my BIG little turbo

[masskaos]

2008-06-08 valves.jpg

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 even if you aren't smoking you should pick one up. Your valves will thank you.

what he said...

here's a pic of my valves when i pulled my intake manifold and installed my oil catch can... ewwwww....

[enganear]

Originally Posted by masskaos Attachment 660 what he said... here's a pic of my valves when i pulled my intake manifold and installed my oil catch can... ewwwww....

Thanks for sharing the pic. How many miles on the car?
-enganear

[masskaos]

23k on the car. 06 model. in about a month i plan on taking off the manifold again to perform the vcts delete, reroute my catch can hoses, and figure out WHY I AM GETTING A CEL FOR MY EGR DELETE! i'll post some follow up pics.

[subparpunk03]

just curious, what kind of oil are you using?

Someone mentioned that PP and eneos have less accumulation than mobil 1... so will using a higher quality synthetic help prevent the gunky valve buildup?

[masskaos]

i changed my oil from about a week prior to this picture with royal purple 5w-30. before that my car was at the dealership and they changed my oil without my permission and used conventional 5w-30. i kept it in the car for about 1,000 miles. before that it was mobil 1 5w-30.

[TRU-BOOST]

i have used PP from day 1. no looking back. it has been proven to drastically outperform mobil 1 which i was using on my other cars.

[shucky]

you have a better pic of your avatar? You finally get those slicks? AWESOME!

[TRU-BOOST]

i had them for a while now, but only got to try 1 run with them and then it rained. i had too much air in them and tried to launch too hard. i spun right through first. then when i shifted to 2nd, they hooked and the car bogged like crazy ! i ran a 13.7 @ 107. not too bad considering it was a horrible run ! this time i will run them at 16psi and do a better burnout. i also have a new turbo and DP this time so times shpould be awesome.
better pic.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by masskaos Attachment 660 what he said... here's a pic of my valves when i pulled my intake manifold and installed my oil catch can... ewwwww....

Thank you for backing up my claims of oil/carbon collection on the back of the intake valves.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go So are you planning to offer some type of PCV/CC kit? If so hurry the hell up. Also, I want to see your CAI to turbo plumbing with lightweight battery kit on the market...

Yes I am waiting on the valves to get here. They were on factory back order for some time. I will have pictures up of the catch cans when we do the FMIC this coming weekend.

[subparpunk03]

My PG rebuilt terbo just showed up. It is being installed on monday. I'm going to have the shop do a before and after dyno run. I'll be running the stock map for the dyno, then I'll give you guys some impressions on how it works with the AP reflashes. Until then, enjoy some more pictures of everything:

[cld12pk2go]

Looks very nice.

Hurry back with some results. :-)

[TRU-BOOST]

dyno results will be cool to see. i plan i have my full set up dynoed shortly after my IC gets here !

[SSMS3]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST i had them for a while now, but only got to try 1 run with them and then it rained. i had too much air in them and tried to launch too hard. i spun right through first. then when i shifted to 2nd, they hooked and the car bogged like crazy ! i ran a 13.7 @ 107. not too bad considering it was a horrible run ! this time i will run them at 16psi and do a better burnout. i also have a new turbo and DP this time so times shpould be awesome. better pic.

are those '05+ Mustang V6 16" wheels?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST dyno results will be cool to see. i plan i have my full set up dynoed shortly after my IC gets here !

Hurry up you cocktease!

[shucky]

yeah, what kinda wheels are those? I was gonna say the same thing ... 16 inch V6 Mustang?

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by shucky yeah, what kinda wheels are those? I was gonna say the same thing ... 16 inch V6 Mustang?

yes they are he got them from his relative.

[TRU-BOOST]

thats what they are ....... and they fit like a glove !! they will work nice with the 2 step i just bought in the GB !! leaving the line with 5psi = yeeeeeee hhhaaaaawwww !!!

[SSMS3]

^ good to know, cheap DR/slick wheels FTW!

[subparpunk03]

Just got the car back from the shop. I am going to hold off on posting my driving impressions until I've had a little more seat time. I will let you guys take a look at the dynos and draw your own conclusions, but there are some things you should know before looking at them.

1)The first dyno sheet is a run I did about a while back, with just the cobb intake

2)The "baseline" in the second dyno (the dotted line) was done with the forge bpv with blue spring NO shims and AP stage 1+ V.1.01

3)The solid line in the second dyno was after the addition of the turbo. There was no time given to let the ecu "adapt" to the new turbo however my personal belief is that it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Still stage 1+.


A few things to take note of with the new turbo: power and torque up top has been improved, but has suffered down low. Why? Well look at the boost. That tells pretty much the whole story. After installing the new turbo, boost is lower than before throughout the whole dyno. As the car learns and adapts I am pretty sure the boost peaks will start getting closer to where it is supposed to be and there will be more power had out of this setup.

Also note that the turbo spools quite a bit slower, if you look at the angle of the torque and boost curves you'll see its not nearly as steep as it was before. So even if I do start hitting the same peak boost, it will still spool a bit more slowly.

AFR looks to be fairly consistent, slightly richer down low and slightly leaner up top (which could explain the bump in power up top)

Please take these dyno's with a grain of salt... this is not the end all definitive answer to "what happens with a reworked k04" question. As I mentioned, I am running the AP stage 1+ reflash, so will the car give more power with the stock map? Will it need some time to adjust? How will it react to both of those things? There are still a lot of questions to be answered, however I feel fairly safe in making the following statements:

1)Reworked K04 works fine with the AP stage 1+ reflash, although I am as yet unsure whether the optimal "tune" is cobb or stock.

2)The potential to make much more power is there with this turbo. Whether an untuned or reflashed ecu will be able to take any advantage from it is still up in the air.

3)This is not the upgrade for you if you are looking for a quick bump in power... spend your $600 on a downpipe, or intercooler. You will not notice much of a difference if you are mostly stock.

Now... since having this installed I have started thinking about the next steps. First, I put two shims into the forge bpv in order to *hopefully* hold a bit more boost and maybe help the spool time a bit. I have a turbo inlet on its way, which will also hopefully help the spool up a bit. The next couple of mods on my list are a long way out from being complete... cobb TBE, steedspeed manifold, and a protune. The manifold and TBE will both help, but once this thing gets a protune, you're going to see the beast really wake up and start whomping on some AWD evo/sti snobs.

[cld12pk2go]

good info

[TRU-BOOST]

i notice similar results. spool up IS slightly slower but trust me when i tell you it gets better over time. my car could not spin the tires in second gear for 2 weeks. then all of a sudden it came back to life !! i also noticed that my MBC needed much more adjustment to make the same boost as the stock turbo. i DID also put my MBC in a new location so i cant say this is from the turbo or the location of the MBC for sure. i will be putting the MBC in its previos spot once i get my forge WGA back ! one thing is for sure...throttle control will make this thing awesome !! the slower spool up if from the clipped fins on the exhaust side. if we can make the throttle actually do what our foot does this thing would spool up much faster because there would be more exhaust flow. that is the same reason we are seeing lower boost levels i think. your exhaust flow is very limited when the stupid ass car only opens the throttle 50% up top.

[MazdaMan13]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST i notice similar results. spool up IS slightly slower but trust me when i tell you it gets better over time. my car could not spin the tires in second gear for 2 weeks. then all of a sudden it came back to life !! i also noticed that my MBC needed much more adjustment to make the same boost as the stock turbo. i DID also put my MBC in a new location so i cant say this is from the turbo or the location of the MBC for sure. i will be putting the MBC in its previos spot once i get my forge WGA back ! one thing is for sure...throttle control will make this thing awesome !! the slower spool up if from the clipped fins on the exhaust side. if we can make the throttle actually do what our foot does this thing would spool up much faster because there would be more exhaust flow. that is the same reason we are seeing lower boost levels i think. your exhaust flow is very limited when the stupid ass car only opens the throttle 50% up top.

so how do you feel about the cp-e flash that gives you full throttle control?

[TRU-BOOST]

i feel i still hate cpe, but if they are the only one to offer it, i just may have to buy it ! i think if i can have 20psi at 6500rpm insted of 12, that would be good for at least 40whp by itself if fule and timing stayed good.

[MazdaMan13]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST i feel i still hate cpe, but if they are the only one to offer it, i just may have to buy it ! i think if i can have 20psi at 6500rpm insted of 12, that would be good for at least 40whp by itself if fule and timing stayed good.

yea same here but they're the only ones putting out good results

[Laloosh]

ptp claim 40-50whp.....yea my ass
this is the 4th reworked turbo dyno ive seen, they all made the same amount of power

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Laloosh ptp claim 40-50whp.....yea my ass this is the 4th reworked turbo dyno ive seen, they all made the same amount of power

It should easily be capable of the claimed increase, if one is capable of tuning for it and providing enough fuel.

Was PTP claiming 40-50 with no other changes? I don't recall reading this.

[Laloosh]

they're claiming 40-50 whp gains and maxing out the stock fuel system.

The other ms3 i saw was tuned with the standback and made 29x whp with fmic/dp/cai/standback/reworked......to me that sounds like a stock turbo dyno

[Lex]

On turbo applications, 75-100% throttle makes very little difference in the upper RPM on small to medium sized turbos. In other words you make about the same power at 75% throttle as you do at 100% roughly speaking. In some cases, the smaller throttle opening promotes velocity and increases torque.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Lex On turbo applications, 75-100% throttle makes very little difference in the upper RPM on small to medium sized turbos. In other words you make about the same power at 75% throttle as you do at 100% roughly speaking. In some cases, the smaller throttle opening promotes velocity and increases torque.

Well this makes a lot of sense because you are placing a load to produce boost. Im sure this is needed on smaller turbos. The argument has been since last year, the big turbos need the 100% throttle.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Lex On turbo applications, 75-100% throttle makes very little difference in the upper RPM on small to medium sized turbos. In other words you make about the same power at 75% throttle as you do at 100% roughly speaking. In some cases, the smaller throttle opening promotes velocity and increases torque.

if the boost didn't drop significantly as does the power and torque, you may have a valid point
but since the power does drop off a cliff after 5500RPM(some way before that), this theory (at least regarding the MS3/MS6) does not apply

[Lex]

Originally Posted by whoosh if the boost didn't drop significantly as does the power and torque, you may have a valid point but since the power does drop off a cliff after 5500RPM(some way before that), this theory (at least regarding the MS3/MS6) does not apply

I had a similar experience with another street car built for midrange. After 5500rpm it was game over but the turbo spooled so early. That turbo could hit 20 psi at 4000 rpm but couldn't get past 11psi at 5500rpm and by 7000 rpm it could only blow hot air. A bigger turbo fixed all that and pushed the power band further in the RPM range but made the car less friendly on the street.

How efficient is the K04 at 15psi at redline on these engines? Are we still on the map or is it blowing hot air? (I have yet to map out airflow requirements for the 2.3 versus the compressor and turbine maps of this turbo).

I agree that the most load on an engine is seen at high rpm in spite of where we've seen these engines blow. The forces on the rotating assembly increase exponentially with RPM and linearly with cylinder pressure (boost). Perhaps it was a safety and reliability thing for Mazda to do.

Even on the other hand perhaps it was emissions related.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex I had a similar experience with another street car built for midrange. After 5500rpm it was game over but the turbo spooled so early. That turbo could hit 20 psi at 4000 rpm but couldn't get past 11psi at 5500rpm and by 7000 rpm it could only blow hot air. A bigger turbo fixed all that and pushed the power band further in the RPM range but made the car less friendly on the street. How efficient is the K04 at 15psi at redline on these engines? Are we still on the map or is it blowing hot air? (I have yet to map out airflow requirements for the 2.3 versus the compressor and turbine maps of this turbo). I agree that the most load on an engine is seen at high rpm in spite of where we've seen these engines blow. The forces on the rotating assembly increase exponentially with RPM and linearly with cylinder pressure (boost). Perhaps it was a safety and reliability thing for Mazda to do. Even on the other hand perhaps it was emissions related.

Hot air beyond about ~8-10 PSI at 6700 RPMs.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Hot air beyond about ~8-10 PSI at 6700 RPMs.

Is that based on the maps or on personal experience and datalogging?

If this is the case, was this the reason Mazda holds boost at those levels at redline?

In my opinion before action can be taken to improve a situation, we MUST know why it is so in the first place. Working in the automotive controls field, I assure you there is a very good reason Mazda has calibrated the car the way they have. Be it longevity, reliability, or emissions, there is a reason for it. If we are to push past the stock calibration, we have to know the reason it is the way it is in order to address the issue directly and be aware of the possible consequences.

[TRU-BOOST]

its BS thats what it is. i did a bunch of IAT vs. boost temp datalogs on my car when i had the stock turbo. even running 20psi and falling to 12-13 at redline, the boost temps were fine. the outside temp was about 70 and the boost temp before any abuse was about 100 degrees. after a few back to back pulls in various gears the boost temp never went over 130. that is nothing !! that was also on a stock IC.

[dadasracecar]

Charles just had his ms6 reflashed to keep the throttle open and did a WOT run 1-2-3 to 6500+ in each gear at 17 psi and saw a 10-15 deg rise in boost temps with his ETS TMIC. THat tells me the turbo has a little room yet.

[dadasracecar]

And that 75% argument is not valid for this car. Come go for a ride and I'll show you. It's night and day after the reflash.

[Lex]

I'd love to see the comparison - but I am guessing you are not located close to the westcoast of Canada.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex Is that based on the maps or on personal experience and datalogging? If this is the case, was this the reason Mazda holds boost at those levels at redline? In my opinion before action can be taken to improve a situation, we MUST know why it is so in the first place. Working in the automotive controls field, I assure you there is a very good reason Mazda has calibrated the car the way they have. Be it longevity, reliability, or emissions, there is a reason for it. If we are to push past the stock calibration, we have to know the reason it is the way it is in order to address the issue directly and be aware of the possible consequences.

By looking at the map. The efficiency falls off a cliff at roughly that point by my estimation.

There has also been some discussion about the EGT getting too high due to excessive back pressure reducing the life of the turbo (due to shaft deformation at high temp).




If this is truly the correct map, then it just doesn't have much more to give.

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Charles just had his ms6 reflashed to keep the throttle open and did a WOT run 1-2-3 to 6500+ in each gear at 17 psi and saw a 10-15 deg rise in boost temps with his ETS TMIC. THat tells me the turbo has a little room yet.

thats actually encouraging.