Lets talk about Bigger Throttle Bodies

[phate]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 I'm k04 and itching for one of these. I'll be the k04 guinea pig

I would say that on the K04, the throttle body isn't even close to being a restriction. Neither are lots of other things, and people still change those, so do what pleases you.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate I would say that on the K04, the throttle body isn't even close to being a restriction. Neither are lots of other things, and people still change those, so do what pleases you.

Boom!

already attempted to convey that. It it didn't stick

Lol

3071 is argueable for a larger TB


Tappin

[mrmonk7663]

I do not disagree with the above, but k04 is temporary

[06Speed6]

I am pretty sure that alot of people have a ported oem tb and I think those are only ported 2-3mm and I think its costs like $200 so I think alot of people would jump on a real upgrade even with a ko4. I think what holds alot of people back is that we dont really have any real sponsored cars that showcase real parts and mod paths. If you look at every other car out there they have shop owned cars running fast times, we have... gt40... just saying

Go fast cars sell go fast parts.

[WWPearlMS6]

85MM Too big? And 90?


~JaKe

[mrmonk7663]

Definitely too big lol.

Originally Posted by WWPearlMS6 85MM Too big? And 90? ~JaKe

[06Speed6]

Thats the 80mm hemi tb, it can be ported to those sizes

[superskaterxes]

we dont need a ported TB, we need a stock one thats bigger so we can keep the price down.

anything bigger then 60mm will be better so no use getting a 70mm TB ported to 80mm when you can just buy an 80mm OEM one from a different platform.

[Domino81]

So this discussion is centered around finding a part we can all agree on then getting the eletronics to work?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Domino81 So this discussion is centered around finding a part we can all agree on then getting the eletronics to work?

roughly. the latter part of your statement is alot harder then most think so it may just be a matter of trying 6 different throttle bodies of which 2 work electronically and having the choice between those 2 compared to vise versa.

[bcmurphy87]

Is this the TB we have decide might work best?

Chevrolet GMC Hummer Isuzu Pontiac Saab Throttle Body 3.5L 3.7L 4.2L 5.3L V6 V8 | eBay

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 Is this the TB we have decide might work best? Chevrolet GMC Hummer Isuzu Pontiac Saab Throttle Body 3.5L 3.7L 4.2L 5.3L V6 V8 | eBay

no the one you need is in the OP, which we still dont know if it works or not.

[Domino81]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes roughly. the latter part of your statement is alot harder then most think so it may just be a matter of trying 6 different throttle bodies of which 2 work electronically and having the choice between those 2 compared to vise versa.

I know, frankly, I'm surprised anyone is even attempting it.

[xPEPEx]

Ok! here is the for the part number that Erich stated before. THROTTLE BODY. for DODGE WD75 (2011, 2012) (05184349AC)

It cost $194+ s&h. There is already a solution our platform. We do not need to re-invent the wheel. We just need to figure out the wiring. I guess it would help to take a closer look to Erichs wiring. Its not that hard.
It will obviously not work with the factory IM. Therefore each individual will have tofigure out their own IM solution. There are some people like me that built a IM but are using a factory IM ported ect ect. Its not that hard to redo the IM mounting base to fit this TB.

I like the skun2 idea since their stuff is proven to work, but the dodge TB is already proven to put out.

[bcmurphy87]

I do not think we are reinventing the wheel. I think the purpose of this thread is to find a better and more straight forward approach to this. I for one think there is an easier way to handle this than his current set up.

[06Speed6]

The wiring for the dodge tb can be made pnp with a adapter, everything is the same, its just the plug that is different.

[mrmonk7663]

Do you have links for the plugs that need to be soldered up?

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 The wiring for the dodge tb can be made pnp with a adapter, everything is the same, its just the plug that is different.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 The wiring for the dodge tb can be made pnp with a adapter, everything is the same, its just the plug that is different.

not quite. Pablo started testing and there was a problem with the motor voltages on the stock ECU. still some playing around to do but we will get there.

[superskaterxes]

so pablo gave me the throttle bodies to test at home. i should be able to dig into this project today and get the ball rolling some more.


any chance @Erich would share his wiring with us or if he had to do anything special to make it work other then modifying the ATR tables?

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes im really looking into this but apparently the evos have a smaller TB then us and someone is making 800whp on the stock one........

This a quote from another thread, but I thought it would pertain to this as well.

Skates, do you have any information on "someone" making this power on a smaller TB? I would be intrigued to have some info on it.

[Lex]

Just swap out pedal assembly and TB for cable driven one. Kinda like an MBC for boost control

[06Speed6]

If the motor voltages are different by a little bit I am almost certain that there has to be a table or scaler in the ecu that can be tweaked by a volt or two as long as everything else is the same. Of course I dont know but maybe the tps can also be recalibrated. @Ugnius@VersaTune @Steve@VersaTune

[Erich]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so pablo gave me the throttle bodies to test at home. i should be able to dig into this project today and get the ball rolling some more. any chance @Erich would share his wiring with us or if he had to do anything special to make it work other then modifying the ATR tables?

Give John a call, he is the one who worked the wiring out on my TB.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Erich Give John a call, he is the one who worked the wiring out on my TB.

i suppose that makes sense lol

ill try and ring him after work today

[superskaterxes]

so @SPEED6 KILLAH and i have been working feverishly on this lately and have made tons of head way.

so far we (and by we i mean mostly pablo haha) have figured out that the CX9 TB is too much of a PITA to get working, and the TB that @Erich is using will prob be our best bet. We have also recently discovered the acura TL TB which is ~68mm and almost identically the same bolt pattern as ours.

ive ordered the same TB as erich has and will be doing some serious testing when it comes in. for now im going to try and quantify the restriction of the TB by putting my boost gauge pre-TB and using my MAP sensor as a post-TB reference. If i see a huge pressure drop then i will know that the TB is most certainly a restriction.

anyone have any comments or suggestions for testing?

[06Speed6]

That is how I would test it

[Dano]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so @SPEED6 KILLAH and i have been working feverishly on this lately and have made tons of head way. so far we (and by we i mean mostly pablo haha) have figured out that the CX9 TB is too much of a PITA to get working, and the TB that @Erich is using will prob be our best bet. We have also recently discovered the acura TL TB which is ~68mm and almost identically the same bolt pattern as ours. ive ordered the same TB as erich has and will be doing some serious testing when it comes in. for now im going to try and quantify the restriction of the TB by putting my boost gauge pre-TB and using my MAP sensor as a post-TB reference. If i see a huge pressure drop then i will know that the TB is most certainly a restriction. anyone have any comments or suggestions for testing?

I would just add that your boost gauge needs to read the same as your MAP and if you don't already know this I'd put it on an IM source to see if they are the same first.

They'd have to be pretty damn close to measure a small pressure drop and if you want to be anal...get to identical boost gauges, verify the calibration and test that way.

[superskaterxes]

so i know my boost gauge and MAP are dead on with eachother

@25psi i was only seeing about 1psi more before the TB

@30psi it was more like 1.5-2psi but still super minimal.



does this sound right? i was hoping for much more conclusive results =(

[TiGraySpeed6]

Not entirely sure you're gonna get much more accurate without putting it on a bench to flow test. You just need more control over the testing environment, more consistency, or you'll have a hard time repeating results & verifying anything.

[pinkcheese]

anyone happen to have a diagram with the bolt pattern for this hemi TB? or atleast know the spacing between the bolt holes?

[TWOptSL0W]

Doing some testing with @Speed6killah

[Lex]

I don't see the TB being a restriction even for the BT guys. Anthony was having more pressure loss across his monstrous intercooler than his throttle body. Remember that it's not just the overall diameter but also the length of pipe involved. The throttle body is relatively short so not much energy will be used going through it.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Lex I don't see the TB being a restriction even for the BT guys. Anthony was having more pressure loss across his monstrous intercooler than his throttle body. Remember that it's not just the overall diameter but also the length of pipe involved. The throttle body is relatively short so not much energy will be used going through it.

very true but you have to consider all of the BS between the hotpipe and the TB like tubing bends, the IC itself, ect. my IC is rated to 1000CFM @2psi pressure drop so i doubt you can call it a restriction.



the TB is 60mm which is ~2.36" NOT including the TP itself. after u subtract another 15% for that your down to ~2" even.

starting at the turbo my pipes are 2.5" to 3" IC in/out to 3" cold pipe to 2" TB. regardless of the length of the TB itself its still a restriction in the grand scheme of things.



im going to stay scientific here and do some before after logs along with some SOTP gains reviews and see what i can come up with. as long as i dont loose any drivability theres to reason NOT to upgrade the TB when your shooting for the power i am. we're not talking 450-500 here, my end goal is 600whp on moores dyno and ill be dammed if i dont get it lol. i dont care if i need to do it in the dead of winter and with epic boost, ill get it.



P.S. i got my Jeep TB in the mail yesterday and im going to be testing it today if i can rig something up for a spacer and find a coupler that fits.

[NJSPEED3]

Just read this entire thing finally. No wonder Pablo's been talking to me about tb's for the past month lol.

I think this thread is awesome, one thing we sometimes don't realize is how far behind the ball we are in terms of bolt on upgrades. Most other platforms have various tb upgrades, must be for a reason no? So my hat goes off to you Anthony and Pablo for getting vendors excited about the idea of a new part.

2 things I would like to see.

1. a definitive answer to the limitations of our stock throttle body.

2. what changes must be made to preserve driveability post larger tb?


I'll pitch in a few dollars for dyno time when the time comes, so we can compare your stock tb to the one you guys are working with. This should help shed some light on how good or bad the stock tb flows at Anthony's current numbers which are close to 500awhp.

[pinkcheese]

I'm still at work, so I cannot search it out. But we had a 2009 ford f150 come in with a 4.6 triton v8 for service. The throttle body has what looks to be the exact same connector something that could be looked into. My guess is it is a 75mm or so. And the bolt patten looks to be the same.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese I'm still at work, so I cannot search it out. But we had a 2009 ford f150 come in with a 4.6 triton v8 for service. The throttle body has what looks to be the exact same connector something that could be looked into. My guess is it is a 75mm or so. And the bolt patten looks to be the same.

It will not work it has a different TP sensor it the same a cx-9 TB..

[Dano]

is there anything this guy doesn't know.

[Lex]

Anthony as we discussed this is not about your IC being inefficient, this is about the IC and piping being MORE of a restriction than that TB. So why not go with a super short piping liquid to air IC instead of messing with the TB?

No one will tell you when the TB will become a restriction. It is ALWAYS a restriction. Just like the entire intake tract. People rating it based on HP levels is silly and rather random. Look at your entire intake and exhaust tract and start removing the pieces that have the highest pressure drop across them first while keeping in mind the feasibility of doing so. That way you're removing restrictions from largest to smallest.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex No one will tell you when the TB will become a restriction. It is ALWAYS a restriction. Just like the entire intake tract. People rating it based on HP levels is silly and rather random. Look at your entire intake and exhaust tract and start removing the pieces that have the highest pressure drop across them first while keeping in mind the feasibility of doing so. That way you're removing restrictions from largest to smallest.

Spoken like someone who sat through Fluid Mechanics...

[SilverDemon]

Damn it... you guys are missing the point... it is bigger, so, it must be better... <-----spoken like a true redneck..hahahahaha