hypothetical question

[phailerider]

So lets just say I know a guy with a new gt30 turbo on his speed3. This guy had problems with controling boost on his turbo because he forgot to hook up the vacuum restrictor line on the new turbo.

Well then when he did hook it up he t'ed the wastegate-solenoid hose to the bpv-manifold hose with a vacuum restrictor line.

The result was a very oscillating boost gauge with a very humpy power curve. After fooling with the pid loop control on his new v2 standback it improved quite a bit but hes still getting plenty of spike and more oscillation than hed like.

Is there a problem with this?

Could there be other hoses that are loose that would be causing this?

Sorry for the way i posed this question...lol

[occschemguy]

prob has a leak when i first put the boost guage in i taped the bov hose with a plstic t and starteed getting jumpy boost and couldnt find the reasn then i finally lost all boost and then i looked and the plastic t had completly busted in half, so i replaced it with a brass one and its been fine seanse.

[phailerider]

Thanks Os. I know that may be a prob with leaky hoses but I want more corraboration from the gurus on this vacuum restritor hose.

On our stock turbos there is two hoses from the wastegate. One to the solenoid and then another with the restrictor.... I dont even recall where the restritor line went to.

when we got the new turbo in.... it only had one nipple on the wastegate. We hooked that up directly to the solenoid and Mark just eliminated the restrictor line.... this is why we were unable to control boost.

After talking to the cpe guys we figured out that this was the problem. Well anyway... we made a line t'ed into the wastegate to solenoid line..... with this line we took it out to the line between the bpv and the intake mani. It sits 1 inch next to my boost gauge tee on that hose.

Now my concern is that this restrictor hose is giving a "different" reading or a "competing" reading to the wastegate.

Is this fear unfounded?

Where would you boys put the restrictor on the new setup?.... and telling me to use a mbc aint an option at this point. I want to use the solenoid unless it becomes obvious I have to go that route. Others with this setup on the 6's are using it and I want to hear how it was done.

Im gonna bump this son of a bitch till I get an answer from you fuckers cause I dont know what Im doing half the time. Be prepared.... Im stressing over this.

[Haltech]

Well why dont you try t-ing off the vac line that its on the BPV for your boost gauge and see what the gauge does before screwing around with the restricter line.

[phailerider]

Im not quite following, Kevin. The restrictor line IS the new line. Im forced to screw around with it because there was no place for it on the new turbo. My question is where should it be placed?

Its possible to just use an inline one on the wastegate to solenoid hose, maybe....

I think Im going to post a diagram for everybody to see. hang tight.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by mdogg is this what you are looking for? Aftermarket Turbo Kit tips and tricks - Mazda6 / Atenza

VERY HELPFUL!!!!

Only problem is the restrictor line isnt used with a mbc. The OP mentioned that the restrictor needed to be hooked up to some ATP restrictor included with the turbo into the intercooler pipe.

Mark overlooked the valve that came with the turbo. I think he was just confident after doing so many "other" turbo cars. We went to the line at the mani. I think this may be fucking up my boost control.

Im gonna have to redo this.

My setup right now is dangerous.

[CraigHJr]

Hey the standback pid loop may need a tweek. The standback is designed to work with a mostly stock car. Mine overboosts on a stock turbo. Take a data log in 3rd or 4th from 1500 up to 5000 or so. Send it to CP-E and they can tweek the pid numbers to control your boost better. Jordan offered to show me the calculus to do it on my own, but I didn't think I could handle it.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by CraigHJr Hey the standback pid loop may need a tweek. The standback is designed to work with a mostly stock car. Mine overboosts on a stock turbo. Take a data log in 3rd or 4th from 1500 up to 5000 or so. Send it to CP-E and they can tweek the pid numbers to control your boost better. Jordan offered to show me the calculus to do it on my own, but I didn't think I could handle it.

they were helping us with that and it helped some but i want to make sure were not tuning a gunked setup. It seemed awful bad initially.

Originally Posted by mdogg I don't think the ATP kit comes with the restrictor.... I think he's just saying that for it to work properly with the factory solenoid you would need a factory-sized restrictor inline as well. From my understanding, it was a custom thing that he and his installer had to figure out.

OK.... whats the factory sized restrictor... I sent mine off with my turbo to ptp... thats another problem. Youre saying I could just do an inline one... amybe between the wastegate and solenoid. I dont want to tee that line unless I have to.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by mdogg I'm not sure on this exactly, but it looks like he used the .052 nitrous jet as the restrictor itself since it's about the same size. And yes, you could use this T (from the looks of it) between the wastegate and solenoid and then have the middle connection to your quicktap boost reference.

cool... so it doesnt HAVE to be a perfect fit. Youve been hugely helpful.

Last question is about that quicktap boost reference... right now ive got it at the intake mani.. is this cool to drive like that? Thats further along than recommended but would it still work?

[4DRHTRD]

OK some things you need to know:
1. The wastegate on the GT30's from ATP is 15PSI and is sucks ass to tune, I'd say it's untuneable... Order a custom 7psi one from them and you will have MUCH better luck.
2. The restrictor I used was from the NOS 5176 nitrous kit, basically it's an inline fitting with room for a nitrous jet inside of it. You can get these jets with incredibly small holes but I used a .025 if I remember right.
3. I tapped the turbo to IC hose with the ATP quick tap and it worked great.
I've included the picture of the 5176 kit with a square around the piece I used.

[phailerider]

Heres my current setup. Its got a drilled restrictor thats supposed to be similar to the stock size.

Im going to adjust this and follow your advice, but in the meantime is there something so wrong with this setup that I should consider it dangerous.

[redrocketz]

we just tapped into the hot side of the intercooler piping for our setup and it works great. No problems yet. You seem to be making things more difficult than they need to be.

[phailerider]

Alright. thats what i'll do then. geez im a worrywort.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider VERY HELPFUL!!!! Only problem is the restrictor line isnt used with a mbc. The OP mentioned that the restrictor needed to be hooked up to some ATP restrictor included with the turbo into the intercooler pipe. Why the hell didnt Mark use this shit? wtf? We went to the line at the mani. I think this is fucking up my boost control. Im gonna have to redo this. My setup right now is dangerous.

What??? Why the hell would you use the stock restrictor and any restrictor for boost control? WTF is going on here. Use a good before throttle location for your boost source and if the EBC you are using is screwing up then get rid of it for something better.

Maybe I don't understand what is going on but I would never use a restriced line for a bigger turbo, that just asking for problems and a very dangerous condition to show up.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ptperformance What??? Why the hell would you use the stock restrictor and any restrictor for boost control? WTF is going on here. Use a good before throttle location for your boost source and if the EBC you are using is screwing up then get rid of it for something better. Maybe I don't understand what is going on but I would never use a restriced line for a bigger turbo, that just asking for problems and a very dangerous condition to show up.

your saying I should pull the vacuum restrictor out of the line? your going to have to elaborate on this please. I was lost to begin with... now Im worse.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider your saying I should pull the vacuum restrictor out of the line? your going to have to elaborate on this please. I was lost to begin with... now Im worse.

Is it for vacuum or is it for boost control? Think about it, why would you want to restrict the supply side that feeds your boost controller? Stop and think.... why would anyone do that? Its only going to take longer to fill the control side of your boost control line, its only going to cause delays and if you have a bleed type boost control (like 90% of all MBC and EBC on the market) when it bleeds off you are going to loose all you boost control. Boost control needs to be right "NOW" not "whenever". Loss of boost control and or the lack of will only end up bad. You never ever run a restriced line or even to much line for boost control its just a bad idea.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by mdogg To use the factory wastegate control solenoid valve wouldn't you HAVE to essentially recreate the same conditions that it sees while utilizing the factory K04? The K04 also uses a restrictor pill as well in the compressor housing nipple as you are well aware. Obviously, you would need the proper size restrictor pill to correctly allow the electronics to think everything is stock. 4DRHTRD indicated that the correct restrictor would be a .052" hole (correlates to a #55 drill bit). This seems to be about right since the stock restrictor is just under 1/16"....

The bolded part is correct, but what is factory about his car now? You have changed the operating parameters of the vehicle and its never a good idea to restrict the boost control line, never.

What does a good MBC or a EBC cost? How much does a motor cost? Get my point? Not to be rude but when you start modding a car and you are relying on a factory part to control something important as boost, don't do it. You wouldn't trust the stock DI pump to feed your motor fuel why trust the factory boost solenoid. Or... maybe I am just wierd.

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by mdogg I think ATP's recommendation is to use their quick-tap kit to tap into the silicone hose on the hot-side outlet and use this as the boost reference. This is the closest to factory location that would be possible since the compressor housing itself isn't tapped. I'm not sure why ATP wouldn't have had this tapped into the housing to begin with though.... unless they just wanted to allow flexibility.... who knows.

what they said ^^^^^^^

Tap the silicon boot from the turbo to the intercooler piping.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by mdogg I was under the impression that he wanted to utilize the Standback for his boost control. Doesn't that require the factory wastegate control solenoid valve? It's starting to sound like we are all saying the same thing in different ways....

actually I dont think we are. Unless hes counting the standback as factory, instead of a good ebc.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 what they said ^^^^^^^ Tap the silicon boot from the turbo to the intercooler piping.

this is what I was planning after all is said and done. Tap a hose from the wastegate line to intercooler piping.... and I was gonna leave that restrictor in there. Now im curious about what Johns proposing.

[CraigHJr]

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 Tap the silicon boot from the turbo to the intercooler piping.

How do you do that? I just made a turbo inlet pipe and I was going to tap the hard pipe.

As for the boost solenoid you could probably upgrade to a Perrin electronic boost control solenoid if you really think the stock one is falling short of expectations.

I am basically catching up here but the problem you have is wanting to use the stock solenoid and boost control/standback with a big turbo. You can not set it up right because of the missing nipple on the compressor (or 2 nipple set up on the wastegate). Seems to me the easiest thing is to add the nipple and run the hoses just like stock right?

[enganear]

For the solenoid to control the pressure at the wastegate by opening and closing a connection to atmosphere (pulse width modulation), there must be some restriction in the line to the manifold, otherwise there would be nothing to control.
-enganear

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by CraigHJr How do you do that? I just made a turbo inlet pipe and I was going to tap the hard pipe.

This is for a boost source, after the turbo, not before.

ATP QuickTap

The quick tap is included with the big turbo upgrade.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by mdogg I was under the impression that he wanted to utilize the Standback for his boost control. Doesn't that require the factory wastegate control solenoid valve? It's starting to sound like we are all saying the same thing in different ways....

Yes and no. Does the stand back have the ability to control a bigger turbo? Does the factory control solenoid have enough duty cycle to make that happen? With the flow to boost curve changing will that effect the volume moving through the restrictor? With all that said, the restictor systems are garbage, period. If someone wanted to warranty a turbo and I had found out that they were using the stock restrictor system(s) I would be hard pressed to warranty it. They are a very poor failsafe for the factory to keep cars from over boosting. Don't do it if your going to be using something other then the stock turbo on stock boost control, thats it.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by enganear For the solenoid to control the pressure at the wastegate by opening and closing a connection to atmosphere (pulse width modulation), there must be some restriction in the line to the manifold, otherwise there would be nothing to control. -enganear

What? Maybe I don't understand what you are implying so explain a little more. What I can tell you is that only very old turbo cars (mostly imports) the WRX (06 or older), early mistsus and this car are the only ones that I can think of that has a restriction in line. Here is just a small list of cars that don't have one:

SRT4 Neon and Caliber
Every EVO
Newer WRX and STI
Citron
Audi
VW
Ford RS
Every Nissan I have ever worked on
and so on and so on.

So why can these cars control the WGA but Mazda can not with out a restriction? Its a failsafe, thats all. Unless you know something that I don't or I am missing something in what you are saying???

I also wanted to add that every MBC on the market doesn't have a restriction and high end EBC as well. I have no idea why you would want one.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 This is for a boost source, after the turbo, not before. ATP QuickTap The quick tap is included with the big turbo upgrade.

Before turbo? Do you mean in the compressor housing? Sorry never heard before turbo as a pressure source.

[enganear]

Originally Posted by ptperformance What? Maybe I don't understand what you are implying so explain a little more. What I can tell you is that only very old turbo cars (mostly imports) the WRX (06 or older), early mistsus and this car are the only ones that I can think of that has a restriction in line. Here is just a small list of cars that don't have one: SRT4 Neon and Caliber Every EVO Newer WRX and STI Citron Audi VW Ford RS Every Nissan I have ever worked on and so on and so on. So why can these cars control the WGA but Mazda can not with out a restriction? Its a failsafe, thats all. Unless you know something that I don't or I am missing something in what you are saying??? I also wanted to add that every MBC on the market doesn't have a restriction and high end EBC as well. I have no idea why you would want one.

I have no experience with the other cars you list. If you look at the schematic artfully conveyed by Palerider, you can see that that the vacuum/pressure at the wastegate is regulated by referencing to atmosphere. This is done by cycling the solenoid valve with a pwm signal to control the duty cycle in a closed loop with boost pressure as the target. If there were no restriction in the line to the manifold, opening the solenoid valve would just result in a massive leak from the manifold to the inlet pipe and little if any change in pressure at the wastegate.

The electrical analogy would be a voltage divider....
-enganear

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by enganear I have no experience with the other cars you list. If you look at the schematic artfully conveyed by Palerider, you can see that that the vacuum/pressure at the wastegate is regulated by referencing to atmosphere. This is done by cycling the solenoid valve with a pwm signal to control the duty cycle in a closed loop with boost pressure as the target. If there were no restriction in the line to the manifold, opening the solenoid valve would just result in a massive leak from the manifold to the inlet pipe and little if any change in pressure at the wastegate. The electrical analogy would be a voltage divider.... -enganear

Sorry never looked at the drawing. There is a part missing from it, a leak at the solenoid to control the line pressure. If he in fact has it set up that way then I can see the problem. BOV is opening when the boost controller is bleeding boost to control the WGA.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Sorry never looked at the drawing. There is a part missing from it, a leak at the solenoid to control the line pressure. If he in fact has it set up that way then I can see the problem. BOV is opening when the boost controller is bleeding boost to control the WGA.

In a way thats good though, right. Once we hit target boost, with the big turbo.... wouldnt we want to bleed off anything over that anyway?

The fact that the wastegate... AND the blowoff valve may be opening when the solenoid bleeds off excess boost... is not really bad is it? It might not be typical but it still works....right?

[CraigHJr]

I do not think that it is advised to run them on the same line. The bov shouldn't open to regulate boost. Why not just add the quick tap to run the set up with the same configuration as stock?

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by palerider In a way thats good though, right. Once we hit target boost, with the big turbo.... wouldnt we want to bleed off anything over that anyway? The fact that the wastegate... AND the blowoff valve may be opening when the solenoid bleeds off excess boost... is not really bad is it? It might not be typical but it still works....right?

yes opening the BOV is a bad way of bleeding off boost that is why they make Wastegates to begin with. Like said a few times now just tap into the hot end of the charge pipes like the Quick tap does or into the actual pipe right after the turbo like we do. It works just fine

[phailerider]

will do

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Before turbo? Do you mean in the compressor housing? Sorry never heard before turbo as a pressure source.

Did you read the post?

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 This is for a boost source, after the turbo, not before. ATP QuickTap The quick tap is included with the big turbo upgrade.

[4DRHTRD]

For all who read them, it took me awhile to remember my whole ordeal with trying to control boost since it was Mar 2007. The problem is the factory 15 psi WGA that comes on the 3071R/3076R/GT35R turbo setups from ATP. You MUST order the 7 psi WGA when you order the turbo and have them replace the 15 psi with that one. The only way you have the ability to control boost is with the factory IC and factory DP (with cat) due to the very restrictive nature of both. The second you replace your IC and or DP you raise the minimum boost to +3psi per mod (typically) due to the less restrictive nature of an aftermarket IC and free flowing exhaust. DO NOT install the ATP turbo setups without changing out the WGA to the 7PSI setup (minimum psi would be around 13 psi or less which is acceptable) so that either the factory ECU/MBC or piggyback can control boost.

[trufanatic]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD For all who read them, it took me awhile to remember my whole ordeal with trying to control boost since it was Mar 2007. The problem is the factory 15 psi WGA that comes on the 3071R/3076R/GT35R turbo setups from ATP. You MUST order the 7 psi WGA when you order the turbo and have them replace the 15 psi with that one. The only way you have the ability to control boost is with the factory IC and factory DP (with cat) due to the very restrictive nature of both. The second you replace your IC and or DP you raise the minimum boost to +3psi per mod (typically) due to the less restrictive nature of an aftermarket IC and free flowing exhaust. DO NOT install the ATP turbo setups without changing out the WGA to the 7PSI setup (minimum psi would be around 13 psi or less which is acceptable) so that either the factory ECU/MBC or piggyback can control boost.

i said this same exact thing quite a while ago. 14.7psi spring from ATP is too much to START tuning with.