Quest to cure oil/smoke once and for all

[bnoon]

OK, nearly a year after installing my catless DP/RP, I still smoke. Let's get serious... It's time to end it.

After installing those parts and seeing the smoke, some searches led me to believe a simple oil change was in order. Swapped to thicker 5-40 Royal Purple, no-go. $500 in oil changes later, trying different oils, different viscosities (0-40, 10-40, even 20-50), etc, I'm back to where I started with Royla Purple 5-40. It's not that it burns less, or protects better or anything like that... it's simply that it SMELLS better when it burns out the tail pipe.

Next, I tried a catch can. One of the cheapies from Ebay, but with added separation media (thick steel wool). It worked to get some impurities from the oil. OUA states a drop in fuel of .3% going from 1.5% to 1.2%. Recently I added a second PCV and a Saikou catch can. No change in oil burning, but the quality of the oil is even visually MUCH improved. Smoke/burning remains...

A few months back, PTP came out with their windage tray and stated that their test car was no longer getting output in their catch can and their thought was that it may be a fix for the burning oil issue. I tried it, with a fresh change of RP 5-40. Still burning. It does seem to keep the oil from "whipping" itself to death against the crank though as oil pressure as measured at the spin on adapter has stabilized at higher RPM's. Spin-on adapter was removed/returned though as it leaked and I have not put on another one and as good as I've gotten at changing the oil, a cartridge filter is just fine now.

So another idea came up recently that the crankcase is over-pressurizing the PCV system and/or the oil return line from the turbo. Which, in some cases it may be. I don't believe that to be the case with my car. I have a boost/vac gauge that I will hook up this week to monitor PCV system pressures at the valve cover and again at the crankcase where the stock PCV valve is. I've also got an oil return tube that I've hacked the ends off of and will run a temporary clear tube to watch the oil return at idle from under the car. If the pressure is as high as it would have to be to block the high pressure oil feed I suspect we have from the head in these cars (I've seen Zetec/Duratec 2.3's that run 60-80 psi in the head oil passages, which is where we get oil feed to the turbo), that tube should blow right off and I'll have oil everywhere. My suspect, though, is that the oil will return just fine and I'll swap the tube back out to the stock return tube right then and there.

Another theory along the same lines of the PCV system malfunction is that it's sucking oil into the intake. Not enough to smoke like that... Catch can keeps most of it out, and I plan to put in an EGR block, but for now only the normal black soot from the EGR exists, no liquid oil is there at all. Some VERY minor oil stains, but again nothing on the scale it would have to be to smoke like a 30-40 year old Chevy with bad valve stem seals... Especially since the plugs are clean and medium tan just as they should be. Never showed any signs of actually "burning" oil in the cylinders at all. Next...

Soooooooooo, where does that leave me? Right where I think I should have gone to begin with... the oil pressure going INTO the turbo, I think, is to high. I've made some inquiries to several turbo rebuild companies and I have a plan set in place to first: monitor the pressure at the turbo oil feed. Then... can anyone guess??? Right! ADD AN OIL RESTRICTOR!!! Not sure what size I will start with yet as I need to calculate the pressure drop once I know the current stock oil pressure at the feed location and the required flow of the stock turbo center section. Most likely start at .065" or so (total guess). Some ball bearing turbos require only 30 psi (in some vehicles that means a .035 restrictor!!!), anything over that and they burn oil out the exhaust like we do, and also cook their bearings. With the stock and reworked K04's being a "wet" bearing, our working pressure will be higher, so we would need a larger hole... but still, knowing that other turbos can over-pressurize their oil seals/bearings, this is a road I should have went down looooooooooong ago.

Make comments... ooooooh and ahhhhhhh... tell me I'm an idiot if you like, but this is where I'm headed.

Paypal info:
brad@bnmotorsports.com $35 shipped USPS or $45 shipped UPS.

[glocK23]

I applaud you for your determination.

[all4bspinnin]

ive seen cases where the pcv system doesnt work well enough, and the oil actually is forced back up the oil drain tube and seeps into the hotside. That can be cured by redoing the pcv system...

here's the question, do these cars still smoke when the turbo is upgraded?

[glocK23]

Originally Posted by all4bspinnin here's the question, do these cars still smoke when the turbo is upgraded?

I think the reworked K04's still have a potential to smoke, but the atp turbos ect..ect.. don't smoke.

[rodrigo]

well, u could always just get an AP(great tool for tuning) get atr with it and raise your idle rpm to 900 like i did and smoke b gone!!!!!!

[HighSun_Murder]

Originally Posted by lenny127 well, u could always just get an AP(great tool for tuning) get atr with it and raise your idle rpm to 900 like i did and smoke b gone!!!!!!

good intel guys!

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by lenny127 well, u could always just get an AP(great tool for tuning) get atr with it and raise your idle rpm to 900 like i did and smoke b gone!!!!!!

Sorry, forgot to mention, I'm an electrical/data network engineer and wired up my own throttle control potentiometer circuit and raised the RPM to several different settings (800, 900, 1000). Didn't work. AP will come, but not until the Medeival manifold and SST are ready to go on, once this oil/smoke issue is done.

My theory there is: Raising the idle RPM brings up the pressure in the exhaust side enough that the high oil pressure in the center section can't overcome it anymore. Depending on how much oil pressure vs exhaust system backpressure your car has, determines if this method works for you. Didn't for me.

[bova]

well give the restrictor a try...also sometimes an overfill of oil causes smoking as i've proved that before with mine. i had started with 5.5qts and didn't have smoking, put about .2qts more in and boom started to smoke some.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by bova80 well give the restrictor a try...also sometimes an overfill of oil causes smoking as i've proved that before with mine. i had started with 5.5qts and didn't have smoking, put about .2qts more in and boom started to smoke some.

I used 5.5, actually sometimes a little less to make sure I wasn't overfilling, but enough to keep me a touch over half way between the add and full lines on the dipstick. Now that I have the BSD, it's a touch less than 6.5 quarts.

[Lex]

Is your exhaust completely catless? Unfortunately due to the pressure differential across the centre section, without a cat, the differential becomes too great for the design of the seals in the MS3 turbo.

Once you put a cat in there, your oil burning will stop.

The pill is an interesting idea, however you have NO idea what the oiling requirements of the turbo are and might end up roasting the bearing further.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Lex Is your exhaust completely catless? Unfortunately due to the pressure differential across the centre section, without a cat, the differential becomes too great for the design of the seals in the MS3 turbo. Once you put a cat in there, your oil burning will stop. The pill is an interesting idea, however you have NO idea what the oiling requirements of the turbo are and might end up roasting the bearing further.

Yes, I'm catless.

... and that's why I put in requests to turbo manufacturers and rebuilders to find out what the oil requirements are for the K04 center sections.

In the meantime, I will be hooking up a pressure sensor to find out what the stock pressure is and starting from there. From there, I can gradually go smaller until the smoking stops to avoid cooking the bearing/bushing.

By the way, there are several people WITH CATS that do still smoke.

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by Lex Is your exhaust completely catless? Unfortunately due to the pressure differential across the centre section, without a cat, the differential becomes too great for the design of the seals in the MS3 turbo. Once you put a cat in there, your oil burning will stop. The pill is an interesting idea, however you have NO idea what the oiling requirements of the turbo are and might end up roasting the bearing further.

I really doubt that theory. Considering the pressures involved with a turbo I just can't see how removing a cat is going to push it over the edge.

[bnoon]

Just got this from G-POP Shop:

Hello Brad, Thank you for your interest. We do not sell a direct install restrictor, but can help you with restricting the oil. The turbo should have a maximum of 55 psi oil pressure going into it, the minimum would be around 10psi. You can restrict the line down to 0.060". When we build these types of custom restrictors we make them in such a way as to where we can change the restrictor size. We normally start restricting the ID of the line by 25% and check to see if that is enough, if not then we slowly work our way down to the smallest of 0.060". we are not sure that an 1/8" NPT fitting will fit in your system, but if it will work that would be great. Let us know if you have any other questions or if you need anything else. Thank you, -- Jim & Gerry, G-Pop Shop Specializing in rebuilt and new turbos, turbo upgrades, turbo rebuild kits, and turbo parts Home (479)-751-7966

I'm thinking I may start with a few .065" restrictors and drill a few out slightly larger to start with, then work my way down if needed. Unless I can find some larger than .065" in 1/8" NPT, which is the largest I've found so far.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by kingpin748 I really doubt that theory. Considering the pressures involved with a turbo I just can't see how removing a cat is going to push it over the edge.

Seen this proven with my own eyes. As the bearing wears the problem becomes worse.

[RUMBLEFISH]

Weli have just a test pipe and it smokes. Its strange that sometimes i dont smoke at all then all the sudden pow I look like I'm hired by the town to kill sketers. As soon as i take off it stops. Its a very strange thing and I hope you find a cure. I can't imagine how bad it would be if I was completely catless.

Good luck with your testing and hope it works.

[Eazy]

I can't explain it, but I don't smoke at all when I have my cutout open.... if I drive with it closed, I smoke like normal. And it's not that i'm not seeing it any more because the cutout is under the car, it's flat out stopped smoking with the cutout open.

[all4bspinnin]

Originally Posted by glocK23 I think the reworked K04's still have a potential to smoke, but the atp turbos ect..ect.. don't smoke.

so its only the stock turbo that smokes?

...thats a good reason to upgrade =D

[bnoon]

Stopped by the hardware store over lunch and got the 1/8" NPT adapters I'll need. Also stopped at the auto parts store and got a 2" oil pressure gauge to mount up. Now I've just got to wait until the oil restrictors get here.

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by Lex Seen this proven with my own eyes. As the bearing wears the problem becomes worse.

I'm not saying the seals aren't leaking. I just don't think removing the cats is an issue. I think removing the cats shows an problem that is already there.

[Blackspeed]

[RUMBLEFISH]

Originally Posted by Eazy I can't explain it, but I don't smoke at all when I have my cutout open.... if I drive with it closed, I smoke like normal. And it's not that i'm not seeing it any more because the cutout is under the car, it's flat out stopped smoking with the cutout open.

Imagine if the fix would be to install a cut out. Have it open automaticly when revs below 950 then close back up. I think we would get strange looks at a light but then all the smoke makes em look anyway.

[bnoon]

From what Eazy says above, I'm not sure what to think about it... if it was the lower exhaust restriction, it should smoke even more like a mofo with a cutout open. If it was an oil pressure thing it should smoke open or closed. If it were a PCV issue it should smoke open or closed... weird.

One thing we do know though, the 08+ Cobalt SS's running the similar trimmed K04 turbos don't seem to be having this problem when they install catless DP.

[Eazy]

You would need to have the cutout open all the time. I've driven with it open, then closed it to go through a drive-thru or something and had it start smoking within a minute of closing. I've tested this on my way to work multiple times with the same result...

drive with it open, close it, idle closed, smoke.
drive with it closed, idle closed, smoke
drive with it open, idle open, no smoke (ever)


^^^I have no idea why it does this

[bova]

but did you try drive with it closed idle open?

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by bova80 but did you try drive with it closed idle open?

I have, and sometimes it smokes, sometimes it doesn't. If it does smoke, it stops shortly aafter closing the cutout.

[wakeboarddude]

Interesting to find out what happens! I just installed my CPe cattless dp and it was smoking baddd! it might be cause it a new pipe or something but i trove it for about 80 miles and did some pulls and still was smoking bad! Today i raised up the idles to 800 and seemed to fix it a lot better but on ocations i still smoke. I have an 09 ms3 with 10k on it so i have the newer turbos and they still smoke. Im still a little iffy to say its the turbo but almost everything points to it!

[bnoon]

Well... the damn thing isn't 1/8" or 1/4" NPT, it's in the middle of those two sizes. Would anyone know what thread would be between those two sizes??? The water passage seems to be 1/4" NPT, but the oil feed side is between sizes... damn.

[SRTCE142]

3/16" is the middle between 1/8" and 1/4"

[bnoon]

Turns out, M12x1.5 is the thread size. It's a banjo bolt, straight threads, not NPT. I'll be making my own restrictors in my shop and selling them if they work.

[Eazy]

Well, for the first time ever, my car smoked with the cutout open. Last night around 11pm I was craving Wendy's so I headed out. Being so late, I didn't wait around for my car to warm up (Idleing at 2000rpm with the cutout open is LOUD) because my neighbors are assholes. Drove down hill @~40mph for 1 mile. As soon as I was idling in the drivethru it started smoking. Engine was almost fully warm. The smoke only lasted 30 seconds max, and was not nearly as bad as when the cutout is closed.

[bnoon]

UPDATE!!! Oil restrictors work!!! I made a quick video after 20 minutes of idle and there was barely any smoke at all compared to full smoke screen before. This is with the FIRST STEP of restrictor at .09375 size and several steps to try to get down to the recommended minimum of .06!!! THIS IS AWESOME NEWS!!!
No "before" since it was just a HUGE cloud of smoke to look at. Hopefully the next step eliminates it totally.

The "after" video can be seen here:

YouTube - 100 0361

YouTube - 100 0361

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Awesome!

[Jarods7920]

awesome...when will you be selling them?

[Addikted To Boost]

sweet my 09 has been smoking more and more recently so hopefully this solves the problem and doesnt cook your turbo in the process. Keep us updated man and good job on this.

[Lex]

Good work. Are you going to be measuring oil pressure at the turbo with the different restrictor sizes?

[jhershorin]

So will you do me a favor.

Can you put up a list of everything needed to buy. I am pulling stuff apart next weekend.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Lex Good work. Are you going to be measuring oil pressure at the turbo with the different restrictor sizes?

That was the original plan, however with the style of oil feed we have... it's just not possible unless you invest a LOT more money on AN fittings and adapters. The stock K04 has a working pressure of 15-55 PSI. Even at the smallest hole, our working pressure should still be well into the 30-40 range. We wouldn't even drop below minimum if the head passage oil pressure were to be lower than the main pressure (40-55 PSI depending on the day from my observations). The head passage pressure is higher than that even.

Originally Posted by jhershorin So will you do me a favor. Can you put up a list of everything needed to buy. I am pulling stuff apart next weekend.

Once I'm done testing, you will buy one bolt, modified by me to be a resitrctor hole banjo bolt. If you want to buy your own bolt and make one, it's easy enough if you have the right tools (drill press, lathe, vice, saws). Bolt size/pitch and recommended restrictor sizes are here in this thread.

I can tell you I have to have one more revision though besides the hole size (I need to change the bolt's shoulder length) to get it just right. Few more days of digging through every parts and hardware store in town and/or online should do the trick...


[b][color=red]NOTE: VIDEO mentions the WRONG SIZE! It's .09375, not .9375 like the video states. This it = to a 3/32" drill bit.

[Lex]

Did you notice a change in the engine oil pressure after the restrictor install?

[Hectik1]

Let me know when you start selling these. I have noticed my car smoking a little more on startup with 1 stock cat!

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by Lex Did you notice a change in the engine oil pressure after the restrictor install?

I don't have a way to monitor oil pressure at the filter any more since I got rid of my spin on filter conversion. The engine oil pressure is regulated by the oil pump spring though, so this will not alter oil pressure at say, the bearings or anything like that.

Originally Posted by SilverSpeed3 Let me know when you start selling these. I have noticed my car smoking a little more on startup with 1 stock cat!

As of now Hector. You'll have a PM in a couple of minutes.




As an FYI to all, I've tried .08 last night and this morning and still had a little too much smoke. I'm now at .07 and trying that out for a day or so to make sure I don't have residual oil in the exhaust that's still smoking, but it is still in the right direction for DAMN sure. .09 cut my smoke issue down to an annoyance, .08 was not much difference than .09, but .07 is where I feel comfortable now.

Also, I've got proof, while the car is idling and smoking, it is NOT the PCV system pressurizing the crankcase causing it. VERY NEAR to no smoke with the .08 restrictor, then I put the stock bolt back in and instantly smoked out all of the neighborhood bugs. Pulled the oil dipstick, no pressure AT ALL, pulled the oil fill cap, also no pressure. That's not to say that we don't have PCV issues (we do), but it's not what's causing the oil smoke show at idle.

...and for the first time since my car was new... it's got a CHROME exhaust tip for longer than a day!!! My wife asked me if I put on a new exhaust without asking her!!