fast, but the car is night and day different with the 28. I will be happy to end up in the 340whp-360whp range, and be left with a great all around driver with plenty of power. I don't plan on adding meth, so I'll take the boost/spark advance up within the limits of my current fuel delivery, and then enjoy the car! The sound of the exmani is growing on me. I wasn't sure how I felt about it when I first fired it up, but the sound is really throaty under load, and not overly loud. I had an offer to trade straight for a 3076 a while back with a guy who wanted my turbo for autox, but I'm glad I didn't. I enjoy having a wad of power down low! This turbo won't break any records, but it makes for a fun ass ride! I still may do a full 3" intake though, since I have more room after the battery relocation. We'll see

[Jchouin1]

Hey Dano, what do your boost rpm comp tables A&B look like? I drilled out an 035 bleed to maybe an 040, and I saw 232 load and 301 g/s, with a 21.6psi spike, but boost fell again at 5500. I'm going to change boost comp in each gear at 5500+ to 1.10 to see if that helps, but I have never messed with the rpm comp table. I will also try to preload my wga today if I can clear up some time.

[Dano]

S2 fmic v105 Cobb OTS values. I'v never touched them. Am getting a 040 & 045 pills today for the bleed and will test on Friday.

[Dano]

Are u using TRL to tune boost?

If so have you increased it above 5k to see if boost goes up?

Course if WGDC is already pegged then you need a bigger bleed pill.

[djuosnteisn]

You guys are bleeding bad lol.