crank case breather filter

[bombdotcom]

hey i was wodnering about gettin a breather filter for the crankcase...if im not mistaken i think whoosh has one,

what are the pros and cons to it?

something like this... K&N Crankcase Breather Filter (EVO/DSM) - Modern Automotive Performance

thanks guys

[bova]

that would be the valve cover breather filter

[pidass]

what does this accomplish?

[mdogg]

It disconnects the valve cover (potential source of oil) from the intake/inlet.

[Haltech]

On some MAF cars, its also notorious for pulling in unmetered air, causing you to lean out a bit.

[DaleNixon]

A nice counter to the rich condition from running a BOV VTA!

[MTuning]

if you are venting the crankcase than it would be beneficial. you probably wont be using a breather filter to accomplish this task though.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by MTuning if you are venting the crankcase than it would be beneficial. you probably wont be using a breather filter to accomplish this task though.

An open breather filter most certainly vents the air/pressure from the valve cover, I'm not sure I understand your comment.

[MTuning]

peace out

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by MTuning majority of the turbulence occur in the bottom end. too much will cause blow by and increase engine temp which will wear/tear components. the valve cover provides poor air flow due to components acting as a bottle neck. As the valve cover vents, the block is still creating these turbulence. I'm not saying it won't vent from the valve cover but its far better tapping the source. too much pressure with the bottle necks will cause problems. this is especially true in FI vehicles. i'm pretty sure a few members had this problem already. and if you were pointing out the breather filter..i just meant i would use an open CC on the block instead of a breather filter.

if you use an open OCC on the block of this car vs. using vacuum from the IM to pull "the nasty".....you will be the one with issues

[MTuning]

peace out

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by MTuning i was merely elaborating for mdogg's breather question. I do not have a solution for this on the MZR yet. This has been my solution on my past builds to prevent turbulence when i turn up boost. i know 'someone' has done the OCC. i know there was a problem. i'm not going to get into that because my knowledge on the MZR is not up to par with my other cars. This motor seems to be very picky. do you have time to drop some knowledge on me?

my set up isn't for everyone but has been proven to work

on the block
PCV > to a baffled/filtering media OCC > to an addtl. OEM PCV > to the IM
the valve cover - remove baffle from under side / enlarge hole in back of valve cover / 3/8"NPT tap / 3/8" NPT to -10am 90 degree fitting to 5/8" hose > vented OCC

I added an additional -10 on the valve cover for addtl breathing under high boost but isn't mandatory
if you are overly concerned with the open valve cover, you could follow the same as stated above but add another baffled/filtering media OCC between the enlarged valve cover port to the turbo inlet.

I think one MS3 owner on this site did just that but didn't open up the pin hole vents on the underside of the valve cover which is the key to improved venting
I've done this valve cover mod for a few members and am currently doing it for an MS6 owner in the shop

[phantom3]

I don't get it... what's the problem with plugging the IM and running a OCC VTA from the block. I'm not educated on this, but i don't see how that could cause a problem...

[Deadman]

my setup is exactly as ron stated. Works great.

[bova]

Originally Posted by phantom3 I don't get it... what's the problem with plugging the IM and running a OCC VTA from the block. I'm not educated on this, but i don't see how that could cause a problem...

the problem is the vacuum is needed to pull the gunk of the crankcase. if you plug the manifold you won't have the vacuum on the crankcase and all that gunk just sits in there and will begin to cause some major prolems for you.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by bova80 the problem is the vacuum is needed to pull the gunk of the crankcase. if you plug the manifold you won't have the vacuum on the crankcase and all that gunk just sits in there and will begin to cause some major prolems for you.

by gunk you mean sludge from oil and other debris? If this is the case then why are VTA OCC's run on other cars with out problems? I ran one on my 300zxTT for 3 yrs with no issues? What is it about the MZR DISI that causes problems with this setup?

[bova]

i dont have an exact answer i'm just telling you what i know and that if you plan on doing it that way be prepared for hte consequences. maybe whoosh or someone else can chime in.

[MTuning]

peace out

[bova]

because the valve cover does not require that vacuum to evacuate the crankcase. i dont' know if mazda new about all the crap that gets sucked through there, but what you should know is their pcv system sucks and is lousy, you need the vacuum to open the pcv valve they have in place i think. either way there was a guy who plugged the intake manifold and ran a vented occ off the block and he said it started running badly and then he blew his motor there shortly after.

[phantom3]

I think that there may have been more to his motor poping than just an OCC. DISI aside, everything from the top of the pistons down is essentially the same as every other combustion engine.
The reason for the PCV is to vent blow by gasses that get by the ring and into the crank case.
Emission standards state that the gasses must be re-burned (sent through the IM), hence the PCV system. Now the gasses that leak down are only a small percent of what is being produced in the combustion chamber. I can't see that small percent of combustion gas being VTA effecting the over all AFR of the car.
In reality by eliminating the gasses and oil (Which is the real reason for a OCC) from re-entering the IM we are providing a more stable combustion mixture with a stable octane. You don't even need the OCC when VTA except for catching the oil. the gasses are still being VTA which is the same as the breather filter.
The only VTA system that i could see affecting the AFR of the car would be it the valve cover was VTA. due to the fact that under either boost or vacuum condition metered air is going to be released or introduced through the breather filter/OCC. I don't think the real problem here is the crank case.... I believe it to be the VC.
I believe the Crank case should be VTA with an OCC (just so the oil is contained and not leaking everywhere). and the valve cover should connected to the IM with some sort of OCC in between. This would create a dual OCC system which i imagine, most people don't want. That may be why people use 1 OCC for both systems. Less plumbing and only 1 OCC.
Now I have not looked at the PCV system on the MS3 yet, (due to the fact that its currently -24*C outside) so i may have the plumbing for the stock system mixed up in my head. But hey... It makes sense in my head.

[bova]

ok well go ahead do it then

if you connect the valve cover to the intake manifold you are asking for more trouble and should just stop now.

[Deadman]

just run it how whoosh and bova explained... exactly how i have it.

end of story.

[phantom3]

I'm just trying to understand "why". That`s all.

[bova]

because it wasn't designed to hook the valve cover up to the intake manifold. you do that then you'll end up pressurizing the valve cover when you are in boost unless you run another pcv and thats just dumb. the valve cover draws in air for the crankcase as well as vents.

[bombdotcom]

hey whoosh any chance u can compile a how to with pics for the valve cover mods and what not. i kno how to do the occ but not what youre talking about.

[builthatch]

guys/girls, i have some threads up discussing this pretty in-depth. i will find them later, but they are on this forum if you want to l00k.

the long and the short of it is....

the valve cover to intake tube connection can only use a sealed can because of the MAF. wh00sh evidently has a vented setup, but this is a quote of mine from another forum thread about that exact subject-

Originally Posted by builthatch hose from valve cover to intake manifold? there is no such thing. boost won't "pressurize the valvecover" (your phrase) if the valve cover is connected to the pre-turbo intake tube. that is impossible. i guess i should have explained i know 100% how PCV systems work. i think that you might have assumed some things from my last post without completely understanding what i wrote.... i appreciate the help though. so, assuming i know 100% how a PCV system works, which i do. take what i asked specifically and see if you or anyone can explain what is happening. under boost, the PCV closes...the PCV runs from the intake manifold to the block, lol. ok, so the PCV is closed. that means that there is no place for the crankcase pressure to go EXCEPT through the top of the engine now, the valve cover-to-intake tube hose. this spot on the intake tube is after the MAF, but before the turbo. we know that when the engine is under vacuum, the PCV is opened in various degrees and crankcase vapors are going from the block, through the PCV, into the intake manifold. when this is occuring, the valve cover-to-intake tube is pulling fresh air from the intake tube. it's a cycle. ok. that SAME spot that was previously supplying the crankcase with fresh air. when the engine is under boost, that line is now the only exit for crankcase pressure because remember the PCV to IM connection is now a no-go, as the PCV is seeing boost and sealing off the block. so now the former air supply line at the valve cover from the intake tube becomes an exit line for crankcase stuff. the valve cover is baffled for a few reasons, and one of them is to prevent actual oil from going into the intake tube during this condition, but of course that doesn't work well. that is why these setups typically end up with oil in the intake tract BEFORE the turbo. so, the solution for the valve cover issue is... to run a line from the valve cover to a vented can. this way, under boost, the sole exit available ends up putting junk into the vented can and not the intake tube. also, when the engine is under vacuum and the lower PCV to IM system is working, the vent on the can allows the valve cover to have an air supply like it formerly did, albeit not from the intake tube any longer. now HERE is my problem, lol..... the line that you connected to the vented can.... that line WAS going to a spot on the intake tube after the MAF. like, right after it. if i leave that spot open, obviously metered air that passed the MAF will be going out of that hole to the underhood area. ok, so i cap it. well, capping it causes the ECU to wonder why the bit of metered air that was supplying the valve cover with fresh METERED air under vacuum as described above is now not supplying the valve cover with air but in fact going into the turbo now, to be compressed enroute to the combustion process. i know this because the fuel trims change automatically when this area is capped. that is because the ECU is seeing more air enter the turbo system now, esp under vacuum conditions when it previously was supplying the crankcase. what is going on there? i think this might be over the heads of alot of people. i'm going to consult some of the more respected technical people out there like Jeff Evans and Mase, but i'd like to know exactly how this could be accomplished on modern MAF cars without issues because i know the change is showing issues on what i'm working with.

ok, so re: the bottom portion-

the bottom connection (crankcase/PCV connection) IMO can use a vented can. i don't believe that the IM needs to pull anything. crankcase pressures will evacuate themselves pretty effectively. the only reason PCV systems are routed to the IM in the first place is because we can't do what they used to do and dump it onto the road while driving. the crank case vapors, etc are pulled into the IM, burned up, and the cat handles it at the end.

dadasracecar or something had this vented type setup and claimed nothing ever showed up in the can, and then grenaded his engine, but i think the two are not related.

if worse comes to worse, just run the common sealed can setup that cobb details in their accessport PDF. you'll be environmentally friendly, and if you have media in the can, you'll do a decent job of preventing alot of the junk from going into the IM.

[mdogg]

what do you think you will gain from venting the PCV rather than using a closed CC? I sure wouldn't want to be the 2nd person to try (given what happened the first time).

[builthatch]

Originally Posted by mdogg what do you think you will gain from venting the PCV rather than using a closed CC? I sure wouldn't want to be the 2nd person to try (given what happened the first time).

the perf advantage is that the vapors from the crankcase will not get into the intake manifold what so ever, so they won't pollute the intake charge. that shit is nasty- it dilutes the charge with oily garbage and lowers the effective octane rating of the fuel. however, not to make this too complicated, but, i'm curious how detrimential it can be on DI vs. port injected, since the fuel doesn't get that much of a chance to interface with the garbage like it does on a port injected car....anyway, the bottom line is, no matter what, it pollutes the intake charge.

the disadvantage is that is pollutes the environment even more.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by builthatch the perf advantage is that the vapors from the crankcase will not get into the intake manifold what so ever, so they won't pollute the intake charge. that shit is nasty- it dilutes the charge with oily garbage and lowers the effective octane rating of the fuel. however, not to make this too complicated, but, i'm curious how detrimential it can be on DI vs. port injected, since the fuel doesn't get that much of a chance to interface with the garbage like it does on a port injected car....anyway, the bottom line is, no matter what, it pollutes the intake charge. the disadvantage is that is pollutes the environment even more.

Thank you. this is exactly what i was trying to say along with you other post, but i guess I'm not that great with words... lol.

[bova]

ok so if dadasracecar ran the vented can and nothing ever collected in it that just goes to show you that all the shit we are getting in our closed catch cans is not being pulled out of the crankcase and just being backed up inside there.

[builthatch]

Originally Posted by bova80 ok so if dadasracecar ran the vented can and nothing ever collected in it that just goes to show you that all the shit we are getting in our closed catch cans is not being pulled out of the crankcase and just being backed up inside there.

3 things come to mind about his case:

how long did he run that setup for, in terms of time for stuff to collect?

and when the can is vented, there is a very easy route for most things to escape the can, especially during temperate changes, etc. on a closed system, only when the car is running, and under vacuum, does anything escape. that leaves alot of opportunity for things to appear in the can due to condensation, etc. most of that crap that people are seeing in the cans is water, water that by default sort of emulsifies with some of the junk in the vapors (fuel, mostly oil) so it won't necessarily evaporate easily or be pulled in to the IM. but, if the can is vented, the liquid will have very little chance to collect and emulsify like that. this is evident by standing near an engine with a vented can and also looking at the filter atop these cans....the filter gets greasy and the car stinks when it's running because the stuff eminating from the filter.

lastly- what else did he have on his car to potentially contribute to it grenading? there were a ton of variables there.

also remember there are a ton of people all over the world run these vented types of cans aspirating the block, on all engines great and small; our engine from that standpoint is no different. it's DI, yes, but that is about it and is a seperate issue from anything else we are discussing here. from a rotating assemby and crankcase perspective, it's the same as any other engine.

if you are uncomfortable with the idea, a sealed can is DEF better than nothing, but i don't think it's as ideal as a vented can, that's all.

[Shottachris]

Originally Posted by builthatch 3 things come to mind about his case: how long did he run that setup for, in terms of time for stuff to collect? and when the can is vented, there is a very easy route for most things to escape the can, especially during temperate changes, etc. on a closed system, only when the car is running, and under vacuum, does anything escape. that leaves alot of opportunity for things to appear in the can due to condensation, etc. most of that crap that people are seeing in the cans is water, water that by default sort of emulsifies with some of the junk in the vapors (fuel, mostly oil) so it won't necessarily evaporate easily or be pulled in to the IM. but, if the can is vented, the liquid will have very little chance to collect and emulsify like that. this is evident by standing near an engine with a vented can and also looking at the filter atop these cans....the filter gets greasy and the car stinks when it's running because the stuff eminating from the filter. lastly- what else did he have on his car to potentially contribute to it grenading? there were a ton of variables there. also remember there are a ton of people all over the world run these vented types of cans aspirating the block, on all engines great and small; our engine from that standpoint is no different. it's DI, yes, but that is about it and is a seperate issue from anything else we are discussing here. from a rotating assemby and crankcase perspective, it's the same as any other engine. if you are uncomfortable with the idea, a sealed can is DEF better than nothing, but i don't think it's as ideal as a vented can, that's all.

Great knowledge

[Djohns]

Jesus fucking Christ. 8 year thread bump?? The person you quoted hasn’t even logged on since 2013.

[Code Monkey]

[monkey.bones.007]

@shadowms3; this shotta fagot keeps shit posting.

crapatalk it sucks for free

[Djohns]

Originally Posted by monkey.bones.007 @shadowms3; this shotta fagot keeps shit posting. crapatalk it sucks for free

I vote for a ban since he’s a douche!!

[Jonb82]

Yo cuz don’t come at me wit dat nagative shit. I got enuf goin on in my lif. My mans told me I’m not man enuf ands I got to be tha botum now. Don’t even talk shit cuz I’m not goin to respond


Sent while probably pooping

[Fstrnyou]

Vote to at least temporarily ban

[Djohns]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Vote to at least temporarily ban

Read his other post and you’ll want him perma banned.

[Fstrnyou]

Originally Posted by Djohns Read his other post and you’ll want him perma banned.

I've seen his other useless posts...