GTX3071 - Boost Creep

[soul.survivor]

So I installed my 3071 last weekend. Everything is connected, no leaks, looks nice, sounds great, etc. I ported the IWG a little, smoothing out the inside of the housing mostly but didn't go too extreme since I'm not running a huge MAF and have a catted DP. I could probably take another 1mm out all around the port if I wanted to.

When I put the turbo back together I clocked it so that the actuator rod was very close to centered in the hole. It was almost touching one side before disassembly and I didn't like that because I thought it might bind up. It's only a little off of where it was originally and fits pretty well overall. That reduced preload so I tightened the rod all the way minus removing the nut. It seemed like it gave me about the same amount of preload as before I took it apart. It wasn't all that hard to reconnect the rod. There was only about 3/8-1/2" of threads on the rod to work with. I did not connect air to it to check when it released, which was dumb looking back. I'm still a relative noob when it comes to working on turbos.

I just went out and did some testing and I crept up to 18.8psi before I let off around 6k on a 14psi spring. I'm trying to formulate a plan to get this under control. The first thing I'll try is to reduce preload on the WG by a turn or two of the rod and if that doesn't help or hurts spool then I'll have to take the turbo off and port the shit out of it, which I really don't want to do.

So I realize that too little preload may cause lag but on these GTX turbos is it possible that a little too much preload will cause that much creep? Is there anything I might be missing?

Thanks.

[Voltwings]

is your wastegate in your map set to 0 and you are creeping, or are you running no EBC / MBC and creeping? Does it slowly climb to 18, or is it 18 pretty much the whole time?

There is an 18 psi spring option and as much as i love the guys at edge, when i ordered a 14 psi spring, i ended up with an 8 -_- ( i just chose to blame ATP instead haha)

[soul.survivor]

I zeroed out my wgdc and made all the other changes in atvfreek's thread Big Turbo Boost Tuning 101. I'm running the Cobb ECBS in 3 port mode but it shouldn't come into play with the changes done to my map. It creeps, doesn't hit 18 and stay. I googled the part number on the IWG and it said it was 1bar.

I noticed the silicone coupler from turbo to tmic is crimped quite a bit below the quick tap nipple so I need to cut another 1/2in or so off the bottom of that but I don't see how that would cause creep.

[Lex]

18psi of creep with an open intake and exhaust is not bad by 6k RPM. Are you planning on staying below this value?

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by Lex 18psi of creep with an open intake and exhaust is not bad by 6k RPM. Are you planning on staying below this value?

That's good to hear. I plan to stay around 20-22psi. Is it possible to control creep using wgdc in the upper rpm range and still get a relatively flat boost curve? I'd love to hit 18-20 by 3400 and maybe 22 at redline.

[silvapain]

God, I wish I could complain about creeping to only 18-19 psi on spring pressure. I creep close to 30 psi on 15 psi crack pressure.

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by silvapain God, I wish I could complain about creeping to only 18-19 psi on spring pressure. I creep close to 30 psi on 15 psi crack pressure.

Yea that's pretty bad. You've got quite a bit more flow than me on the intake and exhaust sides. But you've got EWG....wow.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by soul.survivor Yea that's pretty bad. You've got quite a bit more flow than me on the intake and exhaust sides. But you've got EWG....wow.

No, I'm IWG. I wish now I had gone external...

[BigRedSpecial]

Jesus this has me worried now. @soul.survivor; how fast does it creep up? As in, what does it creep to by X rpm? I want to run a heavily tapered curve and I'm wondering how hard it'll be. Can you post a plot and/or log?
@silvapain; is it the high CR causing you to creep so much? I know your exhaust isn't helping but that seems excessive

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Jesus this has me worried now. @soul.survivor; how fast does it creep up? As in, what does it creep to by X rpm? I want to run a heavily tapered curve and I'm wondering how hard it'll be. Can you post a plot and/or log? @silvapain; is it the high CR causing you to creep so much? I know your exhaust isn't helping but that seems excessive

It creeps extremely steadily as RPMs increase. I'll do a couple logs tonight. Last night I just watched my dashdaq because I can see 8 PIDs at once and it has a nice little graph with red spikes for KR. Much better than the AP for real time monitoring.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by soul.survivor It creeps extremely steadily as RPMs increase. I'll do a couple logs tonight. Last night I just watched my dashdaq because I can see 8 PIDs at once and it has a nice little graph with red spikes for KR. Much better than the AP for real time monitoring.

Appreciate it. I have a Dashdaq as well; I thought I was the only one lol

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Appreciate it. I have a Dashdaq as well; I thought I was the only one lol

Yea it's pretty badass except for the GPS add-on, which is a POS. SD card reader on my PC is toast or I'd log with it.

[silvapain]

Can't say for sure, but I suspect it's a combination of the full 3" catless turbo-back exhaust and higher compression. @Dano; is supposed to be sending me his ported ATP turbine housing, and I'm going to swap it in and see how well it helps.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by silvapain Can't say for sure, but I suspect it's a combination of the full 3" catless turbo-back exhaust and higher compression. @Dano; is supposed to be sending me his ported ATP turbine housing, and I'm going to swap it in and see how well it helps.

Dano is a loser and totally forgot....I'll package it up and send it out tomorrow.

[kritz]

Originally Posted by Dano Dano is a loser and totally a faggot....I'll package it up and send it out tomorrow.

fixed

[8.5MS3]

i just said fuck it and closed the IWG and ran external

i creep to 15-15.5psi with a 1 bar spring

especially after hearing and seeing what happens if you port the housings too much

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 i just said fuck it and closed the IWG and ran external i creep to 15-15.5psi with a 1 bar spring especially after hearing and seeing what happens if you port the housings too much

I wouldn't be opposed to getting a CP-E EWG setup if this becomes a big issue but I've spent about as much as I can until I pay the credit card back down. What happens if you port the housing too much?

[rfinkle2]

There is no need for an ewg if you are creeping below boost targets, imo. There are other options besides porting the IWG as well.

[BigRedSpecial]

I haven't tried the GPS. Only issue I've had with mine is BATs read some retarded number... usually 20-40 degrees below ambient. If I monitor with the AP it's fine; what's really weird is after monitoring with the AP the dashdaq will read fine the first time it's turned on; once it's turned off it's back to full retard.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled thread...

[soul.survivor]

Well, according to rfinkle and Lex as long as I'm not creeping past my desired target I should be fine. So...thanks for the help. I learned something. I'll try to get up to redline tonight and post a log.

[Lex]

Also remember that creep gets worse in cold weather and with high flowing intake and exhaust.

However it sounds like you are staying below targets so you will be able to control the boost with a good tune. I wouldn't port the wg at this point.

[802MS3]

ported standard gt3071 with zero creep. My boost curve starts at 14psi around 3k and runs out to 21 by redline, 3.5" JBR WP, catless exhaust :

Pics here: 3071r build

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 ported standard gt3071 with zero creep. My boost curve starts at 14psi around 3k and runs out to 21 by redline, 3.5" JBR WP, catless exhaust : Pics here: 3071r build

Nice porting. After seeing that I feel that my porting is wholly inadequate, half-assed, and amateurish.

[802MS3]

I can't take credit for it, I had a guy with mad fab skills take care of it for me. I think he charged me 1.5hrs of labor.

[Dano]

whatever you do...don't over port the hotside...if you do...well you're fucked cuz ATP will not sell you one and you are left searching the forum for a virgin that was cast aside to make way for an EWG setup.

[cld12pk2go]

My porting is here:

Cld12pk2go's ATP GTX3071 Build

No creep.

[sassyspeed3]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go My porting is here: Cld12pk2go's ATP GTX3071 Build No creep.

There is plenty of port examples on this forum...I used @cld12pk2go; to do mine before I went ewg.

sent from my cleavage via tapatalk

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by sassyspeed3 There is plenty of port examples on this forum...I used @cld12pk2go; to do mine before I went ewg. sent from my cleavage via tapatalk

The stock porting on mine vs cld12pk2go's was a lot different. My WG arm is also straight once it gets past that first S bend out of the IWG. My marker circle was almost even all the way around with only about 2-3mm of material that could be removed before I'd possibly fuck it up so I was conservative and concentrated more on the sharp ramp the drill or whatever ATP used left behind inside the port. I could do a bit more if needed. Wish I had taken pics and measurements. I kept reading that catless and big MAF were major contributors so I was cautious with the porting.

Originally Posted by atvfreek Creeping to 18 is no problem IMO. You will want to run 22ish at minimum at redline to let that turbo shine.

Was going to take logs tonight but it's been storming pretty hard, maybe another day this week. I figure I'll hit 21-22 at redline, maybe more the way it was creeping last night. I let off when I saw 18.8 around 6k. I'll post logs when I can.

[atvfreek]

Creeping to 18 is no problem IMO. You will want to run 22ish at minimum at redline to let that turbo shine.

[soul.survivor]

WOT from 2600 to 6700 on spring pressure.

Almost hit 21psi. Targeting 11.6 AFR...check. BATs rising...that's new. Everything else looks pretty good, pre-BT open loop MAF cal is pretty much spot on. Touch of KR in the beginning, not sure why.
@BigRedSpecial; @atvfreek;

[BigRedSpecial]

21 psi on spring pressure...


It eases my worries though; you don't really creep at all until after 5000

[rfinkle2]

Soul survivor, you are still creeping below targets. If you are self tuning, and want to run < 21 psi, use the throttle plate to control load.

If you want to run 21-22 psi, taper the wgdc down to 0 @ high rpm.

Enjoy the BT and try not to worry so much.

Guys run 21-22 psi early in the rev band all day every day ... doing so @ high revs is considered to be less stressful on the engine so enjoy the ability to do so.

[soul.survivor]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Soul survivor, you are still creeping below targets. If you are self tuning, and want to run < 21 psi, use the throttle plate to control load. If you want to run 21-22 psi, taper the wgdc down to 0 @ high rpm. Enjoy the BT and try not to worry so much. Guys run 21-22 psi early in the rev band all day every day ... doing so @ high revs is considered to be less stressful on the engine so enjoy the ability to do so.

I'm not worried anymore, still new to a lot of this. I'm getting a freektune once I get a couple things taken care of. I think it's going to work out pretty good but I would've liked to have had full boost control above 1 bar, just an OCD kind of thing. And I am enjoying it even without a tune although I can't wait to get it spooling up faster.

[Outlaw4shrt]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If you are self tuning, and want to run < 21 psi, use the throttle plate to control load.

@rfinkle2; how do you do this? can you tell the ECU to close the throttle if load targets are exceeded? which tables do you adjust and do you have any recommended settings?

I have a gtx3071 IWG and I'm creeping to 26 psi (boost target is 20 psi) at redline in 4th gear with WGDC set to 0 above 6000 rpm. I have a catted downpipe and a well ported IWG port and it still creeps badly.

[Vader]

What is happening, sounds like what happened to me.

And was normal, as far as i could tell.

Here - http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ml#post1216204

is a plot of my boost curve @ spring pressure --> Adjusted.

and here - http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ml#post1307829

is what it was like when dialed in. FYI, I've changed a few things since then, and bumped up boost a little.


As @atvfreek; alluded to, This turbo doesn't get it's legs until ~ 22-23psi, and above.


Take it one step at a time, and when it's dialed in right, you'll be very happy

Good luck.

[rfinkle2]

Before anything, the DBW tables need to be around 76-77% @ max throttle. (vs. setting the table up with 90 values to pin the throttle plate open)

Some cars will need you to populate the load dynamics tables as well.

Set your throttle close table to about .1 above your boost target.

[Outlaw4shrt]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Before anything, the DBW tables need to be around 76-77% @ max throttle. (vs. setting the table up with 90 values to pin the throttle plate open) Some cars will need you to populate the load dynamics tables as well. Set your throttle close table to about .1 above your boost target.

thanks for getting back to me.

I adjusted my throttle cut to 20.9 psi (I had it set at 26), saved the map and ran a 4th gear log. Even with the throttle cut set at 20.9 it still crept to 24 psi and it appears that the ECU made no adjustments to my throttle opening even though I was over boosting. Is there something I am missing?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Before anything, the DBW tables need to be around 76-77% @ max throttle. (vs. setting the table up with 90 values to pin the throttle plate open) Some cars will need you to populate the load dynamics tables as well. Set your throttle close table to about .1 above your boost target.

You can't really say that you are creeping 4 psi if you have your wgdc table populated in an area where you are overboosting.

Also, you have your load comp table populated so your load tables are going to be targeted. There are a few things that don't quite jive in your map.

Here are a few things that are in need of adjustment and suggestions for the load dynamics and boost comp table.

[Outlaw4shrt]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You can't really say that you are creeping 4 psi if you have your wgdc table populated in an area where you are overboosting. Also, you have your load comp table populated so your load tables are going to be targeted. There are a few things that don't quite jive in your map. Here are a few things that are in need of adjustment and suggestions for the load dynamics and boost comp table.

I really appreciate you taking the time to get back to me. I definitely need to go back and do some more studying but I don't feel like I've ever seen those tables populated before. Thank you for sharing that with me.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Outlaw4shrt I really appreciate you taking the time to get back to me. I definitely need to go back and do some more studying but I don't feel like I've ever seen those tables populated before. Thank you for sharing that with me.

No problem, you are welcome.

One way to get a feel for the type of values used in the different tables is to DL a stage 0 map.

That way you can compare your map, a Mazda factory map and a ots map.

Seeing how Mazda used the tables available is very helpful, imo.