WMI or 5th port?

[mituc]

I'd leaning towards some additional fueling system to get a bit more fuel into the engine and mainly to cool down the air charge under boost.
So far I avoided to use a WMI kit just because I wanted to tune my car for one type of fuel, one map, and use the same map anywhere, any time. Also, methanol is a bit hard to get here as purchasing it as an individual is illegal. It can be purchased as a company as long as one can prove it's going to be used as a solvent or as a fuel, so I'd have to prostitute myself around a car shop and pay them get it for me. So that's not an option for me either, because it doesn't work with "anytime, anywhere" directive I had in mind when I started tuning the car. I purchased a WMI kit like 18 months ago and the whole container was confiscated by the customs operator for some problems with the carrier, so I told myself it's a sign

But now I'm back to this and besides widening the intake a little bit (still using a tiny Cobb SRI with a GTX30 turbo, 3" intake improvisation ) I'm debating what would be best: WMI or 5th port. Both work, both are up to the job, both have shortcomings and advantages but will get me even further and closed to my goals (and limits of a stock block, but hopefully run the engine cooler).

What you guys think? Remember, my goals don't go beyond the factory block capabilities, so 4 port injection is out of discussion for now (even if there's a chance I will have to rebuild the engine, I will still want to stay around 360-420whp as it's a daily driven car).

@Lex, @phate, @Voltwings, @atvfreek, @btstarcher, @superskaterxes, @djuosnteisn, @dturboman, @Dano, @silvapain, @rfinkle2

[twenty5psi]

For stock block WMI should be fine, 5th port is great through if you want to throw the extra $$$ at it.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by twenty5psi For stock block WMI should be fine, 5th port is great through if you want to throw the extra $$$ at it.

Well, the difference between a good WMI kit (say, aquamist) and a 5th port kit is not that big. We have some pretty wild winters sometimes here (down to -35C/-31F) and to be honest extra protection matters a lot.

[twenty5psi]

Originally Posted by mituc Well, the difference between a good WMI kit (say, aquamist) and a 5th port kit is not that big. We have some pretty wild winters sometimes here (down to -35C/-31F) and to be honest extra protection matters a lot.

Guess that answers it, the Aquamist is pretty much the best WMI kit money can buy, but if you're willing to spend that much on it you might be better off just going 5th port.

[ricardo_yen]

If at some point you plan on going the route of a built block then it would be important to determine how far away from going that route would you be. If you plan on rebuilding in like two years or so, I would go the route of WMi first, enjoy that before upgrading items like the ITFP. Just my 2c Victor, either way, I thinks it's time you went with a built block !!

[Vader]

You answered your own question.

Go 5th port, and don't look back.

[Voltwings]

A WMI kit with a MAF based controller will work fairly well, but my vote is still 5th port.

On my own car, i was able to push the car further on 93 alone after adding the 6th port, because the fuel still cooled the charge air when sprayed in that fashion. The tuning is a little more intricate with a 5th ( i have a spreadsheet i can send you to dial in your 5th port) but basically once its done its done since its MAF based as well. Honestly, as was said, a WMI kit with all the bells and whistles isnt much less than a 5th port, and a 5th port is just regular fill ups at the gas stations. Be it 93 or an E85 blend, you will see an improvement, and if installed correctly i feel it will be more reliable.

If you're stuck on using WMI though, you can try denatured alcohol. Its not nearly as effective as methanol, as the octane is lower, and it only has about 75% of the latent heat ... and its more expensive, but it can be made to work.

[rfinkle2]

My main issue with any of the meth kits I've had was the lines / fittings leaking, but that can be solved with using -4an pushlock (parker hose) and fittings or stainless lines and fittings.

If you are looking for charge cooling, 100% methanol injection cannot be beat.

I would forget the idea of running water in the meth kit, because there is maybe 1 person that I know of who ran a water mix that had a benefit over 100% meth in terms of knock resistance and charge cooling.

You didn't mention how easy e85 was to get in your area if @ all.

My vote is for an aem maf based based controller, your tank of choice, a solenoid and stainless lines.

I like the port injection kits, but IMO, your description (minus the legal aspects) has meth written all over it.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You didn't mention how easy e85 was to get in your area if @ all.

Nope, no E85 at all in this area... The closest station that has E85 is in France or Norway/Sweden, so way over 1000 miles away
I take it it's the AEM v2 you're recommending... I could still use a WMI kit with a denatured alcohol or isopropyl alcohol mix.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by mituc Nope, no E85 at all in this area... The closest station that has E85 is in France or Norway/Sweden, so way over 1000 miles away I take it it's the AEM v2 you're recommending... I could still use a WMI kit with a denatured alcohol or isopropyl alcohol mix.

Absolutely. Either of those 2 alcohols can be used.

The AEM controller that I like personally is this, but that is just my opinion.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/...ller%20Kit.pdf

[mr.speedy3]

Hell, with a big turbo and some E you may get close to that 420 goal lol

[Swinger13]

5th/6th port and WMI compliments each other well especially with lower/poor octane fuel.

[maisonvi]

Originally Posted by mr.speedy3 Hell, with a big turbo and some E you may get close to that 420 goal lol

I know Im running super high IDCs before then. This conversation is awesome. Please keep it up people who are smarter than me. Once I finish building I might be thinking about one or the other of these.

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by maisonvi I know Im running super high IDCs before then. This conversation is awesome. Please keep it up people who are smarter than me. Once I finish building I might be thinking about one or the other of these.

I'm 90% IDC with a single DO10 nozzle at the throttle body. no e pushing right under 500hp . Just a thought for ya. Running a 3076r with the works.

tapatalkin

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by mituc Nope, no E85 at all in this area... The closest station that has E85 is in France or Norway/Sweden, so way over 1000 miles away I take it it's the AEM v2 you're recommending... I could still use a WMI kit with a denatured alcohol or isopropyl alcohol mix.

Ahh, the lack of E85 changes my initial vote. I agree with Rfinkle about the lines leaking too, after having 1 pop off several times, i finally bit the bullet and switched to a full stainless steel kit so everything just threads into place. I got real ballsy and just went direct port meth at one point and just sprayed a d03 into each runner of the intake manifold ... you probably wont need to get that serious, but meth is some nice stuff either way.

[mxlplx71]

Im kinda in the same boat. I have a jmf port inj Mani w 4-Do3s, and a 6th port installed i dont even use. Gt3076 33lbs e30. Keep considering removing and selling one or the other ,just can't decide which one.

[Dano]

5th port...this coming from a meth user. Like Finkle said, the failure point of WMI is 90% the lines and I run -4an throughout on mine but that cost coin.

if starting from scratch you will spend less on 5th port than AM WMI and likely any WMI kit if you purchase then convert to AN.

I think that the AM lines are like a more traditional barrel and ferule type of connection vs push loc which might be less prone to leaks.

you can't convert the AM flow sensor to AN unless you get a BSP [British Std Pipe] to NPT + 2 other adapters on each side...i just researched this myself while upgrading my system's failsafe and lines.

that being said, meth does give more of an HP/Octane kick than 5th port and the decision gets even harder with no E85 being available. Meaning that if you don't have E, there is more weight on the side of meth in the decision making process IMO.

hope this helps.

Edit: BTW I just purchased the AEM 30-3020 failsafe and the 1st flow sensor never worked so they sent another one that worked for 6 pulls...both locked up internally. I run 100% meth and AEM states they support 100% meth in all their product pieces. They are currently looking at the sensor I sent back to them to try and determine the failure mode. This reminds me of all my initial issues with my Labonte FS that leaked/broke due to running 100% meth. Dan Labonte eventually filled up the sensor box with epoxy which resolved the issue.

so to sum this up, I have had more trouble with a failsafe box than my meth system itself

I may go to a pump voltage measuring type of FS like the Cooling Mist units.

[dturboman]

neither is fool proof, and can always fail... but if you have the right failsafes in place it could save your motor no matter which route you go. The Snow failsafe with 12v output works well too.

I was running 100% meth, progressive controller feeding off the MAF signal with a distribution block for the 5 nozzles. - worked great for me and I could run 46psi with 24* with not one bit of knock ( Q16 as primary fuel), but it really depends on your goals on the car. The AN lines are a great upgrade like @dano said, will cost you more but but worth it.

I would also see crazy low BAT's - keep in mind I had 4 D05 nozzles and 1 D10

if you're only looking for 400whp a good tune and some good 93 should get you there.... unsure what fuel is like by you.

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by Dano 5th port...this coming from a meth user. Like Finkle said, the failure point of WMI is 90% the lines and I run -4an throughout on mine but that cost coin. if starting from scratch you will spend less on 5th port than AM WMI and likely any WMI kit if you purchase then convert to AN. I think that the AM lines are like a more traditional barrel and ferule type of connection vs push loc which might be less prone to leaks. you can't convert the AM flow sensor to AN unless you get a BSP [British Std Pipe] to NPT + 2 other adapters on each side...i just researched this myself while upgrading my system's failsafe and lines. that being said, meth does give more of an HP/Octane kick than 5th port and the decision gets even harder with no E85 being available. Meaning that if you don't have E, there is more weight on the side of meth in the decision making process IMO. hope this helps. Edit: BTW I just purchased the AEM 30-3020 failsafe and the 1st flow sensor never worked so they sent another one that worked for 6 pulls...both locked up internally. I run 100% meth and AEM states they support 100% meth in all their product pieces. They are currently looking at the sensor I sent back to them to try and determine the failure mode. This reminds me of all my initial issues with my Labonte FS that leaked/broke due to running 100% meth. Dan Labonte eventually filled up the sensor box with epoxy which resolved the issue. so to sum this up, I have had more trouble with a failsafe box than my meth system itself I may go to a pump voltage measuring type of FS like the Cooling Mist units.

I REALLLLLY wish I went with AN fittings... I just bought a pre-turbo meth setup that ran about me around $130 in regular shit. Not using it, maybe I'll return it and get a $130 credit to throw towards an AN setup.

[skeurton]

I installed an Aquamist HFS-4. After more than a year, I haven't had a single problem, leaks or otherwise. The built-in failsafes work great once you get them dialed in, and tuning is straightforward. The only thing you have to do is make sure the meth tank is topped off. Of course, like others have said, the trade-off is cost since it's only a little bit less than a 5th port.

Installation is a tad bit more tedious than a regular WMI kit, but well worth it. Here's my install thread if you want to see a few more details.

Aquamist HFS-4 Install

Can't go wrong with either IMO, but that's just my 2 cents... or get both

[mxlplx71]

Which one helps more in keeping the valves clean?

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by mxlplx71 Which one helps more in keeping the valves clean?

Spraying enough to fuel those HP levels, either will suffice. An important thing to keep an eye on though is distribution. I had this "scary" discovery one day when i had my intake manifold off ... food for thought. 6th port injection + ported manifold

[mituc]

Originally Posted by mxlplx71 Which one helps more in keeping the valves clean?

Probably 5th/6th port since petrol is a better solvent for the kind of deposits that accumulate on the valves in the DI engines. But I'd rather put my money on getting a good oil for that rather than relying on any kind of port injection for valve cleaning (Let's talk about engine oils).

[Swinger13]

Originally Posted by mituc Probably 5th/6th port since petrol is a better solvent for the kind of deposits that accumulate on the valves in the DI engines. But I'd rather put my money on getting a good oil for that rather than relying on any kind of port injection for valve cleaning (Let's talk about engine oils).

gasoline will probably clean better but as far as performance goes (which is is the main reason why auxillary fueling is available), WMI "could" be more beneficial. Depending on your gas quality, you will probably hit KR before you max out your port injection system. WMI helps you use more of that through octane quality and cooling; as a side benefit, it will clean along side the gasoline.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My main issue with any of the meth kits I've had was the lines / fittings leaking, but that can be solved with using -4an pushlock (parker hose) and fittings or stainless lines and fittings. If you are looking for charge cooling, 100% methanol injection cannot be beat. I would forget the idea of running water in the meth kit, because there is maybe 1 person that I know of who ran a water mix that had a benefit over 100% meth in terms of knock resistance and charge cooling. You didn't mention how easy e85 was to get in your area if @ all. My vote is for an aem maf based based controller, your tank of choice, a solenoid and stainless lines. I like the port injection kits, but IMO, your description (minus the legal aspects) has meth written all over it.

I'll send an email to @EdgeAutosport.com and see what they can find for me. I'll probably get the AEM v2, but we'll see.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Swinger13 gasoline will probably clean better but as far as performance goes (which is is the main reason why auxillary fueling is available), WMI "could" be more beneficial. Depending on your gas quality, you will probably hit KR before you max out your port injection system. WMI helps you use more of that through octane quality and cooling; as a side benefit, it will clean along side the gasoline.

Please do consider that fueling via 5th port/WMI is only occurring roughly 1% of the time fuel is being used in the motor. (Figure pulled completely out of my ass but I suspect its close ) Unless racecar. Neither will clean your valves enough to matter or sway any argument one way or the other, 5th port vs WMI.

[Swinger13]

Originally Posted by Dano Please do consider that fueling via 5th port/WMI is only occurring roughly 1% of the time fuel is being used in the motor. (Figure pulled completely out of my ass but I suspect its close ) Unless racecar. Neither will clean your valves enough to matter or sway any argument one way or the other, 5th port vs WMI.

yeah its a lazy yet courageous way to clean up valves lol

[Dano]

[mituc]

Anyway I don't add another fueling system to clean the intake valves, I'm doing it because I'm a certified idiot.
As stated before for the valves I'm trying to get the best engine oils available around.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Dano Please do consider that fueling via 5th port/WMI is only occurring roughly 1% of the time fuel is being used in the motor. (Figure pulled completely out of my ass but I suspect its close ) Unless racecar. Neither will clean your valves enough to matter or sway any argument one way or the other, 5th port vs WMI.

I sprayed 1 gallon of meth over ~2k miles at around ... Mmmm 45k miles or so? All of these were with no occ or egr delete, and my valves were spotless after that. Your results may vary, but it does clean them rather well.

[Swinger13]

Originally Posted by Voltwings I sprayed 1 gallon of meth over ~2k miles at around ... Mmmm 45k miles or so? All of these were with no occ or egr delete, and my valves were spotless after that. Your results may vary, but it does clean them rather well.

but you tracked your vehicle quite a bit as well am I correct?

This method of cleaning would be far less effective with my driving habits vs someone like yours or anyone that drives more aggressively and/or tracks.

[michael.fetner]

Originally Posted by mr.speedy3 I'm 90% IDC with a single DO10 nozzle at the throttle body. no e pushing right under 500hp . Just a thought for ya. Running a 3076r with the works. tapatalkin

how long have you but pushing this much horsepower on stock block?

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Swinger13 but you tracked your vehicle quite a bit as well am I correct? This method of cleaning would be far less effective with my driving habits vs someone like yours or anyone that drives more aggressively and/or tracks.

That's why i listed both how much i sprayed, and over what time period. Didn't so much track it, but i would fiddle with my tune daily, so i was always going WOT for at least 1 gear once a day. Potentially more on the weekends.

[Lex]

If you have high octane base fuel such as e85 then consider 6th port. Tuning for bigger numbers is easier since the aux fueling system allows you better control when you are adding 25%+ more fueling. The calculator I put up on our site makes setting up the aux controller a set it and forget it deal.

http://www.stratifiedauto.com/R4%20F...tor/Index.html

If your fuel is not great and no e85 around then methanol may be a better alternative and it is cheaper to implement.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Voltwings I sprayed 1 gallon of meth over ~2k miles at around ... Mmmm 45k miles or so? All of these were with no occ or egr delete, and my valves were spotless after that. Your results may vary, but it does clean them rather well.

hum...real world data is always better than theory. So you are saying that you were at 45k miles with the valves never before cleaned and then ran only 1 gallon of meth and they were spotless??

was this port injected meth?

[mituc]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My vote is for an aem maf based based controller, your tank of choice, a solenoid and stainless lines.

The AEM V2 WMI kit is sold in two versions: with a MAP sensor and "multi input". I assume I should get the multi-input version to use it with the MAF voltage signal, right?

[mr.speedy3]

Originally Posted by michael.fetner how long have you but pushing this much horsepower on stock block?

Exactly 0 days. I'm running a built block.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Dano hum...real world data is always better than theory. So you are saying that you were at 45k miles with the valves never before cleaned and then ran only 1 gallon of meth and they were spotless?? was this port injected meth?

No, just a single D07, and thats correct, they had never been cleaned prior. It may have been a little over a gallon, this was a few years ago so i may be fuzzy, but i remember it was not much. Certainly not more than 1-2 tanks (which were ~1gallon).

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by mituc The AEM V2 WMI kit is sold in two versions: with a MAP sensor and "multi input". I assume I should get the multi-input version to use it with the MAF voltage signal, right?

I would.. I have the same controller.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My main issue with any of the meth kits I've had was the lines / fittings leaking, but that can be solved with using -4an pushlock (parker hose) and fittings or stainless lines and fittings.

Looks like DO has such a kit of stainless lines, the guys from Edge just sent me a link I never came across myself: Stainless Steel Line set

The thing is that the DO stage2 kits work only with boost input, and the idea of not having to tap any wire or run so many wires is also something I like.
I guess with this turbo I should be fine as the maximum boost with my tune is reached at the rev limit, so there's a progression in the boost ramping across the entire rev range. On this setup I have I have to be very insistent to reach more than like 15psi below 3000rpm (only flooring the car in 5th/6th uphill around 2500rpm may result into that). Basically it's like that:
- 19psi at 3500rpm;
- 20psi at 4200rpm;
- 21psi at 4700rpm;
- 22psi at 5000rpm;
- 23psi at 5500rpm;
- 24psi at 6000rpm;
- 25psi at 6500rpm;
- 26psi at 6750-6800rpm.
- 26.2-26.5psi at 7000rpm just before the fuel cut.

So I guess if I will use exactly as much boost as I use now I can start spraying at 16-18psi and set it to full duty cycle at 22 or something, as I like how the car drives now below 5000rpm and I don't really want more power below (I will not be able to use it because the lack of traction and I don't want to get any hate from the rods).