Water cooling Tial MVS 38mm

[Nitr0EngiE]

So my 38MM Tial MVS shit the bed and was causing overboosting issues and i tried upgrading vacuum line from 3/16 silicone hose to -4(4/16) SS braided line to find the same exact issue.

My spring rate should yield 24~25 PSI i was seeing 31. the longer i stayed in boost it would just keep creeping up starting at 26 then 27 .... 29... 30 you get the picture. I have held as low as 8 psi of boost on the same turbo and 8psi spring so I know the wastegate is capable of handling the output as the higher the boost the less the gate has to work(open less) to regulate boost. It is possible the diaphram or there is another rubber ring that seals the valve that could have gone bad and i do not road race or anything if anything i drag a bit on the street but nothing that should have caused failure.

So this lead me to contacting Tial in which they are sending me what sounds like a brand new unit with all the springs for free(220 Credit card hold + 12 in S&H charge)

Which leads me to this scenario where I wish to now hoook up the water cooling to the gate I had ignored previously because my original MVS took way more abuse and was the older model and never had issues without water. but i clearly see the benefit to running the water so the tial mvs can literally likely outlive my car/engine.

With that said I have spent well over 14 hours looking for the appropriate fittings to hook this unit up to the TB coolant lines I currently have bypassed. I just want to share how I approached this task.

the MVS comes with these M8x1.0 -> 4AN fittings however by the time you install those and then install a 90 -4an Fitted hose on it, it will stick out like 3 inches and I dont know about you guys but I dont have 3" of clearance from my mani and firewall ... So i insued the literally almost impossible task of finding a M8x1.0 to 1/4" or bigger barb fitting(almost dont exist)

Banjo fittings will allow fuck ass tons more clearance and all around look much smalleer and cleaner. After literally 2 days researching this I was going to buy the M8x1.0 Banjo bolt Seperate(9$ each ebay need 2), along with a Turbo oil feed kit that includes M8x1.25 bolt(does not fit) and comes with 8MM banjo to -4an (does fit but dont need that bolt) and then buy these Fragola -4an to 1/4" hose barbs. TOTAL COST Just for this stupid shit would be 47$ from Ebay and I would have extra banjo bolts and my ass would hurt where my wallet sits.

original Plan -> 47$
200104 Fragola 4AN Blue Push Lock Straight Race Hose Ends | eBay
8mm 1 0 Banjo Bolt x 20mm Long Zinc plt Fluid Bolt Adapter Fitting | eBay
M8 x 1 5 4AN Oil Feed Banjo Bolt Fitting Kit 8mm x 1 5 | eBay

Well just before I almost gave in and paid the 47$ just for those fittings. I found a supplier in the UK that offers 8mm banjo -> 6mm Barb(.23" clost to 1/4") all in one go even with international shipping I just got two sets for 19$

https://www.tyagiracing.com/products...t-for-6mm-Hose

I also found these on ebay but was less expensive to get from the manf website.

which I can connect to this nice 1/4" Hose, I am going to order 9 feet @ 2.85ea

VMS 1 4" Silicone Heater Hose for Radiator Coolant 350°F Sold by Foot Red | eBay

and then finally adapt to coolant lines from TB with these reducers(these fuckers aint cheap for what they are) 13.84$ for two ...

Brass Barb 3 8" Hose ID to 1 4" Hose ID Reducer Fitting Water Fuel Boat Splicer | eBay

This is how I plan on hooking up my new MVS when it gets here and I took ALOT of time to research these fittings and I hope this helps someone else because my total cost was going to be 87.xx Shipped. I was able to reduce this to 58$

I finally feel better about my time spent looking this up, but it has become apparent no body thinks anyone in america needs 8mm banjo fittings because take a look around and you will be very hard pressed to find any.


END RESULT SHOPPING LIST:

(2 kits) https://www.tyagiracing.com/products...t-for-6mm-Hose
(9 feet) VMS 1 4" Silicone Heater Hose for Radiator Coolant 350°F Sold by Foot Red | eBay
(2 pcs) Brass Barb 3 8" Hose ID to 1 4" Hose ID Reducer Fitting Water Fuel Boat Splicer | eBay

of course if your gate has alot of clearance you could probably use the supplied fittings and simply get -4an Lines which are 1/4" and will fit the same hose barb reducer

or get the fragola -4an to 1/4" barb i listed above and hook up regular lines from there, but either way here is two days of my time hand fed to everyone enjoy !

UPDATE 4-3-15

Everything has been perfect with this mod since I first posted about it, here are some pics of how it sits currently and a few engine bay shots and a first peak at me very elaborate PCV system I developed which should help save me allot of engine oil by using a BMW engine oil separator that has a drain on bottom going back to crank case.

[Nitr0EngiE]

For your pleasure here are the scary logs I viewed when concluding my gate is failing

FYI: this is no kind of boost controller either manual or EBCS just str8 spring pressure. and in a cell or two you will see the boost pressure drop randomly from like 20+ to 9 and then right back to 20+ as if the gate just shot open for a sec and closed back down.

[rodrigo]

cliffnotes? did u blow up? run over someone? wife left u?

[Nitr0EngiE]

what no I just could not figure out why i was getting fuel/throttle cut and it led me to my logs which I am seeing bad KR and well over boost and my overboost fuel cuts have been kicking in ... found the issue is 31PSI on pump gas ...

[Chimmike]

unless the EWG is hidden in the runners of the mani, water cooling it isn't necessary. very little water flows through it anyways.

btw, did you swap out for a smaller spring/try cleaning the valve or anything?

[Nitr0EngiE]

no I should not have to do that to make it work, if you check the logs you will see the gate is clearly not working. its not holding a constant pressure at all and fluctuates greatly

and adding water cooling will make the gate last forever pretty much. its gonna cost me in fittings hose and labor but in the end the piece of mind is worth it, the same reason i refuse to plumb with the fake plastic hose fittings/barbs I will only use Brass hose couplers or steel

i can buy much cheaper hose for coolant local but I want something better for this application

[Chimmike]

in your post about the logs you're saying it looks like the gate closed then opened suddenly.


so............take the gate off and clean it like I suggested, change the spring out, and check all the vac source lines.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Mike I am past the poin of diagnosis and already have a gate replacement on the way for free. I had already indicated this in the OP. this is not a diagnostic thread, its simply a thread on how I will run water cooling to my new gate to that I may keep this new gate from failing

[kahunab14]

OP I feel your pain - good job on the research. I think you beat me in your efficient choices. I am water cooling a kit I am working on as a contract engineer. We are cooling the MVSs due to tight packaging in the engine bay.

How does the 6mm barb work with -4? I ask because the 4-5mm barb I used (see below) is a SLIGHTLY too loose of a fit for -4. Ill bet 6mm barb is perfect?

I agree - the 8mmx1.0 thread choice is the shitty part. TiAL spec'd in a really uncommon thread in those water ports and it screws you over. The supplied unions that they give stuck out too far out for my application as well when you add the 90deg AN -4 on there. Therefore I went with the following from Bel-Metric along with -3 hose ...

https://www.belmetric.com/bnjf845-ba...ath=13_853_855

https://www.belmetric.com/bnjb8x10-b...ath=13_853_854

https://www.belmetric.com/gsc8x12-so...ath=13_853_991

I have verified this works - though you should know three things...
1) They have a smaller nipple size if you need 2mm to 3mm as opposed to 4-5
2) You will need a small hose clamp like the cobra clamp from the Norma group (google Norma - they have everything)
3) You HAVE TO SHAVE THE BOLT DOWN slightly to get it to fit (too long by a few mm)

Anyway, just another option for those who like variety.

When using the -3 hose I found a hose end from discount hydraulic that allows one to step up to a -4AN female. But it is a crimp style so the average Joe cant go with this option. Therefore I kinda like the OP choices better.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by kahunab14 OP I feel your pain - good job on the research. I think you beat me in your efficient choices. I am water cooling a kit I am working on as a contract engineer. We are cooling the MVSs due to tight packaging in the engine bay. How does the 6mm barb work with -4? I ask because the 4-5mm barb I used (see below) is a SLIGHTLY too loose of a fit for -4. Ill bet 6mm barb is perfect? I agree - the 8mmx1.0 thread choice is the shitty part. TiAL spec'd in a really uncommon thread in those water ports and it screws you over. The supplied unions that they give stuck out too far out for my application as well when you add the 90deg AN -4 on there. Therefore I went with the following from Bel-Metric along with -3 hose ... https://www.belmetric.com/bnjf845-ba...ath=13_853_855 https://www.belmetric.com/bnjb8x10-b...ath=13_853_854 https://www.belmetric.com/gsc8x12-so...ath=13_853_991 I have verified this works - though you should know three things... 1) They have a smaller nipple size if you need 2mm to 3mm as opposed to 4-5 2) You will need a small hose clamp like the cobra clamp from the Norma group (google Norma - they have everything) 3) You HAVE TO SHAVE THE BOLT DOWN slightly to get it to fit (too long by a few mm) Anyway, just another option for those who like variety. When using the -3 hose I found a hose end from discount hydraulic that allows one to step up to a -4AN female. But it is a crimp style so the average Joe cant go with this option. Therefore I kinda like the OP choices better.

Update I now have it all installed everything fit perfect with the banjo fittings from England however the nipples were too small for my liking i wanted a tighter fit so I used some jb weld on the tips and used a file to round them off and I am operating without leaks. i think i took pictures ill look later to see about uploading them.

my tial is buried under manifold runners so I am sure this is beneficial for me

[Nitr0EngiE]

just an update, everything is still working great, the JB weld on the nipples have done their job to keep things tight and sealed and so far no issues

[Plimmer]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE just an update, everything is still working great, the JB weld on the nipples have done their job to keep things tight and sealed and so far no issues

Great, I copied you and have water cooled mine as well.

[Mazdazilla6]

What manifold do you have? I've thought about water cooling mine but couldn't justify it since it sits far enough away from my runners.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Please dont mistake the difference between being required and greatly extending the life of your valve.

inside the valve is a rubber bladder that keeps the seal (diaphragm) and using the water cooling drastically reduces the stress on that diaphragm and will extend the life of the MVS.

Just because you dont feel your manifold causes need does not mean that this wont benefit everyone and having my original Tial shit the bed I was not going to not hook it up.

My Manifold is custom made and the valve sits under the runners pretty close.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE Please dont mistake the difference between being required and greatly extending the life of your valve. inside the valve is a rubber bladder that keeps the seal (diaphragm) and using the water cooling drastically reduces the stress on that diaphragm and will extend the life of the MVS. Just because you dont feel your manifold causes need does not mean that this wont benefit everyone and having my original Tial shit the bed I was not going to not hook it up. My Manifold is custom made and the valve sits under the runners pretty close.

I understand completely. I was asking because you must have a very confined manifold for the valve to be placed so close to the runners. I've seen videos from Tial and other manufacturers who make wastegates and they go through extremely vigorous tests to make sure the product is solid. In some cases water cooling is a must, but for someone like me, the benefits are nil.

[Plimmer]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 I understand completely. I was asking because you must have a very confined manifold for the valve to be placed so close to the runners. I've seen videos from Tial and other manufacturers who make wastegates and they go through extremely vigorous tests to make sure the product is solid. In some cases water cooling is a must, but for someone like me, the benefits are nil.

The wastegate is picking up heat from the hot exhaust flowing through. Tial installation instructions say that for daily driver use the water cooling is probably not required since the gate is mostly closed and not flowing hot exhaust gases.

But if you track your car a lot then they recommend water cooling it. Also in the Mazdaspeed the exhaust is at the back of the engine so it probably doesn't get much cooling air flowing over it.

I water cooled mine as a reliability precaution, and to have the ability to do track days without having to worry about an overheated waste gate.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 I understand completely. I was asking because you must have a very confined manifold for the valve to be placed so close to the runners. I've seen videos from Tial and other manufacturers who make wastegates and they go through extremely vigorous tests to make sure the product is solid. In some cases water cooling is a must, but for someone like me, the benefits are nil.

you obviously did not read a single word I just posted, the benefits are far from Nil, you are wrong.

This information i am giving you comes from Tial support directly which I spoke to them on the phone several times during my replacement and testing process. What he said is that all cars should use the water cooling as it prolongs the life of the valve infinitely more by keeping the diaphragm cooler resulting in less stress and wear.

The difference being is if you have a racecar and your WOT all the time the heat generated is more constant and will foul out a valve much sooner than if it did not have the cooling basically making it required.

is it required on a DD, NO
Does it Benefit a DD car regardless of wastegate placement? YES
They would not have added this feature if it did not work or have a purpose.

[jdmage_mx5]

Do you have any pictures? How did you route your coolant lines?

[802MS3]

I'd love to see some pics too if you get a chance

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 I'd love to see some pics too if you get a chance

sorry I did not
get images uploaded, i am adding some to OP now where you can see how the lines are ran and where i tapped them.

i could have installed them with the feed lines to turbo but that would have requires a 3/8 x 1/4 x 3/8 tee fitting which was going to be a bigger pain to install, more expensive and harder to get the parts so I chose the TB coolant lines which I had bypassed anyways.