GI: 75mm PnP Throttle Body Upgrade!!!

[ozzzzz]

Im in please add me to the list.

[Don06speed6]

I'm very in!

[BobtailedSnail]

You can put me down as very interested. When I'm gonna buy depends on when JM fab releases the PI mani with its discount. If that's close then I'ma grab that while the deal is there. But I'm eventually getting this because I believe the two go hand in hand. I'm def buying, the order just depends on the mani at this point.

[06Speed6]

Oh I so need this with my setup. Put me down

[qtrmile beast]

Waiting until this terribly expensive XMAS is over and the dust settles before i can buy but i plan on the intake and TB at the same time!!!!

[Voltwings]

@superskaterxes; I would like to be added to the list as well. Thanks.

[Alpha]

Sign me up playa!

[superskaterxes]

we are only going to do a small batch at first (5-10 kits) to make sure that everything is smooth and that people are showing interest when it comes to actually ordering them. We have gotten a few units in so far and we will update you on the progress as we get the ball rolling.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by chimmike but we've got to think, is the TB more of a restriction than the stock head? The stock IM outflows the head. The head (especially the exhaust ports) are the big restriction, not the IM really or TB even. What I'm getting at is, for stock turbo guys, or even guys with ported IM's but stock head (not even mild porting), there are better places to spend the money......yank the head, have a shop hog out both sides.....gains will be had!

Just a little FYI , I made 600+ on a stock throttle body

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by dturboman Just a little FYI , I made 600+ on a stock throttle body

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this mod's aimed more toward improving a setup's efficiency rather than just increasing power capacity.

Kind of like headwork. More HP per PSI

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by dturboman Just a little FYI , I made 600+ on a stock throttle body

That's great and if you had a bigger TB you could of made 20-50whp more at the same boost level by alleviating another restriction in the system.

Sent from my XT894 using Tapatalk 2

[6oost3d]

Definitely interested! Add me to the list please

[Erich]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 That's great and if you had a bigger TB you could of made 20-50whp more at the same boost level by alleviating another restriction in the system. Sent from my XT894 using Tapatalk 2

Quoted for truth... and actually 50+.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 That's great and if you had a bigger TB you could of made 20-50whp more at the same boost level by alleviating another restriction in the system. Sent from my XT894 using Tapatalk 2

I wouldn't doubt it.

I'm sure with real cams and the bigger TB I could have picked up closer to 60-70whp

Originally Posted by Alpha Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this mod's aimed more toward improving a setup's efficiency rather than just increasing power capability. Kind of like headwork. More HP per PSI

I dont disagree, i was just commenting that it the OEM TB can produce numbers.

When I swapped to the 4" MAF too I gained unofficially 20ish whp - I never got to dyno it after the changes.

and I'm sure with the 4"MAF, a bigger TB and Cams I would have been knocking on the door of 700.

But at the time I finding a PNP TB was not happening.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by dturboman I wouldn't doubt it, but its not a hard restriction till the the high flow numbers, I'm sure with real cams and the bigger TB I could have picked up closer to 60-70whp I dont disagree, i was just commenting that it the OEM TB can produce numbers. When I swapped to the 4" MAF too I gained unofficially 20ish whp - I never got to dyno it after the changes. and I'm sure with the 4"MAF, a bigger TB and Cams I would have been knocking on the door of 700. at the time I finding a PNP TB was not happening.

it was a restriction at ~430whp worth of air when i tested it.

[BigRedSpecial]

Here is what I'm wondering... I'm assuming the gains wouldn't be huge on my set up (3071/ATP hotside), but could the reduced restriction help breathing up top? I'll be content for torque but would love some more horsepower.

That's my amateur question for the day.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes it was a restriction at ~430whp worth of air when i tested it.

430whp worth of air has a lot of variables too.

Maybe it was posted in here maybe not... what CFM was it flowing?

NVM I see 525

and whats the true flow area of the OEM TB

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by dturboman ' Maybe it was posted in here maybe not... what CFM was it flowing? and whats the true flow area of the OEM TB

my results were dyno proven not just some flow bench. I did it while scientifically testing the JMF mani like jim asked for. Check out the thread for the results.

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes my results were dyno proven not just some flow bench. I did it while scientifically testing the JMF mani like jim asked for. Check out the thread for the results.

yeah we tried 2x to do the testing and first time we could get spark... the last time with Jim there the crank let go.

so that was as far as it got.

what size is your Cold pipe?

430 on your car could be 500+ on another,

[dturboman]

if were going for all out efficiency there is much to take into account.

I would like to see the flow velocity of the Stock TB north of 500CFM

A stock head is pretty much choked out @700-800 on stock cam profile, a Stock TB with a flow area of sub sub 60mm should Choke @600ish CFM, and a Ported 650ish+

I"ve seen 700+whp from 62.5 of flow area and a gain of under 10whp when moving up 75+mm, some people have lost power thinking they need bigger and they end up losing too much air velocity.

A bigger TB may help the first layer of restriction, but for it to truly shine everything else needs to be as efficient, running a Stock IM your feeding a bigger problem (unbalanced air distribution)

anyway these are just my thoughts.. I like the big TB option

Pulled this from the web.



The formula: Velocity = (CFM/Area of piping)
Where X= CFM , V=Velocity , Y=Pipe Diameter

V= (X / 60)/ Pi (((Y/12) /2) ^2)

Just to explain... I changed some values for simplicity in the formula. 60 is time. Before he had it V= (X^3/min x 1 min/60s) .

I set a constant on both sides of his formula; such as intercooler pipe diameter is represented as one constant value... Ex. 2.5" pipe ID will be the divider of the CFM. 2.5" ID is represented as .03406. It's just how the formula works out so it's now easier to understand. The same with CFM values. 450 CFM = 7.5 .

Before I go any further, these are all estimated numbers based on a conservative value of 1.5 to go from BHP to CFM. Some use 1.2 others 1.7 depending on engine type. Not sure what ours would be.

I've found that I've been between 1.125 to 1.25WHP per CFM on the MZR

ideal air flow speed without encountering too much restriction, friction, heat, and such and providing the quickest speed is Mach .4 (1128 ft/s) or otherwise 451.2 ft/s.

Here's the chart.

2” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...344.04 FT/S
750 CFM ...573.39 FT/S
1200 CFM...917.43 FT/S
1800 CFM...1376.15 FT/S
590.17 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

2.25” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...260.96 FT/S
750 CFM ...453.06 FT/S
1200 CFM...724.9 FT/S
1800 CFM...1087.35 FT/S
746.92 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

2.5” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...220.19 FT/S
750 CFM ...366.99 FT/S
1200 CFM...586.7 FT/S
1800 CFM...880.79 FT/S
922.07 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

2.75” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...181.95 FT/S
750 CFM ...303.25 FT/S
1200 CFM...484.8 FT/S
1800 CFM...727.8 FT/S
1115.91 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

3” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...152.87 FT/S
750 CFM ...254.79 FT/S
1200 CFM...407.4 FT/S
1800 CFM...611.5 FT/S
1328.15 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

4” I.D. PIPE

450 CFM ...85.99 FT/S
750 CFM ...143.32 FT/S
1200 CFM...229.31 FT/S
1800 CFM...343.96 FT/S
1574.15 CFM = 451.2 FT/S

In blue are the idealistic CFM flow rates per pipe diameter. Remember, we want the speed at 451.2 Ft per Second.

Here are some quick values for those who are lazy.

450 CFM=7.5
750 CFM=12.5
1200 CFM=20
1800 CFM=30

2.0” ID PIPE=.0218
2.25” ID PIPE=.02759
2.50” ID PIPE=.03406
2.75” ID PIPE=.04122
3.0” ID PIPE=.04906
4.0” ID PIPE=.08722

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE wtf does that mean crank slipped. where could it go. only thing i can think of is crank pulley or cam gears

crank slipped = crank pulley slipped.... thats the only part on the crank that would be able to slip.

we dont have a keyed crank, only a thrust washer setup... so under stress and violent acceleration it can slip

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by dturboman yeah we tried 2x to do the testing and first time we could get spark... the last time with Jim there the crank let go. so that was as far as it got. what size is your Cold pipe? 430 on your car could be 500+ on another,

cold side is 3" hot is 2.5

[Nitr0EngiE]

my intercooler piping is only 2.25 with stock IM with minor porting and stock TB

Am I think im already suffering from restriction =/ i need 3" piping and bigger tb

[dturboman]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE my intercooler piping is only 2.25 with stock IM with minor porting and stock TB Am I think im already suffering from restriction =/ i need 3" piping and bigger tb

3" cold pipe is a big jump, honestly 2.5" ID would be a nice compromise.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes cold side is 3" hot is 2.5

Same here, for most everyone 2.5" cold will do the job with no problem.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes we are only going to do a small batch at first (5-10 kits) to make sure that everything is smooth and that people are showing interest when it comes to actually ordering them.

You could ask for like $50 down to help gauge how many people are going to actually buy.

[NJSPEED3]

I got my 3" cold pipe all mocked up with 6th port today, actually. It's getting welded tomorrow. Just waiting on that TB now.

[bcmurphy87]

Where are these at?

[TWOptSL0W]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 I got my 3" cold pipe all mocked up with 6th port today, actually. It's getting welded tomorrow. Just waiting on that TB now.

Pics/details of what you did?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 You could ask for like $50 down to help gauge how many people are going to actually buy.

clearly there is tons of interest so we're not worried about that. We want to get a few more of these out to make sure there are no problems (because really its only been tested on my car). Once we get some positive reviews we will go ahead and get things running full bore.

[NJSPEED3]

Im ready to get scientifical up in this piece.

[alfre127]

Add me to the list plz

[Speedie6]

I believe that this was supposed to work with the stock flange, albeit with a thick Teflon spacer. Did I understand correctly? Would it be better for the flange to be designed for it? The reason I ask is, for Silver's manifold, the manufacturer said they were going to offer different TB flanges. So, I'm trying to figure out how I want to go on that.

[SilverDemon]

I thought there was some differences in the flange as well. I am not sure if they are going to modify the new TB to mate to the original flange or the insulator gasket will adapt the new TB to the original bolt pattern.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 I believe that this was supposed to work with the stock flange, albeit with a thick Teflon spacer. Did I understand correctly? Would it be better for the flange to be designed for it? The reason I ask is, for Silver's manifold, the manufacturer said they were going to offer different TB flanges. So, I'm trying to figure out how I want to go on that.

this TB fits the stock bolt pattern.

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I thought there was some differences in the flange as well. I am not sure if they are going to modify the new TB to mate to the original flange or the insulator gasket will adapt the new TB to the original bolt pattern.

the spacer that comes in the kit will be made to the stock bolt pattern and the new TB will be machined slightly to match the stock bolt pattern. this will make it 100% PnP to the stock manifold/bolt pattern/connector.


jim can make custom flanges for any TB but its much easier to him to just make one single flange to help keep costs down. No one in the right mind would try and find a different TB then the one we are offering because the amount of R&D needed to figure out which electronics work with our stock ECU is insane and no one will ever need a larger one then this.

[SilverDemon]

Good deal! That was what I was hoping for.

[jmhinkle]

While the larger TB can be machined fit the stock pattern, is the new manifold larger at the opening to accomodate the TB size increase? Or is that why there are different flanges?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle While the larger TB can be machined fit the stock pattern, is the new manifold larger at the opening to accomodate the TB size increase? Or is that why there are different flanges?

the JMF TB flange is 75mm. the absolute smallest ID of the TB where the blade makes a seal is 74mm but the ID closest to the outlet is technically 80mm. after applying my spacer the transition was pretty smooth between the TB/spacer/IM flange.


but if your asking if the TB flange/elbow is the smallest part it is technically not.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes jim can make custom flanges for any TB but its much easier to him to just make one single flange to help keep costs down. No one in the right mind would try and find a different TB then the one we are offering because the amount of R&D needed to figure out which electronics work with our stock ECU is insane and no one will ever need a larger one then this.

Cool! Thanks for the info. Its just that since he said that other TB flanges were going to be offered, I figured that either I was mistaken and that yours needed a different flange. Or perhaps he already had other TBs in mind as alternatives to yours. But, perhaps his saying that other TB flanges would be available was just a preliminary idea. I for one certainly would prefer one flange for all, all flanges for one, or something like that.

Thanks!

[superskaterxes]

like i said before, jim can CNC a giant penis and weld it to your mani if your want, the sky is the limit!

[TWOptSL0W]

I want one of those

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes like i said before, jim can CNC a giant penis and weld it to your mani if your want, the sky is the limit!

I understand. Its just that since he brought it up, I thought there might be something up as to why he brought it up.