intake manifolds...

[bombdotcom]

is anyone developing opne of these for us?? i wonder if we got enough interest if cosworth could make one for us...they have it for the 2.3 focus so it should be all that hard to do. does anyone know how to get something like this started? i think we'd all be game for it

[superskaterxes]

PTP is making one. sit tight.

[ms3guy22]

i would not waste my money on cosworth. way to over priced!!!

[redspeed]

It is available for the regular mz3 2.3 NA. But is not compatible with the DISI head.

[bombdotcom]

ya i kno its not compatible, but a nice piece. is there a thread in regards to ptp's?? i know steed was talkin about interest in an intake manifold. i love the exhaust mani but i guess we'lll have to wait till thats even done. it sucks hes in canada, i have a feeling if he was in the states this would be alot faster!

[socks]

your right, only because he used me (in the states) for the test fitting, which is a 2 week shipping process. Luckily, he was VERY close on the first go, so there was no sending back and forth...

[08_ms3_gt]

Originally Posted by bombdotcom is anyone developing opne of these for us?? i wonder if we got enough interest if cosworth could make one for us...they have it for the 2.3 focus so it should be all that hard to do. does anyone know how to get something like this started? i think we'd all be game for it

x2 i'm interested. they are useful for reducing turbo lag with a big turbo setup (right?).

[SLS MS3]

Originally Posted by 08_ms3_gt x2 i'm interested. they are useful for reducing turbo lag with a big turbo setup (right?).

I think you're thinking about an exhaust manifold.

[08_ms3_gt]

Originally Posted by SLS MS3 I think you're thinking about an exhaust manifold.

no.

exhaust manifolds help as well, but i was definitely talking about the intake side. the increased flow INTO the engine helps with the flow OUT of the engine, which helps the turbo spool faster/sooner.

on BT 1.8T VW's lag could be reduced by 200RPM's as well as adding a fair amount of hp and tq.

[steedspeed]

PTP is going to have a go. They asked me to quote on machining some flanges etc. I was going to do one myself but I have way too much work as it is till I move to a bigger shop and get some more machines + employees.

[ATE BALLER]

Come down here to the states. Shops and employees are a dime a dozen these days.

[steedspeed]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Come down here to the states. Shops and employees are a dime a dozen these days.

I was actually looking at Oregon last year but it was a big PITA to try and apply to move to the US so I gave up on it.

[4thStroke]

Make me parts for free and we can smuggle you into my place. We have a shop here and a guest house with your name on it!

[darkstarmotorsports]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Come down here to the states. Shops and employees are a dime a dozen these days.

LOL, so true!!

[mazdaspeed619sd]

Where are you located anywase steed?

[SLS MS3]

Originally Posted by 08_ms3_gt no. exhaust manifolds help as well, but i was definitely talking about the intake side. the increased flow INTO the engine helps with the flow OUT of the engine, which helps the turbo spool faster/sooner. on BT 1.8T VW's lag could be reduced by 200RPM's as well as adding a fair amount of hp and tq.

Aren't the stock intake manifolds on VWs really restrictive? Not that it isn't a restriction, but the IM on these motors does not seem to be the most restrictive area in the intake stream. Just for comparison sake, let's take a look at Evo's. The stock manifolds on those aren't overly restrictive either, and putting on jusst about any of the aftermarket pieces available results in a loss of lowend power with gains in the mid to upper rpm range.

[SSinstaller]

I don't think losing a little low rpm torque on a FWD MS3 would be a bad thing... I wouldn't mind it on my MS6..

[demonspeed]

That and the ratio of lost torque to higher flowing IM would be completely different on the DISI motor compared to a 4G63 due to the MZR's higher compression.

[SLS MS3]

I don't think sacrificing a little low-end power for much greater gains up top is a bad thing either, I was just commenting about how a better intake manifold would help eliminate some boost lag. I already hit 19psi by 3100rpms with the stock turbo, I think a little BT lag wouldn't hurt.

[X4 SRT]

An intake manifold on any modern turbo street driven car is a total waste of money. Spend your money on something that is going to actually give you gains that are worthwhile.

[bombdotcom]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT An intake manifold on any modern turbo street driven car is a total waste of money. Spend your money on something that is going to actually give you gains that are worthwhile.

im not arguing cuz i have no idea, but what wouldnt u get any gains?

[X4 SRT]

Originally Posted by bombdotcom im not arguing cuz i have no idea, but what wouldnt u get any gains?

I'm not saying you won't get any gains. I'm saying the gains you're going to get, and the price of an intake manifold are not going to be worth your money. If you wanna improve the rate at which air gets into the motor start with stuff that is really going to work. Cams would be first on my list. You are going to get much better gains from a cam than from an IM, and cams will probably be cheaper. Or a bigger turbo will do the trick. Thats the great thing about FI cars; you can just cram more air into the motor.

If the car were NA, then an IM would be on the list of things to get. Anything that is going to help get air into the motor is really going to help. The goal with any NA motor is to get the highest VE possble. This is just not a problem on FI cars, because again, you can just cram more air in.

I will state though that if I were building a bad ass FI drag car or race car, then yes an IM would be someting I would buy. Why? Because I'm trying to get every last bit of hp out of the motor. But for a daily driven street car? Total waste of money. Spend your hard earnd money on something more worthwhile.

[medieval]

I'm going to have to say you are very much wrong and don’t know where your knowledge on this subject derived from.
Turbochargers increase engine power because they increase the volumetric efficiency.
If the intake system restricts the amount of air and/or fuel that reaches the cylinders, then your engine will make less power. Larger cam profiles are void unless they have an intake they can breath through.

The intake volume, runner size, diameter, plenum size, acoustic behavior, etc plays a huge role in how the car will perform.
By choosing the right length and diameter of an intake manifold’s runners, an intake manifold can be "tuned" for optimum power at a given RPM range.
Rule of thumb is longer, smaller diameter runners provide better lower RPM performance because they have a lower resonant frequency. The smaller diameter helps increase the air velocity. This creates more low end torque due to a high velocity and large volume of air.
On the other hand short larger diameter runners help high rpm torque.

The length of the runner is about acoustic/frequency tuning. The length determines the timing of the returning pulse.
I can go on and on, look up helmholtz calculations and educate yourself

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT An intake manifold on any modern turbo street driven car is a total waste of money. Spend your money on something that is going to actually give you gains that are worthwhile.

Sounds like something a person whos out of mod money would say...

Scroll back to April of 2003... Kenne Bell releases the Lightning Blower.... We start conversating about a larger and taller plenum and someone just like you, said exactly the same thing. Several versions of this small plenum piece yield 17hp on one design to the wheels and 43hp with the larger design.

Bench racing 101.. loses each and every time.. More air + more efficient flow = MORE POWER.

[X4 SRT]

Originally Posted by medieval I'm going to have to say you are very much wrong and don’t know where your knowledge on this subject derived from. Turbochargers increase engine power because they increase the volumetric efficiency. If the intake system restricts the amount of air and/or fuel that reaches the cylinders, then your engine will make less power. The intake volume, runner size, diameter, plenum size, acoustic behavior, etc plays a huge role in how the car will perform. By choosing the right length and diameter of an intake manifold’s runners, an intake manifold can be "tuned" for optimum power at a given RPM range. Rule of thumb is longer, smaller diameter runners provide better lower RPM performance because they have a lower resonant frequency. The smaller diameter helps increase the air velocity. This creates more low end torque due to a high velocity and large volume of air. On the other hand short larger diameter runners help high rpm torque. The length of the runner is about acoustic/frequency tuning. The length determines the timing of the returning pulse. I can go on and on, look up helmholtz calculations and educate yourself

Those are all great points you have made, and I already knew all that stuff. I just wasn't really gonna get that into it. I still stand by what I said before about an IM being a waste of money on a daily driven FI car. Oh, and VE can easily be above 100% on any FI car. Like I said you can just cram in more air. It's much harder to get an NA car to 100% VE, though it can be done by reving the crap out of it and with really good tuning.

We don't really know yet, but I bet the IM doesn't present that large of a restriction until you start making a lot more power than what most people are making on this forum. Look at laloosh. Gt35 and made what 360ish (I could be wrong, I cant remember his exact numbers) on low boost. The IM was not holding him back from making more power. All he had to do was up the boost, and power would probably come fairly easy. I also know a lot of guys in the Subaru world that are making good power, and have not touched the IM at all, hell most of them haven't even touched the exhaust manifold. Guys with gt30's gt35's making anywhere between 400 and 550whp. Sure they could replace the IM and make more power, but IM's for a subaru are running about 1500 bucks. I would think an IM for us would be around 1k to purchase maybe more.

Again, I don't doubt that an aftermarket IM will make more power than the stock one. I say again, that I just don't think the gains are worth the cost on a daily driven FI car. I think people are missing that last part.

I'd also like to say to medieval, nice exhaust manifold. Out of all the ones on the market, yours looks the best without a doubt. The wields are very nice, the flange is nice and thick, and most of all the merge collector is very nice. Out of all the other EM, you hands down have the nicest if not the only true pyramid merge collector. So I know you know your stuff and what you're talking about. All the other EM just look pretty, and I think that's fooling a lot of people about what a good EM really is.

[medieval]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT Those are all great points you have made, and I already knew all that stuff. I just wasn't really gonna get that into it. I still stand by what I said before about an IM being a waste of money on a daily driven FI car. Oh, and VE can easily be above 100% on any FI car. Like I said you can just cram in more air. It's much harder to get an NA car to 100% VE, though it can be done by reving the crap out of it and with really good tuning. We don't really know yet, but I bet the IM doesn't present that large of a restriction until you start making a lot more power than what most people are making on this forum. Look at laloosh. Gt35 and made what 360ish (I could be wrong, I cant remember his exact numbers) on low boost. The IM was not holding him back from making more power. All he had to do was up the boost, and power would probably come fairly easy. I also know a lot of guys in the Subaru world that are making good power, and have not touched the IM at all, hell most of them haven't even touched the exhaust manifold. Guys with gt30's gt35's making anywhere between 400 and 550whp. Sure they could replace the IM and make more power, but IM's for a subaru are running about 1500 bucks. I would think an IM for us would be around 1k to purchase maybe more. Again, I don't doubt that an aftermarket IM will make more power than the stock one. I say again, that I just don't think the gains are worth the cost on a daily driven FI car. I think people are missing that last part. I'd also like to say to medieval, nice exhaust manifold. Out of all the ones on the market, yours looks the best without a doubt. The wields are very nice, the flange is nice and thick, and most of all the merge collector is very nice. Out of all the other EM, you hands down have the nicest if not the only true pyramid merge collector. So I know you know your stuff and what you're talking about. All the other EM just look pretty, and I think that's fooling a lot of people about what a good EM really is.

VE typically is over 100% on FI applications. I'll say it again, If the intake system restricts the amount of air and/or fuel that reaches the cylinders, then your engine will make less power. Yes, this person makes X number on the dyno with a stock setup. Does it mean that is optimal, nope. Does it work, yes. Your feelings on having larger cam profiles is useless or will provide minimal gains unless the intake manifold can provide the added air. Everything must work together as a package. Picture the cam as your heart. The duration the heart valves are open, the lift or height the heart valve goes and so on. Picture the intake manifold as your lungs. Your heart can have all the lift and duration you want, but if your lungs are small you will only run so fast. Put a straw in your mouth and go for a run. Will you be able to run, yes. Not as fast or efficient as if you had a larger straw

[X4 SRT]

Originally Posted by medieval VE typically is over 100% on FI applications. I'll say it again, If the intake system restricts the amount of air and/or fuel that reaches the cylinders, then your engine will make less power. Yes, this person makes X number on the dyno with a stock setup. Does it mean that is optimal, nope. Does it work, yes. Your feelings on having larger cam profiles is useless or will provide minimal gains unless the intake manifold can provide the added air. Everything must work together as a package. Picture the cam as your heart. The duration the heart valves are open, the lift or height the heart valve goes and so on. Picture the intake manifold as your lungs. Your heart can have all the lift and duration you want, but if your lungs are small you will only run so fast. Put a straw in your mouth and go for a run. Will you be able to run, yes. Not as fast or efficient as if you had a larger straw

The fact is though, is that you don't know at what power level the stock IM becomes a restriction. I'm gonna bet the cams are more of a restriction than the IM is. Of course neither one of us will really know the answer until someone can provide flow data.

[medieval]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT The fact is though, is that you don't know at what power level the stock IM becomes a restriction. I'm gonna bet the cams are more of a restriction than the IM is. Of course neither one of us will really know the answer until someone can provide flow data.

Not completely true. Do a little math and we can get in the ball park.
Displacement x VE x Redline) / (V x 18.5)

Displacement = Displacement in Liters, VE = Volumetric Efficiency in %, V is the velocity of the air flow in the IM plenum for resonance or roughly 180 ft/sec.


Then we need the throttle body size. The generic view is that the diameter needed for an intake is when the intake has 25% more cross-sectional area than the TB's bore cross-sectional area.

Area of a circle is pi x radius squared and the diameter = 2 x radius.

Calculate your TB's area and then multiply it by 1.33, this is the intake's area. Then, use the area of the circle equation to determine the intake's radius and so on. I can honestly tell you the stock intake manifold has room for improvement.With a properly designed intake manifold gains will be seen. How much, that will depend on the end users setup.

[pidass]

Originally Posted by medieval Not completely true. Do a little math and we can get in the ball park. Displacement x VE x Redline) / (V x 18.5) Displacement = Displacement in Liters, VE = Volumetric Efficiency in %, V is the velocity of the air flow in the IM plenum for resonance or roughly 180 ft/sec. Then we need the throttle body size. The generic view is that the diameter needed for an intake is when the intake has 25% more cross-sectional area than the TB's bore cross-sectional area. Area of a circle is pi x radius squared and the diameter = 2 x radius. Calculate your TB's area and then multiply it by 1.33, this is the intake's area. Then, use the area of the circle equation to determine the intake's radius and so on. I can honestly tell you the stock intake manifold has room for improvement.With a properly designed intake manifold gains will be seen. How much, that will depend on the end users setup.

So does that mean you'll be making one??

[y2kc0wb0y]

You got PM Medievil

[killa cam]

oh jeez

[bombdotcom]

haha u guys lost me