Im in the smoking turbo club.:(

[berub9a2]

is the check valve the pcv valve?

[jweller]

you know a lot of the honda guys with aftermarket turbos have problems wiht smoking turbos, and a lot of time they slove it with a restrictor in the feed line. I would have assumed that an OEM would have gotten this right, but maybe not.

kraz3y - a check valve is just a one-way valve. the PCV is one example of a check valve.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Originally Posted by FCmaniac Here's a post I found on an SRT forum: If you have a car that resembles a James Bond tricked out SRT-4, please take the time and check this out. A turbo drains its oil from gravity, nothing more and nothing less. If there is any restriction in the turbo's drain path back to the pan, oil will build up in the center housing. This oil is going to take the path of least resistance and will leak out of the turbine's side piston ring and turn into blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. Most of your friends are going to tell you that you have a blown seal, and that your turbo needs to be rebuilt. 99% of the time, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. We get turbos in the shop everyday for rebuild because of the mysterious "blown seal" theory that lingers around every intarweb forum that deals with any turbo vehicle. These turbos are perfectly fine, and don't need a rebuild 99% of the time. I'm putting this explaination together to help all of you save time and energy before you feel the need to send a turbo back to us for rebuild. Lately, we've noticed a trend with some of the available "check valves" in this market that some shops are selling. Moreso, there are part numbers floating around this forum from industrial supply companies that many people are buying and installing. Most of these check valves will not work properly to allow enough crankcase venting so the turbo can sufficiently drain. We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself. That same company offers a check valve with 3/8" NPT ports and the valve size is .460". This valve is FTW, period. We put the 1/4"NPT check valve on the car, let it sit at idle for 30 minutes. After about 20 minutes, the car started smoking, and got progressively worse over the next 10 minutes. Keep in mind, this is on a car that never smoked before. We then installed the 3/8" NPT check valve on the car and let it idle for 30 minutes. No smoke at all. We then put the smaller check valve back in, and instantly started smoking again.

More information / pictures of this please!

[FCmaniac]

I don't know enough about our cars yet to answer these questions. I'm just posting these to get discussion going. Hopefully some of the gurus will chime in.

[FCmaniac]

[QUOTE=jweller;62481]you know a lot of the honda guys with aftermarket turbos have problems wiht smoking turbos, and a lot of time they slove it with a restrictor in the feed line. I would have assumed that an OEM would have gotten this right, but maybe not.
QUOTE]

I think this could be a great idea.

Also I wonder if a different size PCV valve would help or hurt the problem?

[FCmaniac]

"The PCV valve is simple, but actually performs a complicated control function. An internal restrictor (generally a cone or ball) is held in "normal" (engine off, zero vacuum) position with a light spring, exposing the full size of the PCV opening to the intake manifold. With the engine running, the tapered end of the cone is drawn towards the opening in the PCV valve, restricting the opening proportionate to the level of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. At idle, the intake manifold vacuum is near maximum. It is at this time the least amount of blow by is actually occurring, so the PCV valve provides the largest amount of (but not complete) restriction. As engine load increases, vacuum on the valve decreases proportionally and blow by increases proportionally. Sensing a lower level of vacuum, the spring returns the cone to the "open" position to allow more air flow."


Perhaps there is too much pressure in our crankcase at idle causing the oil to not drain adequately from the turbo oil drain line.

[bova]

i like that idea of the turbo in the oil not draining correctly. it makes sense because smoking usually occurs after long idle or sometimes after you have your car sit for a period of time and start it back up.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by FCmaniac We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself.

It sounds great in theory.

However, people still get smoking from completely REMOVING the crankcase vent recirc tube and in its place putting a breather filter.

That being said, there is still quite a bit of restriction in the baffle on the valve cover.... maybe that is a contributing factor in the "restriction" theory.

[bova]

we aren't talking about the crankcase vent, we are talking about the pcv located near the front bottom portion of the block that connects to the intake manifold.

most of us running catch cans are running 2 pcv valves. i wonder what would happen if instead we tried larger size pcv valves.

[jweller]

My understanding of the problem on hondas, has to do with oil pressure on the feed line, not the PCV system,although a lot of Honda guys do run seriously modified crankcase ventilation systems. Hondas run 70 - 80 psi of oil pressure. Not sure what the DISI motor has.

wouldn't the turbo manufacturer have a spec for oiling? something expressed in gal/hour @ psi or something like that. I can't imagine they don't know how much oil the turbo needs, or what is too much.

Also, that CSRT article isn't specific as to where said check valve is going. Anyone got a better writeup/more info.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mdogg It sounds great in theory. However, people still get smoking from completely REMOVING the crankcase vent recirc tube and in its place putting a breather filter. That being said, there is still quite a bit of restriction in the baffle on the valve cover.... maybe that is a contributing factor in the "restriction" theory.

Putting in a breather will make it worse because you are never pulling any crankcase pressure which results in more blowby.

[MTuning]

hondas usually smoke if they keep their existing pcv system. from my understanding, a pcv valve works great in vacuum but provides incorrect crank case ventilation to push oil through the pistons, causing blow by. the fix for this is to remove the pcv and add catch cans. valve cover is a good place to vent into the catch can. atleast this is my setup. oh, and restrictors do help keep seals from going bad but its usually rule of thumb on ball bearing. Journals should hold pressure pretty good but who knows with the awesome k04 seals. how much pressure at WOT do the ms3 produce?

however, it seems the OP already has a catch can so idk

[SharkDiver]

I dont think my CC is stopping all the oil tho..Just today I wanted to see what would happen if I removed the pcv I have on the intake hose coming from the CC.When I took the pcv out there was oil in that line after the CC..
I removed the pcv to see if my smoking would stop and so far after about 40 miles there isnt any smoke at idle but Im sure it will be there soon enough since oil is getting thru my CC.I think oil is coming into the cc and then the outlet hose is sucking it up because the in/out is right next to each other.Im going to take the CC apart and put a extenstion on the inlet side to stop this.I didnt mention this before but when I installed my CC a few months ago I didnt put a pcv in the hose untill a few weeks ago.I was reading somewhere that the pcvs from 97 supras are good because they are made out of steel and work great so I got one of those to put in the line.A few days later the smoking started so that is why I removed it to see what happens.
It looks like I wll be working on my CC this weekend and maybe this smoking will stop..

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I'm not totally convinced the CC is the fix, or even the pcv ..

There has been a post on another forum where a members car with DP and catless exhaust was smoking like mf, a turbo inlet was installed and since the install the smoking has stopped.

Could this simply be opening up the airway and letting the turbo pull air from the intake instead of oil passed the seals?...

[dukebrown]

I have a a turbo inlet and short ram with PG mani and CS DP, I am smoking like a mofo. Ohya the car did not even want to start now 3 days after it started to smoke. It ran 4 days before it smoked, and now does not start. Some computer error, not something mechanical.

[802MS3]

ouch. any cats?

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by dukebrown I have a a turbo inlet and short ram with PG mani and CS DP, I am smoking like a mofo. Ohya the car did not even want to start now 3 days after it started to smoke. It ran 4 days before it smoked, and now does not start. Some computer error, not something mechanical.

Are you throwing a CEL?Not starting should have nothing to do with the turbo.

[zoom1&zoom2]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver Im wondering it I will be ok to run it with the seals leaking?I will have to look into this.

I think you'll be fine... my MS6 used to smoke...but once I went to castrol 5W40 it stopped smoking. go get 6 qt's of 5W40 and go kick the mustangs ass!

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by zoom1&zoom2 I think you'll be fine... my MS6 used to smoke...but once I went to castrol 5W40 it stopped smoking. go get 6 qt's of 5W40 and go kick the mustangs ass!

I already did...this thread is about 6 months old.. Also I ordered a re built KO4 from PG months ago.It started smoking after 3k miles tho but Im still using it.

[SharkDiver]

Oh and you can watch me kicking the mustangs asses in my sig because I video taped them....

[2k6speed6]

I read about this issue so many times. But the majority of the people including myself notice that the exhaust smokes after you remove your cats. I have my car to stock now and seems to be fine. I dont think its a problem with the turbo seals.

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by 2k6speed6 I read about this issue so many times. But the majority of the people including myself notice that the exhaust smokes after you remove your cats. I have my car to stock now and seems to be fine. I dont think its a problem with the turbo seals.

Thats true but most are saying its smoking because the cats are no longer there and not giving the turbo any back pressure causing the seals to leak..Im no turbo expert so Im just going by what ive read on the forums.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

So ... are the catted downpipes smoking?

[stormin84]

i have a cp-e catted downpipe and i get some smoking issues

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by stormin84 i have a cp-e catted downpipe and i get some smoking issues

What oil are you running?ie 5W40 or 5W30?

[glocK23]

5w30 fully catless turboxs, no smoke @ all....going onto 16K miles now.

[silversurfer3]

dont worry everyone on these boards with any kind of KO4 turbo will have problems soonerr or later FTL

[mazspd6]

I am completely stock on my exhaust and I am smoking like a mofo!!

I was smoking a little at times my brother told me once, but never to this degree.

I have a couple possibilities for this.

1. I did 5W20 for the first time on my last oil change, before that I always had 5W30. I took it out tonight and put in 5W40, still smoking
for the moment...we'll see.
2. I recently did my catch can install with the second PCV on the intake side.
3. I am throwing codes right now in combination with the smoking heavily.

WTF is going on!!!

[SharkDiver]

You need to find out what code you are throwing for starters.Also are you sure you have your pcv flowing in the right direction?That could cause problems building up pressure in your crank case.If you still have a warranty you could just take it to the dealer and let them figure it out.

[08_ms3_gt]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver If you still have a warranty you could just take it to the dealer and let them figure it out.

x2 but make sure you uninstall the PCV and OCC first. that'd be an easy warranty-voider, seeing as they'll yank the warranty for putting in a tee for a boost gauge line.

... and why did you try 5W-20?

[mazspd6]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver You need to find out what code you are throwing for starters.Also are you sure you have your pcv flowing in the right direction?That could cause problems building up pressure in your crank case.If you still have a warranty you could just take it to the dealer and let them figure it out.

The PCV is facing the right direction, I revisited it this weekend and it is the same as in the
COBB install and the one on the MS3 forums...so it is right.

Is it absolutely necessary to have that second PCV in place...isn't that what the catch can is for since we already have the stock one in use?

I used 5W20 because it was all they had in stock and I didn't know that it was a problem at the time. I replaced it yesterday with 5W40.

How long should it take before it would logically stop smoking once the oil had been changed out? Today it still smoked, not as bad as it was, but certainly it's easily noticable.

I have had my Catch Can in place for about 500 miles and it was bone dry...does that seem right?

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by mazspd6 The PCV is facing the right direction, I revisited it this weekend and it is the same as in the COBB install and the one on the MS3 forums...so it is right. Is it absolutely necessary to have that second PCV in place...isn't that what the catch can is for since we already have the stock one in use? I used 5W20 because it was all they had in stock and I didn't know that it was a problem at the time. I replaced it yesterday with 5W40. How long should it take before it would logically stop smoking once the oil had been changed out? Today it still smoked, not as bad as it was, but certainly it's easily noticable. I have had my Catch Can in place for about 500 miles and it was bone dry...does that seem right?

I dont know about having 2 pcvs.You would think just having 1 after the cc would be enough.It should not take long to stop smoking after you changed to 5W40 so if its still smoking I would think that the oil is not going to fix your problem.Also you may want to make sure you cc hoses are not callapsing.Did you check to see if you are getting oil thru your intake breather coming from the valve cover?maybe oil is getting in thru there,I never get oil thru mine but some people have.

[stormin84]

Originally Posted by stormin84 i have a cp-e catted downpipe and i get some smoking issues

Originally Posted by SharkDiver What oil are you running?ie 5W40 or 5W30?

i'm running 5w-30...
the question that i have is should i switch it out to 5w-40 or take it to the dealership when i hit my one year service check over. and have them check my whole car (with the smoking problem). or would the dealership put in the 5w-40 with no problem (the recommended oil is 5w-30 according to mazda)

[mazspd6]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver I dont know about having 2 pcvs.You would think just having 1 after the cc would be enough. Also you may want to make sure you cc hoses are not callapsing. Did you check to see if you are getting oil thru your intake breather coming from the valve cover?maybe oil is getting in thru there,I never get oil thru mine but some people have.

OK, first..sorry if any confusion, I already have just one PCV after the catch can, the two I would be referring to would be the original stock location before the can, and then one after.
I am talking about only having the stock one and the catch can with no extra one after that because it seems to me that their may not be a need for a second one if the catch can is supposed to catch the bad stuff and then send it up to the intake manifold.

I used the hardcore Jegs line...their is no way it's collapsing, but thanks for the heads up.

I did not check the intake breather, I'll look at it soon.

It just seems like alot of this has happened since I put that can on, It may be just coincidence, but it bothers me just the same.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by mazspd6 OK, first..sorry if any confusion, I already have just one PCV after the catch can, the two I would be referring to would be the original stock location before the can, and then one after. I am talking about only having the stock one and the catch can with no extra one after that because it seems to me that their may not be a need for a second one if the catch can is supposed to catch the bad stuff and then send it up to the intake manifold. I used the hardcore Jegs line...their is no way it's collapsing, but thanks for the heads up. I did not check the intake breather, I'll look at it soon. It just seems like alot of this has happened since I put that can on, It may be just coincidence, but it bothers me just the same.

Maybe I can help with my experiences...I also have smoke and TBE...Ok, I got a PG OCC that had a breather on it. I was running stage 2 SF 93 map. I was running +20 LTFT at idle and 10ish at accel and crusing speed. I was then informed the breather was causing my extreme lean conditions...and it was. So if you have a breather, you may want to eliminate that...My LTFT's went way down but still near 10 at idle, accel and cruise... after trying 4 different maps, I finally got one, stage 2 SF TMIC, that gives me LTFT below 5 in all driving conditions. For the record, I don't have a aftermaket TMIC. I am going to perform the seafoaming cleaning, oil change with either 5w-40 or 10w-40, get another set of 1-step colder plugs because my current ones are gapped at .27 but found out they are suppose to be between .30-.32 and reoil my Cobb SF. I realize only 1 or 2 of these can/will have any possible effect on my smoking issue but I gotta try...I will post my results and plan on doing all of these in the next 2 weeks at the same time.

Oh ya...I only get about 1 TBSP of liquid in my OCC per week.

[mazspd6]

This quote sticks in my head alot.

Originally Posted by FCmaniac Here's a post I found on an SRT forum: A turbo drains its oil from gravity, nothing more and nothing less. If there is any restriction in the turbo's drain path back to the pan, oil will build up in the center housing. This oil is going to take the path of least resistance and will leak out of the turbine's side piston ring and turn into blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. Most of your friends are going to tell you that you have a blown seal, and that your turbo needs to be rebuilt. 99% of the time, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. We get turbos in the shop everyday for rebuild because of the mysterious "blown seal" theory that lingers around every intarweb forum that deals with any turbo vehicle. These turbos are perfectly fine, and don't need a rebuild 99% of the time. I'm putting this explaination together to help all of you save time and energy before you feel the need to send a turbo back to us for rebuild. Lately, we've noticed a trend with some of the available "check valves" in this market that some shops are selling. Moreso, there are part numbers floating around this forum from industrial supply companies that many people are buying and installing. Most of these check valves will not work properly to allow enough crankcase venting so the turbo can sufficiently drain. We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself. That same company offers a check valve with 3/8" NPT ports and the valve size is .460". This valve is FTW, period. We put the 1/4"NPT check valve on the car, let it sit at idle for 30 minutes. After about 20 minutes, the car started smoking, and got progressively worse over the next 10 minutes. Keep in mind, this is on a car that never smoked before. We then installed the 3/8" NPT check valve on the car and let it idle for 30 minutes. No smoke at all. We then put the smaller check valve back in, and instantly started smoking again.

The only reason it's sticking in my head is because I used the Purolator 1016 instead of the stocker and I know it is a 1/4 NPT and I even thought when I bought it "man that's a small hole" and it just makes me wonder if the stocker isn't larger than the 1016 enough that the crankcase can vent properly and the 1016 may be choking it up with too small of a passage considering I'm dropping down from 5/8" line to a 1/4" NPT and an even smaller opening.

I am thinking that either I switch to a 3/8" NPT larger port PCV valve or just do away with the second one altogether...it's just an idea.

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by stormin84 i'm running 5w-30... the question that i have is should i switch it out to 5w-40 or take it to the dealership when i hit my one year service check over. and have them check my whole car (with the smoking problem). or would the dealership put in the 5w-40 with no problem (the recommended oil is 5w-30 according to mazda)

The dealer will not put 5W40 in your car,I would just put it in myself and not tell them.If you have a smoking turbo and you still have a warranty then take it in and let them deal with it.When you get it back change the oil again and put the 5W40 back in just to be safe.

[SharkDiver]

Originally Posted by mazspd6 OK, first..sorry if any confusion, I already have just one PCV after the catch can, the two I would be referring to would be the original stock location before the can, and then one after. I am talking about only having the stock one and the catch can with no extra one after that because it seems to me that their may not be a need for a second one if the catch can is supposed to catch the bad stuff and then send it up to the intake manifold. I used the hardcore Jegs line...their is no way it's collapsing, but thanks for the heads up. I did not check the intake breather, I'll look at it soon. It just seems like alot of this has happened since I put that can on, It may be just coincidence, but it bothers me just the same.

Oh I was not thinking about the stock pcv...Oops..Then I would stick with that setup running both those pcvs,Thats the setup I have.You want the second pcv to keep from building up pressure inside your cc is what Ive read.

[pidass]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver The dealer will not put 5W40 in your car,I would just put it in myself and not tell them.If you have a smoking turbo and you still have a warranty then take it in and let them deal with it.When you get it back change the oil again and put the 5W40 back in just to be safe.

That's not true, that's all the dealer puts in my car. They were putting in 10w-30 for the first 2 changes I got done then they switched to 5w-40. When I asked them about it they said that is what Mazda recommends now for synthetic for this car.

[FCmaniac]

Originally Posted by pidass That's not true, that's all the dealer puts in my car. They were putting in 10w-30 for the first 2 changes I got done then they switched to 5w-40. When I asked them about it they said that is what Mazda recommends now for synthetic for this car.

This is the first I'm hearing of a dealer in the US recommending 5w40 for our engine (not that I disagree).