SilverDemon's Intake Manifold

[superskaterxes]

omg i would totally be interested in this with ALOT of assembly required. like if u sent me every part unwelded i could just weld it myself haha

[ATE BALLER]

Make sure to build a jig to weld it on. Bolt that sucker down or it'll look like a medieval mani, lol.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Make sure to build a jig to weld it on. Bolt that sucker down or it'll look like a medieval mani, lol.

hey hey now nukka...my medievil mani looks just fine son!

[SilverDemon]

Anyone ever measure the volume of the factory intake manifold?

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx hey hey now nukka...my medievil mani looks just fine son!

How much did they have to deck it?

just kidding, lol

but really, how much?

[MATT DAMOND]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon MATT, If you really want the flange, I have it saved on the CnC machine. I can check the price on the material and machine time and get back to you. PM me if you are interested. I did experiment with round runners, it does not work well at all since our ports are different shapes and sizes.

I would take you up on that offer, but I want to try a few things first.

The runner design I have in mind is not completely round, more or less of an oval shape, flat on the top and bottom where it meed the flange. It's going to be tricky to make the runners I have in mind, but I kinda have some resources to do so. I really like the CnC runners you have, I just want them to curve slightly downwards to accommodate a TMIC. I might design them tiny enough to where I can get them machined.

I also want to simulate some flow tests of drafting on the flange, to see what I can do about opening up the smaller port. Like this:



I MIGHT have access to a 3D printer, so for test fitting reasons, and to get an overall idea on how to construct the runners and plenum, make jigs, I could you that. Oh and a full scale 3D printed I/M would look sweet.

[SilverDemon]

That looks nice!! You are going to contour the head plate for the transition from the oval runners to the square ports?

Here are my very quick first attempts of the forming the oval runners.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER How much did they have to deck it? just kidding, lol but really, how much?

can't say how much...it's a family secret.

lol, but really I got it already machined from another member who sold his speed for the likes of a chrysler 300...??? lol

[tbot]

Dammit!!! I hate reading threads like this that started a while back (aka before I joined) and reading thru them to come to the end and it's not finished lol. I have to say that's the shit!!! I think it looks bad ass, great work and design. I'm really interested in how this turns out!


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[SilverDemon]

I do not get the time to invest in this project like I need to. That is why it has taken me over 2 months to get this far. My hang up right now is the plenum, size, shape, and placement in the space provided all pose a problem. I need to sit down and accurately measure the volume of the factory manifold. I have ordered some material, and I am at a standstill until I receive the parts.

[djuosnteisn]

It would be cool if you made the plenum and runners modular, so you could experiment with different plenum designs. And then when you were happy with one, you could final weld everything together.

[SilverDemon]

CAD..........

C.ardboard
A.ided
D.esign


Cardboard is my new best friend, old school design and fabrication, no 3D printers. LOL!!!

[SpeedSixxx]

see, if I thank near everything DJ thanx more ppl will see my name next to his and maybe i'll get me some un deserved respect!

[tbot]

Lol, nice. I wasn't trying to bash on the progress, don't get me wrong. I think what you've done so far is amazing, more than anything I could ever do, so all the props to u. I hope everything else gets figured out relatively soon and u can complete this thing!!!


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[ATE BALLER]

Any chance you could sort of mandrel-bend the oval runners a smidge? So the plenum sits a bit higher? Like to eliminate a possibility of puddling when used with an auxillary fueling system?

[SilverDemon]

Good point, I have never tried to mandrel bend an oval tube before. I am sure it can be done, I just have a limited experience with bending that type of tubing.

[Mazdanspeed3]

how much for the IM dimensions? lol seriously though.

[mkriebs]

Silver... put a patent on this bad boy so no ones goes copyin it!

[SpeedSixxx]

anyone have a picture of CP-E's new IM?

[SilverDemon]

LOL!! I thought some one else had already posted a teaser pic of CP-E's mani, I am sure it won't be as good as mine........Just kidding!!! I joke, I joke....

[mkriebs]

Yeah, CP-e released a pic of the 3D printer.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by MATT DAMOND The runner design I have in mind is not completely round, more or less of an oval shape, flat on the top and bottom where it meed the flange. It's going to be tricky to make the runners I have in mind, but I kinda have some resources to do so. I really like the CnC runners you have, I just want them to curve slightly downwards to accommodate a TMIC. I might design them tiny enough to where I can get them machined. I also want to simulate some flow tests of drafting on the flange, to see what I can do about opening up the smaller port. Like this: I MIGHT have access to a 3D printer, so for test fitting reasons, and to get an overall idea on how to construct the runners and plenum, make jigs, I could you that. Oh and a full scale 3D printed I/M would look sweet.

On my head, the smaller port is squared and it works fine.

subscribing to this thread

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I do not get the time to invest in this project like I need to. That is why it has taken me over 2 months to get this far. My hang up right now is the plenum, size, shape, and placement in the space provided all pose a problem. I need to sit down and accurately measure the volume of the factory manifold. I have ordered some material, and I am at a standstill until I receive the parts.

fill it with water and empty it out and measure?

[cpolly69]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes fill it with water and empty it out and measure?

Knowing that the old man will answer that when he gets out of bed tomorrow, he has been doing that and various other math to calculate things....

[SilverDemon]

Yes, filling it with water is the way to measure the volume, but I have to make block off plates for the runners and MAP sensor, then find a beaker big enough. The only one I have is 100ml.

Hey!! Whats with the old man comment? LOL!!!

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Yes, filling it with water is the way to measure the volume, but I have to make block off plates for the runners and MAP sensor, then find a beaker big enough. The only one I have is 100ml. Hey!! Whats with the old man comment? LOL!!!

With a 5-gallon bucket, a water hose, and a bathroom scale you can probably get within 5% if you just fill the IM up 10 times and empty into the bucket and then weight the bucket.

Just back out the empty bucket weight to get the water weight (in lbs).

Convert that to Kg by dividing by 2.2046 (lbs/kg) and then divide by 10 to get the volume (in Liters) for the IM (I skipped the unit conversion from Kg to L since the density of water is 1.0 Kg/L).

Piece of cake.

[steedspeed]

If you want a drawing made up to transition from the stock head port shape to a round shape just let me know and I can draw it very easily and send you the NC program for the CNC.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by steedspeed If you want a drawing made up to transition from the stock head port shape to a round shape just let me know and I can draw it very easily and send you the NC program for the CNC.

Thanks for the offer!! My theory is to keep transitions to a minimum, and to let everything work with the stock ports. In the future I will merge the ports in the head and take the divider out of the head plate.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Thanks for the offer!! My theory is to keep transitions to a minimum, and to let everything work with the stock ports. In the future I will merge the ports in the head and take the divider out of the head plate.

I frogot....

I know on the IM there are two ports for each of the 4 runners but where it connects to the head are there also two ports per runner or is it one?

if you were to merge the IM runner ports from two to one would there be any ill effect.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx I frogot.... I know on the IM there are two ports for each of the 4 runners but where it connects to the head are there also two ports per runner or is it one? if you were to merge the IM runner ports from two to one would there be any ill effect.

Yes there are two ports in the head, I left the divider in the head plate so I could put a knife edge on it to help divide the incoming air.

As far as an ill effect, maybe some off boost conditions because of the velocity of the air will be slower with the larger port.

honestly bro put velocity stack inside. I would want to purchase this IM. It looks good

[SpeedSixxx]

i wanna see the price difference between ur IM and CP-E's new IM... plus the dyno #'s on the same exact car with stock, demons and cpe's

[SilverDemon]

A great deal of calculating and research has gone into every aspect of this design. Velocity stacks of greater than a taper of 2.5* actually will hinder performance. If the air speed exceeds mach 1.5, the air will become turbulent. Runner length between 200 and 500mm is optimal for a boosted application, and being that I am trying to fit all this into the space available, compromises had to made. I can only attain a runner length of about 230mm. Runner surface area also will have a direct effect on numbers. Plenum volume for this size of a motor dictates a total volume of 210 ci, I can only fit a total volume about 190ci. I can almost bet, even without measurement, the factory one is no where near that size. On the other side, a larger volume plenum, say 400ci, will move the HP and Torque curve out of the rpm range of the engine. This is only a part of the considerations that have to be made, and I am sure that many more will come up before I get the final version done.......I am still working on the plenum, and hope to have something done in the next few weeks or so......stay tuned!!

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon A great deal of calculating and research has gone into every aspect of this design. Velocity stacks of greater than a taper of 2.5* actually will hinder performance. If the air speed exceeds mach 1.5, the air will become turbulent. Runner length between 200 and 500mm is optimal for a boosted application, and being that I am trying to fit all this into the space available, compromises had to made. I can only attain a runner length of about 230mm. Runner surface area also will have a direct effect on numbers. Plenum volume for this size of a motor dictates a total volume of 210 ci, I can only fit a total volume about 190ci. I can almost bet, even without measurement, the factory one is no where near that size. On the other side, a larger volume plenum, say 400ci, will move the HP and Torque curve out of the rpm range of the engine. This is only a part of the considerations that have to be made, and I am sure that many more will come up before I get the final version done.......I am still working on the plenum, and hope to have something done in the next few weeks or so......stay tuned!!

i love you

[SilverDemon]

Oh my!!

LOL!!

[06Speed6]

From the research that I have done into automotive air flow designs, the optimal maximum velocity for IM runners is about mach .80 not mach 1.5. I am fairly certain that it is nearly impossible to hit mach 1.5 in a engine.

I think Phantom3 was running mach ~1.3 on his original design also, by the final design it was much lower so I know its possible to reduce the port velocity further.

[SilverDemon]

Thank you for pointing that out!! My mistake, that's what I get for trying to remember off the top of my head. I went back and looked through my research and saw where it had said that the maximum velocity through the throat of a nozzle is a velocity equal to the speed of sound regardless of the amount of pressure applied.

Although, I could not find where there has been any discussion on the optimal velocity being at .8 Most of the material that I have found states that typically engines are designed with the inlet Mach index does not exceed .5

Do you have some material you could link to me that talks a little more in detail on optimal air speed? I could use all the info I can get my hands on.

[the_caruch]

subbed

this is badass! i always love to see people fabbing up their own stuff.

KEEP GOING!! GO GO GO GO GO GO GO GO

[cudaman]

Here's a performance oriented firm that supposedly did a flow bench on the stock intake manifold for the MS3, and has provided their "ported" version with a corresponding list of their flowbench. Just for reference. I believe SilverDemon was looking for flow-bench info. I don't represent that what they have here is correct. But, they do cater to the "sporting crowd" based on their platforms to the left that they supply parts/services for....

MAPerformance Rev3 Intake Manifold (Mazdaspeed3) - Modern Automotive Performance

We always test our manifolds before and after porting to ensure we are focused in the right areas. As it turns out, this manifold yielded some of the most impressive gains out of any of the manifolds we have done. The flow results show an improvement of 103CFM flow capacity, and an overall imbalance improvement from over 25% variance down to only 5.8%! See the flow chart for the data.
Manifold

Runner 1

Runner 2

Runner 3

Runner 4

% of Imbalance

Total CFM
Stock

218

258

273

227

25.23%

976
MAP Modified

258

273

258

251

5.81

1073
Percent Increase

18.35%

5.81%

-6.49%

10.57%

333.94%

Avg. Net Increase
7.31%