Lets talk about Bigger Throttle Bodies

[ms3blackmica]

Guys now that the new ATR is out some of you should use Live Tracing to help you better pin point problem areas in your map with the larger throttle body.

I worked with David to fix all the live tracing bugs in ATR and although it was not mentioned, he included the fix in the recent update for all mazdaspeed model/years. All tables trace properly now except idle speed stability and WG dynamics which are not available as monitors.

Perhaps you could have a close friend/buddy drive the car for you while you monitor your DBW & Throttle Requested Load Tables to see what cells seem to be problem areas.

I worked with David on this specifically to make troubleshooting problem areas in maps easier. Might as well work with what we have for now.

Hope it helps.

[superskaterxes]

what else was updated and not mentioned lol

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes what else was updated and not mentioned lol

Nothing else.

Just new code for V2 & V3 differences.

[PapaSmurf]

Any Gen2's running this without issues now?

If so would you like to share your tables?

I plan on installing it this weekend if I can get some tables for it.

[ms3blackmica]

I will hopefully have some time to work with one of these throttle bodies on a Gen 1 MS3 and will post up my experience when that time comes.

[802MS3]

only non-speed6 people running this is me and @Snyeed;, and his tables are very similar to mine. It still irritates me at times, but I deal.

[PapaSmurf]

how about @snailD; ?

[Voltwings]

I still have mine if people need things tested, but I literally have put 0 effort into it, it has sat on the shelf since I got it.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf how about @snailD; ?

I believe he was the one who helped tune Snyeed's car.

[alfre127]

I daily with mine but just got use to driving with it.

[snailD]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf how about @snailD; ?

i was doing my testing on snyeeds car, which he ran into motor issues, bought a speed 6, and will be planning out a build real soon. so testing for me is done for some time

[Erich]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 only non-speed6 people running this is me and @Snyeed;, and his tables are very similar to mine. It still irritates me at times, but I deal.

Well, you two and the original car that was running it.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by Erich Well, you two and the original car that was running it.

Feel free to chime in with some advice on how to tune the damn thing.

[Snyeed]

My car was running pretty smooth, not 100% but it was very very driveable.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Snyeed My car was running pretty smooth, not 100% but it was very very driveable.

Are the tables the same from gen1 to gen2?


Sent from your girlfriends tapabedroom

[jmhinkle]

Why not just start go with the multiplication like we did on the 6? I did the initial 75% to the tables like was discussed and then another 2% or so just to smooth it a little more. I also make my own throttle tables because that linear shit has never worked right on my car. I multiplied what I had by the .75 and then did another tweak to it in the low end to make it less touchy. It will still do the initial run away when you first flash it, but the throttle has it's own trims it has to relearn with each flash and that will clear up pretty quick.

[snailD]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle Why not just start go with the multiplication like we did on the 6? I did the initial 75% to the tables like was discussed and then another 2% or so just to smooth it a little more. I also make my own throttle tables because that linear shit has never worked right on my car. I multiplied what I had by the .75 and then did another tweak to it in the low end to make it less touchy. It will still do the initial run away when you first flash it, but the throttle has it's own trims it has to relearn with each flash and that will clear up pretty quick.

with the tables i last posted on Snyeeds car we don't really have any issues upon reflash. this was very noticeable at the beginning of testing but i was able to pretty much get rid of it, it still probably smooths out a tad, but it isn't like FML at all

[Snyeed]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf Are the tables the same from gen1 to gen2? Sent from your girlfriends tapabedroom

@snailD

[snailD]

app tables are scaled differently. DBW tables are the same. i think the speed comp tables look diff if i remember correctly but are basically the same

[ms3blackmica]

Yes the gen 2 APP tables have different breakpoints on the read-only axis.

Also, the gen 2 APP Speed compensation is a 3-Dimensional table with resolution up to 50 MPH.

You know...because at 50 MPH you are thinking about your APP compensations LOL

[Erich]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 Feel free to chime in with some advice on how to tune the damn thing.

I think I discussed what I did earlier in the thread and even posted my tables. In the end I wasn't seeing logical correlations being caused by the changes. Between that and the amount of time you have to let the ECU settle in for throttle changes after a flash I just decided to stop messing with it when I got it to a point that felt decent. I have tried some of the things recommended by others in this thread but have always gone back to what I had.

To be perfectly honest, after two years of driving with it, I don't really notice the issues anymore. I think it is a combination of learning what to do to avoid them and just getting used to them.

If COBB ever releases further tables that have the potential to impact the throttle, I may spend some time revisiting.

[802MS3]

guess we are in the same boat then.

[superskaterxes]

nishan mentioned alot about the load tables at low RPM, that should be a great starting point for anyone who wants to refine it some more. Plenty of tables have been posted and its really up to the end user to fine tune it to their own driving style.

[undergroundak]

Yo MS community,

I have 2 quick questions and maybe some help for the guys tuning the 2nd gen throttle control.
I've got a good tune on a 2011 Speed 3 with a full cpe motor and 35r tubo kit, JM intake and 75mm throttle body.The car laid down 412WHP on pump gas so I am happy with the results this far. Overall drive ability is much better than I was expecting with the intake and throttle body.
I do have 2 issues that I'm trying to overcome and cant find tables to directly adjust out the issues.

1: Anyone "David @ COBB" have any luck tuning the idle start tables on the 2nd gen specifically.This thing revs to 4k rpm at every cold start and then sounds like its hitting a 2 step rev limiter! It continues to pop and misfire for about 15 seconds and then smooths out and runs normal. Hot starts are good. I was told by the throttle body manufacturer that there is no current control for this issue. Hopefully this is not the case because the neigbors arent going to put up with this for long......I assume there are cat light off tables that have not yet been defined.

2:There is a small delay when letting off the throttle. About 1/2 a second. I've attempted to mod all of the throttle tables with no change at all. Again I assume there are tables needed to adjust this directly that are not defined yet.

Other that that everything is great.Any helpful input is greatly appreciated.


Also for anyone looking for good base tables for a 2nd gen speed 3 with the JM intake and a 75mm t-body. Let me know I'll email a tune directly to you. I wont post it up, there are a few local guys in my area that I'm no longer interested in helping and they are probably trolling me right now.......You know who you are.

Thanks,
Nick

[superskaterxes]

you can multiply the Ign comp A tables by 50% and set all the ign timing limits to -3 which should help with the start up issues.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by undergroundak Yo MS community, I have 2 quick questions and maybe some help for the guys tuning the 2nd gen throttle control. I've got a good tune on a 2011 Speed 3 with a full cpe motor and 35r tubo kit, JM intake and 75mm throttle body.The car laid down 412WHP on pump gas so I am happy with the results this far. Overall drive ability is much better than I was expecting with the intake and throttle body. I do have 2 issues that I'm trying to overcome and cant find tables to directly adjust out the issues. 1: Anyone "David @ COBB" have any luck tuning the idle start tables on the 2nd gen specifically.This thing revs to 4k rpm at every cold start and then sounds like its hitting a 2 step rev limiter! It continues to pop and misfire for about 15 seconds and then smooths out and runs normal. Hot starts are good. I was told by the throttle body manufacturer that there is no current control for this issue. Hopefully this is not the case because the neigbors arent going to put up with this for long......I assume there are cat light off tables that have not yet been defined. 2:There is a small delay when letting off the throttle. About 1/2 a second. I've attempted to mod all of the throttle tables with no change at all. Again I assume there are tables needed to adjust this directly that are not defined yet. Other that that everything is great.Any helpful input is greatly appreciated. Also for anyone looking for good base tables for a 2nd gen speed 3 with the JM intake and a 75mm t-body. Let me know I'll email a tune directly to you. I wont post it up, there are a few local guys in my area that I'm no longer interested in helping and they are probably trolling me right now.......You know who you are. Thanks, Nick

The cold start issue on the 3's can be taken care of by pressing lightly on the accel pedal as you crank and start the car, then release right when it turns over. This seems to bypass the cold-start cat-warmup sequence completely.

AFAIK, no one has really been able to fix throttle-close delay. IMO, this feels like the throttle closes too fast, or maybe its a totally different issue. David@COBB seems to think there are some tables related to the decay rate that are yet to be uncovered and given to us.

[undergroundak]

HA! That part throttle at start up makes the cold start acceptable now! What a joke.......
I changed the timing comp tables and it makes no real difference without depressing the throttle a little. My thought is that the cam timing is advancing very aggressively during the idle cold start procedure. The vacuum reads close to 0 when it goes into the cold start crazy mode. If we had control tables for cam advance under varying temps (combined with timing comp) we might have a better shot at really resolving this.
Either way the part throttle trick makes it acceptable until more tables are opened up and defined.

THanks again,
Nick

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by undergroundak and then sounds like its hitting a 2 step rev limiter! It continues to pop and misfire for about 15 seconds and then smooths out and runs normal. Hot starts are good.

This is because you a have Gen 2 MS3 and an intake manifold that does not contain the VTCS runners.

Any Gen 2 with a VTCS delete (even on the stock mani) will do this on a cold start.

Gen 1's and MS6's do not do this (because we rock).

The pedal trick does work though..

[NJSPEED3]

Lmao

[PapaSmurf]

Ive been doing the pedal trick for around a year and a half, i now start any speed I drive that way lol.

[SilverDemon]

All this talk about throttle bodies is for what? I don't even have a TB, I am WOT all the freakin' time....that's the only way the first gens roll

[snailD]

when i first signed up here it seemed like you would only blow at part throttle, so i have made it a point to be WOT everywhere so i dont blow. Still holding strong, so if you were wondering, thats the secret

[rpmteg1]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes same as u but i swapped covers to make it pnp

Hi all,
Sorry to revive an old thread but this noob just needs some info and help. @superskaterxes Just wondering when u said u swapped covers, did u mean the harness connector or the actual 3.6l V6 TB cover w/stock TB? Also, do u recall what the repinning order of the wire harness that needs to be done to get the 3.6l tb working?

[monkey.bones.007]

Originally Posted by rpmteg1 Hi all, Sorry to revive an old thread but this noob just needs some info and help. @superskaterxes Just wondering when u said u swapped covers, did u mean the harness connector or the actual 3.6l V6 TB cover w/stock TB? Also, do u recall what the repinning order of the wire harness that needs to be done to get the 3.6l tb working?

Nice ::Thread Necro::

Cork Sport is making a large (72mm) throttle body specifically for the Speed.

crapatalk it sucks for free