New Borg Warner EFR Turbochargers!!!

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan It is a true twin scroll top mount.

Yeah? Nice! I just think the EFRs are going to require a driver side friendly stye manifold to net a decent downpipe construction. They're longer than most turbos in their class.

[MS3inDC]

Ok, what we need is an Arizona based Speed 3 AND 6 to be mules. Just need to approach Full-Race to make a manifold.

I came from the Nissan community, and Full-Race is a good as it gets. They have been making some of the after-markets best twin-scroll tubular manis for years. I remember their first shop car was a 900 hp street-driven civic. IIRC, the company was started by 4 University of Arizona Engineering students. All of their manis are CAD designed, and CNC welded.

We need to approach them about a production run of Mazdaspeed exhaust manis, that would be epic win for our platform.

Can we get some vendor relations going Hal?

FYHN!!!

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by MS3inDC Ok, what we need is an Arizona based Speed 3 AND 6 to be mules. Just need to approach Full-Race to make a manifold. I came from the Nissan community, and Full-Race is a good as it gets. They have been making some of the after-markets best twin-scroll tubular manis for years. I remember their first shop car was a 900 hp street-driven civic. IIRC, the company was started by 4 University of Arizona Engineering students. All of their manis are CAD designed, and CNC welded. We need to approach them about a production run of Mazdaspeed exhaust manis, that would be epic win for our platform. Can we get some vendor relations going Hal? FYHN!!!

HELL YEAH!!! I honestly don't think anyone would run anything else if that went down. Think about it, they have a turbo for every level of power we'd need without all the extra hardware (BPVs, EWG, dumptubes etc)

This would be sick! How do we get this going? An interest thread, poll, to show them we mean business?

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by Alpha This would be sick! How do we get this going? An interest thread, poll, to show them we mean business?

Pm Hal first, go from there...

But in all seriousness, troll their site... see for yourself. Their manis are fap worthy!

...plus if you think about it, they could also make v-band manis for those already running garret turbos that didn't go ATP. I'd bet that their manis would put almost everything else on the market for our platform to shame.

FYHN!!!

[Alpha]

Okay, I PMed Haltech and just sent Full Race an email:

Full-Race,

Hey guys, I’m a Mazdaspeed enthusiast (Alpha) from www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum and everyone’s going crazy about these new BW EFR turbos. They cure the dreaded external wastegate headache that we’ve been having to deal with by means of their killer IWG design. This and they really simplify everything for us, however nobody has stepped up to offer us a nice twin scroll or standard T3 flanged manifold and downpipe to run them.

I figure, why not have the best take a look at our platform? I’m sure most would be looking at the 7064 or 7670. If you need a minimum or would like me to put a poll together for a headcount to ensure market confidence I’d be more than happy to help. : )

I’m also sure we can get or locate a local test car for you to mock up on as well.

Please let me know what you think and I truly hope we can turn this into reality.

Cheers!

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by Alpha Okay, I PMed Haltech and just sent Full Race an email: Full-Race, Hey guys, I’m a Mazdaspeed enthusiast (Alpha) from www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum and everyone’s going crazy about these new BW EFR turbos. They cure the dreaded external wastegate headache that we’ve been having to deal with by means of their killer IWG design. This and they really simplify everything for us, however nobody has stepped up to offer us a nice twin scroll or standard T3 flanged manifold and downpipe to run them. I figure, why not have the best take a look at our platform? I’m sure most would be looking at the 7064 or 7670. If you need a minimum or would like me to put a poll together for a headcount to ensure market confidence I’d be more than happy to help. : ) I’m also sure we can get or locate a local test car for you to mock up on as well. Please let me know what you think and I truly hope we can turn this into reality. Cheers!

Bravo.

Just hope they act on it....

IN before epic win!!


FYHN!!!

[Alpha]

Full Race hit me back and directed me to the owner Geoff for new design ideas so I emailed him today.

Let's see what we can do!

[Tomas]

who is Geoff?

[amoosenamedhank]

Originally Posted by Tomas who is Geoff?

Are you high?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank Are you high?

permanently.
I am also your father - and the Antichrist.

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by Alpha Full Race hit me back and directed me to the owner Geoff for new design ideas so I emailed him today. Let's see what we can do!

I hope you can get some dialogue goin. Please emphasize that drop-in bolt-on simplicity would be ideal. Some of their kits in the past have required fab work, or cutting. For example, the kit for the KA24 powered RP-S13 required the removal of the pop-up head lights (pipe for the fmic needed to go right where the motor for the lights was), so you had to either get the JDM front clip and use those lights, or have a purpose built tracker missing some head lights...

When you really think about it, if their kit hits the market and includes a turbo and mani, that shit is gonna clear $2k easy. So bolt on simplicity is gonna be what moves those fuckers off the shelf. If you spend some coin like that on a turbo kit and still have to do fab/cutting for the install... cheap bastards wouldn't go for it. Ideally, their kit would compete with ATPs.

Looking at the design of the turbos, a dp would also be in order.

Keep us in the loop Alpha. I've got fingers and toes crossed...

[Alpha]

Definitely. I've directed him to this thread and our forum so hopefully he'll chim in. I really think they'd have the ability to corner the BT market with these kits.

[Enki]

Maths!

[cld12pk2go]

The 6758 looks pretty much perfect for anyone aiming for ~380-430whp.

[SSinstaller]

The Borg-Warner site shows some completely different numbers..

BorgWarner MatchBot

[Enki]

Interesting; my spreadsheets are set for calculating against potential engine flow (bore, stroke, VE) and don't take into consideration intercooling, exhaust gas flow, or anything like that.

Matchbot is saying we need an EFR 8374 @ 25 PSI and everything else looks suboptimal even at 20 PSI.

I must not be reading this right....

Edit:
Just figured out why my maths are off; doing the density ratio calculation based off of information in the AirWerks catalog, which doesn't jive with the online calculator.

[Scribbles]

full race is pretty much right around the corner for me, unfortunately I'm pretty damn close to stock

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by SoAgg159 full race is pretty much right around the corner for me, unfortunately I'm pretty damn close to stock

Dude, you should roll up and show some interest! That'd be sick!

[steedspeed]

Nice turbos!

[Cataphract_40]

Subbed because I have been lurking this thread from the start

[SSinstaller]

If I could do it again this is what I'd be running..

BorgWarner MatchBot

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller If I could do it again this is what I'd be running.. BorgWarner MatchBot

Isn't the 105% VE a bit optimistic for 6000/7000 RPMs with our head/cams?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Isn't the 105% VE a bit optimistic for 6000/7000 RPMs with our head/cams?

It's what they had in the calculator. I'm assuming it's a reasonable number if they're using it as the default value... If a well tuned NA motor can hit >110% VE, I don't doubt we could hit 105% at 28psi...

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller It's what they had in the calculator. I'm assuming it's a reasonable number if they're using it as the default value... If a well tuned NA motor can hit >110% VE, I don't doubt we could hit 105% at 28psi...

The VE is independent of boost.

With our intake/head/cams, VE is probably more like in the 80's at 7000 RPMs.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go The VE is independent of boost. With our intake/head/cams, VE is probably more like in the 80's at 7000 RPMs.

I'm not really sure of the turbo's actual effect on the engine VE, obviously it forces the engine to move more air, but I have no idea if it also results in an increase of the base VE as well..

I would assume that just having positive pressure in the IM would increase cylinder filling over pulling against a vacuum..

I'll defer to the judgment of the engineers at Borg-Warner who made their calculator.

[TRex]

Originally Posted by steedspeed Nice turbos!

you know...has anyone asked steed? i was already looking at their top mount manifold.....they just dont seem to offer a twin scroll option...honestly if i go this route i will go with a steed speed t3 top mount....

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I'm not really sure of the turbo's actual effect on the engine VE, obviously it forces the engine to move more air, but I have no idea if it also results in an increase of the base VE as well.. I would assume that just having positive pressure in the IM would increase cylinder filling over pulling against a vacuum..

yay wiki

Originally Posted by wikipedia More specifically, volumetric efficiency is a ratio (or percentage) of what quantity of fuel and air actually enters the cylinder during induction to the actual capacity of the cylinder under static conditions. Therefore, those engines that can create higher induction manifold pressures - above ambient - will have efficiencies greater than 100%.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I'm not really sure of the turbo's actual effect on the engine VE, obviously it forces the engine to move more air, but I have no idea if it also results in an increase of the base VE as well.. I would assume that just having positive pressure in the IM would increase cylinder filling over pulling against a vacuum.. I'll defer to the judgment of the engineers at Borg-Warner who made their calculator.

VE is just what it says, Volumetric Efficiency.

Boost increases the density of what is sucked into the combustion chamber for a given VE.

While I could always be incorrect, I have never specifically read anything about boost actually altering the base VE.

[Alpha]

Originally Posted by TRex you know...has anyone asked steed? i was already looking at their top mount manifold.....they just dont seem to offer a twin scroll option...honestly if i go this route i will go with a steed speed t3 top mount....

From what I read, Leen DOES offer a twin scroll top mount manifold. I just think these EFRs would have to be mounted more toward the driver's side to get a good downpipe angle.

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by TRex you know...has anyone asked steed? i was already looking at their top mount manifold.....they just dont seem to offer a twin scroll option...honestly if i go this route i will go with a steed speed t3 top mount....

I for one have seen Full-Race's quality first hand and it's to notch. Plus they guarantee against cracking, which tubular manis are notorious for... I will have to check out steed's manis, but because I'm biased I'd probably shy away from SS.

You can easily put F-R on par with AMS (Illinois), quality wise

edit... incendiary remarks removed


FYHN!!!

[TRex]

does full race ONLY do tubular though? or do they also offer cast?

[TRex]

why no SS?

[MS3inDC]

Originally Posted by TRex why no SS?

From my experience, tubulars crack. I have come across a bunch of manis that look the part, but end up failing. I have yet to cross a failed F-R mani... But thats me, and my experience.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go VE is just what it says, Volumetric Efficiency. Boost increases the density of what is sucked into the combustion chamber for a given VE. While I could always be incorrect, I have never specifically read anything about boost actually altering the base VE.

I've found plenty of anecdotal info just searching on google showing the VE on turbocharged engines hitting as hit as 130%...

Air is being forced into the cylinders by the turbo, not simply pulled in by the pumping action of the rotating assembly..

Obviously everything on the internet is not correct, but it does seem logical to me that the positive pressure in the IM would have to reduce pumping losses over a NA motor..

[SSinstaller]

I'm cleaning this shit up.. If you guys keep up the pissing contest I'll ban you both from the thread.

[Alpha]

Still awaiting a response from the owner of Full Race, Geoff. If I don't hear back by Friday, I'm gonna give him a call.

[Enki]

As far as volumetric efficiency is concerned, both ways of describing it are technically correct.

1. The base VE of the engine is 90%, with 15 PSI of boost. This puts your airflow at roughly 200% of normal.
2. The boosted VE of the engine is 180% (90% with 15 PSI).

I'd think both of these would come back with the same flow numbers.

[TRex]

Originally Posted by MS3inDC From my experience, tubulars crack. I have come across a bunch of manis that look the part, but end up failing. I have yet to cross a failed F-R mani... But thats me, and my experience.

but steed's arent tubular...they are cast...and damn sexy i might add

Steed Speed - Mazdaspeed 3/6 top mount turbo manifold

hey SS what are the typical flow constraints on this car? lets assume aftermarket intake mani, exhaust mani, full 3" exhaust and big intake?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by TRex but steed's arent tubular...they are cast...and damn sexy i might add Steed Speed - Mazdaspeed 3/6 top mount turbo manifold hey SS what are the typical flow constraints on this car? lets assume aftermarket intake mani, exhaust mani, full 3" exhaust and big intake?

Once you get to that point the biggest limit will be the cams and the head itself...

[TRex]

^but it is safe to assume you wouldnt reach it with anything currently out there (pushing higher than 400 hp anyway)