Cosworth/ Godspeed intake manifolds

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by driver311 So you can swap the 2.5 head onto a disi 2.3? Am I reading that right?

I was referring to the 2.3 mzr head. I really doubt the 2.5's head will work without a ton of machine work.

[RhoadBlock]

The 2.5L head is identical to the 2.3L except for having one extra oil port. Read thru the link I posted a few posts ago. At least that's for the DTEC. But I don't see the MZR being much different but I haven't seen them in person.


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[NJSPEED3]

I still haven't read your link but wouldn't the chamber's not match up? How could the chamber on the head of the 2.3 and 2.5 be the same lol? I guess I'll read the link now hahaha

[Tokay444]

If they're getting the extra displacement with stroke and shorter rods, and all else is equal...
But I have no experience with either engine or their dtec variants.

[NJSPEED3]

ugh I'm not reading all that shit, lol. Assuming they kept the same bore size as the 2.3l than I can see how this can be easily done.

[RhoadBlock]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 ugh I'm not reading all that shit, lol. Assuming they kept the same bore size as the 2.3l than I can see how this can be easily done.

Shit today's been a real off day for me. My mind is still on vacation. The 2.5 is ported 1.5mm over the 2.3.
2.3L - 87.5mm x 94mm (bore x stroke)
2.5L - 89mm x 100mm


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[driver311]

So besides the oil port they should be interchangable????

[RhoadBlock]

Originally Posted by driver311 So besides the oil port they should be interchangable????

Besides the oil port and boring the block out to 89mm, they should be interchangeable. As well as other shit you'll have to do for a full PI swap.

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 If they're getting the extra displacement with stroke and shorter rods, and all else is equal... But I have no experience with either engine or their dtec variants.

2.5 has a 89.0mm bore, 2.3 has a 87.5 mm bore, so bores are different sizes, crank stroke is slightly different also, 2.3= 94 mm (3.7 in) stroke and 2.5=100.0 mm (3.94 in) stroke, and the con rods.

You could match the bore but the block would have to be sleeved with something like a darton mid sleeve set up, the oe 2mm sleeve cannot be bored beyond 88mm without totally killing it's intergrity

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by RhoadBlock Shit today's been a real off day for me. My mind is still on vacation. The 2.5 is ported 1.5mm over the 2.3. 2.3L - 87.5mm x 94mm (bore x stroke) 2.5L - 89mm x 100mm Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ugh that sucks, I figured the bores were going to be off size. I think you guys are better off just using the 2.3l na head. I mean think about it After you bore out the block to a 2.5liter and slap on a different head, you end up with a completely different motor, lmao.

[Tabasco69]

Yeah pretty much....way cheaper to just do the head work to the 2.3head....lol cheap...no such fucking thing.

[driver311]

So the 2.3 na head will work then? If so I could pick up an na head, do some work to it and then run the cosworth intake manifold? The exhaust mani bolt up to the na head? Sorry for all the questions I guess If I just went out and looked a lil closer at my head I could answer some of my guestions LOL Thanks guys.

[kmac]

Idk why anyone would want to switch from a disi head to a mzr head. Just me maybe , but I'd rather wait on the inj and add an auxiliary fuel system to compensate. There's only a few reasons this platform is making so muck power on these stock and atp turbos and that's the Di doing It's job. Di allows u to have a better angle on the intake valve ( in porting It's called raising the roof, you're not eating up runner volume with dense fuel , lower egt , less hc eating up exhaust volume as well as temps keeping expansion at a minimum also allowing more to escape in a smaller space. If someone does thus I would like to see the outcome though .

[Chimmike]

I also think a good set of production cams could allow the DISI MZR breathe really well. Even with stock IM, if that were the case.

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by driver311 So the 2.3 na head will work then? If so I could pick up an na head, do some work to it and then run the cosworth intake manifold? The exhaust mani bolt up to the na head? Sorry for all the questions I guess If I just went out and looked a lil closer at my head I could answer some of my guestions LOL Thanks guys.

That's crazy talk man....you would be giving up di, plus this would make your ecm incompatible, no more tuning with a gameboy, trust me this manifold is not worth it, the grass only seems to be greener on the other side of the fence....it isn't trust me, have a custom fabed im made you'll be way better off in the end.....I know your stock one sucks ass, looks like it has no plenum what so ever, just a shallow common collector to all of the runners by what I have seen.... but nothing more boost can't offset.

Kmac if you are reading through this thread did you ever get that larger tb to work?, I has been suggested to me to try out a mzr6 v6 tb?

[kmac]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 That's crazy talk man....you would be giving up di, plus this would make your ecm incompatible, no more tuning with a gameboy, trust me this manifold is not worth it, the grass only seems to be greener on the other side of the fence....it isn't trust me, have a custom fabed im made you'll be way better off in the end.....I know your stock one sucks ass, looks like it has no plenum what so ever, just a shallow common collector to all of the runners by what I have seen.... but nothing more boost can't offset. Kmac if you are reading through this thread did you ever get that larger tb to work?, I has been suggested to me to try out a mzr6 v6 tb?

Yeah I got it to work after extensive modification. For me it was worth it because it works , bit if u don't have extensive knowledge in the field and good with electrical , I wouldn't say It's not worth doing. Most likely it won't work with the v6 . I think It's the same as the ford one and the voltage for tp1 and tp2 do not correspond. I would recommend the Chrysler one , but It's a pita to get the throttle right . From what I hear It's still not the smoothest either on initial tip in. I'm looking into another one as we sorely for my new manifold design that's going to blow my last version away. Should be around 310 cfm or higher per runner with the throttle body mounted. Last version was 301 to 303 highest at 28" of water pb the flow bench. If the new one works I'll let everyone know , but as of now I'll keep it on the low so if it doesn't work the only one to wast money will be me. It should mimic out tp output identically.

[mason]

Originally Posted by kmac Idk why anyone would want to switch from a disi head to a mzr head. Just me maybe , but I'd rather wait on the inj and add an auxiliary fuel system to compensate. There's only a few reasons this platform is making so muck power on these stock and atp turbos and that's the Di doing It's job. Di allows u to have a better angle on the intake valve ( in porting It's called raising the roof, you're not eating up runner volume with dense fuel , lower egt , less hc eating up exhaust volume as well as temps keeping expansion at a minimum also allowing more to escape in a smaller space. If someone does thus I would like to see the outcome though .

i feel the same, i want my direct injection! DI was made for turbo cars! Well to some point!

the added power befor the turbo gets going along with everything kmac said. GM made the cobalt turbo car DI for the benifits of DI.

there will be better DI solutions soon.....

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by chimmike I also think a good set of production cams could allow the DISI MZR breathe really well. Even with stock IM, if that were the case.

Agreed, but cam companies still consider us a 'niche' platform and won't commit to making us cams.

[dooderek]

not if we dress up as ghosts, and burn a lower case t on their lawn. t for .......

















time to make cams

[mason]

soon as we prove that 30 psi is no big deal on the stock block! then they will flock to us!
we need to get more high power cars out there layin down hard track times putting up bad ass dyno runs ect..... and im thinking more will open up to the DI systems.....

[pinkcheese]

Those pictures were taken by TopSpeed which they currently specialize in ford focus's, The focus 2.3 duratec engine does not have VVT. But Ford made a revision in the new 2.5L heads for VVT. The extra oil port is most likely for VVt as this is the common piece missing. And for those of you who haven't seen a DISI or VVT engine for that matter pulled apart they have that oiling hole.

The Disi does fit the MZR/duratec heads 2.3 and 2.5. I know for a fact that the 2.3L head needs modification done (oil passage ways, and coolant) to fit the disi bottom end, This information was given to me by a drag racing team out of northern VA who use this block in a tubular drag car. I've seen these engines first hand so it is doable. The 2.5L does have widened oiling and cooling ports which are the primary machining needed for this to work. So it does potentially have the ability to be a direct replacement I hopefully will know here shortly once I can get a hold of one for cheap.

[Tabasco69]

as far as cams go I think crower will regrind/rework the oe bumpsticks...call them up.

[RhoadBlock]

Regrinds and shit isn't what we want tho. We want full fledged attention. Companies to make DISI specific cams - street & aggressive race/power options. We want DISI specific injectors. DISI specific shit. It's the future. But no tuning companies want to move the fuck forward. Plus the shitty economy isn't helping many of them take the plunge for major R&D for DI products.

I'd love to keep the DISI after all that's been happening the past 5 years or so. Low 11s and 500+ whp is still impressive. But I don't want to sit at the edge of the wall waiting for more shit. I'll sacrifice some tq with my PI build. AWD will make up for it off the line. And a small shot of laughing gas can make up for the low end tq too. I love the aftermarket support it's already got - for such a (relatively) simple engine swap. By the time I finish this build I'll be ready for a used 5.0 anyway.

[4G63]

Originally Posted by RhoadBlock Regrinds and shit isn't what we want tho. We want full fledged attention. Companies to make DISI specific cams - street & aggressive race/power options. We want DISI specific injectors. DISI specific shit. It's the future. But no tuning companies want to move the fuck forward.

Honestly the reason is because of how many unicorns there are. If there's one thing I've noticed about this platform as opposed to when I switched to the Evo it's that people spend tons of money to have their cars sit around and never make it to the track while Evo people seem to be at the track non stop. Don't get me wrong people like; Erich, driver311, doubleflusher, etc have made great numbers and made it to the track and done extremely well.

I guess is what I'm saying is that to me in the performance industry companies want to see TRACK TIMES not dyno queen cars who never take a ride down the dragstrip. I guarantee that next spring/summer if all the unicorns come out to play and we get 25, 50, 100 etc Speeds in the low 12s, 11s, and shit even 10s then companies will be banging down doors to help this platform out. As seen by Geoff from Full Race in this thread. Don't give up man ur car is one my my favorite speeds of all time, patience is a virtue

Thread way off track my bad! Dj keep doing what ur doing makes me wish I had stayed around

[Chimmike]

Companies don't give two shits what the track times are. They care how much money they could make. And there are plenty of MZR DISI guys who would buy cams and intake manifolds. Shit, even stock turbo guys would buy cams.

[zpele]

Originally Posted by chimmike Companies don't give two shits what the track times are. They care how much money they could make. And there are plenty of MZR DISI guys who would buy cams and intake manifolds. Shit, even stock turbo guys would buy cams.

Do they make my car louder? I'd buy em

[RhoadBlock]

No but you get that cool ass engine choking sound. lope lope lope lope lope lope

[kmac]

Idt do cars really lump too much. I think It's very little from what I hear.

[Chimmike]

Originally Posted by kmac Idt do cars really lump too much. I think It's very little from what I hear.

JWT S4's in a 91 SE-R loped enough to notice, considering they're mild-ish cams........it was pretty sweet, heh.
Most of us have increased idle though, so probably not too noticeable.

[MSFer87]

FYCOHN (FUCK YOUR CAMMED OUT HONDA NIGGA) For those who have never heard a cammed out 4 cyl before

GSR with Toda VTEC Killers - YouTube

GSR with Toda VTEC Killers - YouTube

[kmac]

I know cars lump , Di doesn't lump as much . @Erich has cams ask him . He would be most knowledgeable on this.

[RhoadBlock]

There's a couple better sounding cammed SRT4s & Evos on youtube that actually have an exhaust on them so they don't sound so raspy.

SRT-4 Cammed Idle, 2-Step, and Rev - YouTube

SRT-4 Cammed Idle, 2-Step, and Rev - YouTube

EVO VIII startup with HKS 280 cams - YouTube

EVO VIII startup with HKS 280 cams - YouTube

Orrrr you can do like I did and fry your MAF sensor. Your car will run like shit but it sounds fucking rad at start up & idle lol

[djuosnteisn]

One thing to remember with cams, is that you'd have to buy a set of cam followers (or several sets of varying thickness), and make sure tappet clearance is in spec. It wouldn't be as simple as just "dropping them in"... at least not if you wanna do it right.

But beyond that... it shouldn't be toooooo difficult.

[RhoadBlock]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn One thing to remember with cams, is that you'd have to buy a set of cam followers (or several sets of varying thickness), and make sure tappet clearance is in spec. It wouldn't be as simple as just "dropping them in"... at least not if you wanna do it right. But beyond that... it shouldn't be toooooo difficult.

Right but cam companies who have been doing it decades shouldn't have a big problem making them. Even for DI imo.

1. Figure out a profile that would be more aggressive. Just an aggressive street profile. Not even a crazy stage3/4 drag profile...yet.
2. Make the cams and provide an appropriately sized set of followers for them. Install them for R&D.
3. Have PERM play around with tuning for them.
4. Revise if needed. R&D with PERM again.
5. Mass produce.
6. Enjoy thousands of dollars from MSF members.

[djuosnteisn]

Hahaha, PERM would be happy to do that.... :phillyb:

Originally Posted by RhoadBlock 2. Make the cams and provide an appropriately sized set of followers for them. Install them for R&D.

Only thing is this... I don't think they'd be able to provide followers with the cams. It's something that will be unique on each car AFAIK. You'd have to plasti gauge the gap between the cam lobe and follower, and choose a tappet thickness based on that. Every motor has varying sizes from cylinder to cylinder, and cam lobe to cam lobe. That's why it's so important to keep tappets in order whenever your tearing down and rebuilding a motor.


But i agree... minor detail only. And it really wouldn't be that hard to do.

[mason]

someone put a tread up with the everyone to sign up and start emailing them to different cam companies?

unless this has already been done..... sounds like a good idea to me.

also i remember i talked to this dude cobb told me about when i was ready to tune my big turbo setup and he wouldnt tune me at all because i was on the stock block.

he had no idea the hurdles we made with tuning ect.... and im sure thats the case alot with aftermarket companies. they have no idea were we are at with this platform. they gave up in 2008 and havent looked back.

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by RhoadBlock Right but cam companies who have been doing it decades shouldn't have a big problem making them. Even for DI imo. 1. Figure out a profile that would be more aggressive. Just an aggressive street profile. Not even a crazy stage3/4 drag profile...yet. 2. Make the cams and provide an appropriately sized set of followers for them. Install them for R&D. 3. Have PERM play around with tuning for them. 4. Revise if needed. R&D with PERM again. 5. Mass produce. 6. Enjoy thousands of dollars from MSF members.

[Tokay444]

I'd buy vvt killer cams in a heart beat.

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by RhoadBlock Regrinds and shit isn't what we want tho. We want full fledged attention. Companies to make DISI specific cams - street & aggressive race/power options. We want DISI specific injectors. DISI specific shit. It's the future. But no tuning companies want to move the fuck forward. Plus the shitty economy isn't helping many of them take the plunge for major R&D for DI products. I'd love to keep the DISI after all that's been happening the past 5 years or so. Low 11s and 500+ whp is still impressive. But I don't want to sit at the edge of the wall waiting for more shit. I'll sacrifice some tq with my PI build. AWD will make up for it off the line. And a small shot of laughing gas can make up for the low end tq too. I love the aftermarket support it's already got - for such a (relatively) simple engine swap. By the time I finish this build I'll be ready for a used 5.0 anyway.

I feel your pain man, I 'm in a similar boat, stupid simple shit like a dual port fuel rail.....had to get one from bum fuck england..........If I owned a Honda if wouldn't be "if" it was made but what color do I want it in.

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Hahaha, PERM would be happy to do that.... :phillyb: Only thing is this... I don't think they'd be able to provide followers with the cams. It's something that will be unique on each car AFAIK. You'd have to plasti gauge the gap between the cam lobe and follower, and choose a tappet thickness based on that. Every motor has varying sizes from cylinder to cylinder, and cam lobe to cam lobe. That's why it's so important to keep tappets in order whenever your tearing down and rebuilding a motor. But i agree... minor detail only. And it really wouldn't be that hard to do.

other then the gear drive for the mech fuel pump both mzr heads are similar, so I will share with you part of what is involve using cams with larger lobes-the main factor is that larger buckets have to be used, and the head has to be machined accordingly to accomodate them....that is where it began and ended, any profile beyond a mild duration is probable but costly as hell....If you really want radical cam setup using pi head with a disi block I would call PCS and ask to speak to Russ (engineer/crewchief), they did it, they also ran staged injectors.