kw coilovers + swaybars = new end links?

[stefan]

so in this thread the OP says he had to get new end links because the stockers were too long on his kw v3/fsb setup.

i have a set of hotchkis rear/front swaybars that i'll be putting on my car some time soon and i'm also most likely getting a set of kw coils (not sure yet if v1 or v2). so i'm thinking ahead if i will also need new endlinks. not looking for a hellaflush look, just a nice drop for a daily driver with an occasional trackday in the future.

also, it seems like there's a difference between MS3 and MS6 end links so i won't be able to buy a used set of MS6 end links should i find some, correct?

MS6: AWR-6505FR (Adjustable Sway Bar End Links - Mazda6 Mazdaspeed6 2003-2008 - Aftermarket Sway Bars)
MS3: AWR-4505FR (Adjustable Sway Bar End Links - Mazda3 Mazdaspeed3 2004-2009 - Front - Aftermarket Sway Bars)

halp pls

[socks]

you will want the endlinks.

the kw coils dont have seperate adjustments for preload and height, and they reuse the stock upper mount, so you cant preload the springs without adjusting the height.

you'll need the endlinks if you intend to corner balance the car.

[Design]

There has definitely been some lively discussion on front endlinks. Most agree that you should maintain the factory position of the front sway bar (parallel to the ground) to minimize binding on the strut and sway bar bushings. You'll need to factor in your drop and the postiion of the endlink mounts on both the strut and the sway bar. KW's endlink mounts on the strut are approximately 1" lower than OEM.

Talk to Saitek if you're interested in adjustable front sealed endlinks. More discussion here:
BC Coilovers

[cudaman]

Originally Posted by Design There has definitely been some lively discussion on front endlinks. Most agree that you should maintain the factory position of the front sway bar (parallel to the ground) to minimize binding on the strut and sway bar bushings. You'll need to factor in your drop and the postiion of the endlink mounts on both the strut and the sway bar. KW's endlink mounts on the strut are approximately 1" lower than OEM. Talk to Saitek if you're interested in adjustable front sealed endlinks. More discussion here: BC Coilovers

Agreed... about 1" and something reliable. Check them out or hang out at an M3 shop where they toss endlinks into the recycling bin, and then go dumpster diving. In fact, that's not a bad idea. Go to a suspension shop and ask them if they have any leftover endlinks from stock M3's that you could buy. Measure them compared to the stocker MS3's and you are good to go. They will cut you a deal since they probably have no use for the old M3 links.

[Haltech]

Are thoe E46 M3 or the new ones?

[Nliiitend1]

E46.

I just bought a set of aftermarket "Heavy Duty" E46 M3 endlinks, but I haven't had a chance to install them yet...

I paid ~$50 shipped from here: BMA Auto Parts | Bumper to Bumper since 1978 | Oem auto parts, vw parts, sachs boge, mercedes benz parts, honda auto parts, saab parts

Here are some crappy cellphone pictures of the comparison between them and OEM links:







It's difficult to see in the pics, but the OEM Mazda links are about 307 mm from stud center to stud center, and the M3 links are about 272 mm.

So the difference is about 1 and 3/8".

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 E46. I just bought a set of aftermarket "Heavy Duty" E46 M3 endlinks, but I haven't had a chance to install them yet... I paid ~$50 shipped from here: BMA Auto Parts | Bumper to Bumper since 1978 | Oem auto parts, vw parts, sachs boge, mercedes benz parts, honda auto parts, saab parts

wow these are a lot cheaper than AWR's which are $114. i wonder about the quality of those M3 end links. they look a lot skinnier than the AWRs.

AWR end links on streetunit, $114
M3 end links on bmaparts, ~$50

[Nliiitend1]

They're certainly beefier than the OEM Mazda links...

Not only are the rods ever-so-slightly bigger in diameter, the balljoints themselves are larger too.

I'm also not a fan of using heim joints for this application if it can be helped, so I didn't even consider the AWRs...

[stefan]

cool, let me know how it works out please, thanks!

[cudaman]

See my original thread. I added an update that shows a picture of the M3 end links with a ruler in the pictures. M3 endlinks appear to be about 11" hole-center to hole-center.

[trdsw]

Originally Posted by cudaman See my original thread. I added an update that shows a picture of the M3 end links with a ruler in the pictures. M3 endlinks appear to be about 11" hole-center to hole-center.

A link for the lazy

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...essions-64356/

Also I just received a set of Meyle m3 links. My first observation is that there very heavy duty just like it say s. the links take quite a bit of persuasion to move. They'll go on the car tomorrow if its not storming again. Hopefully they rid me of some front end grunts and groans

[Nliiitend1]

They're actually probably more like ~10.6-10.7". That's how long mine are.

I just put mine on today and it definitely feels a lot better than it did with the stock-length endlinks. The strange dynamic behavior that I noticed when I put the coilovers on (the steering wheel wanting to jerk back and forth violently when loading the bar - like when turning slowly into a driveway ingress, the strange on-center feel, etc.) definitely had something do do with the stock links being too long.

So I'll go as far as to say that anyone who gets KW/MS coilovers (regardless of whether or not you're using an aftermarket swaybar) should be installing shorter, more appropriate-length front endlinks.

[trdsw]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 They're actually probably more like ~10.6-10.7". That's how long mine are. I just put mine on today and it definitely feels a lot better than it did with the stock-length endlinks. The strange dynamic behavior that I noticed when I put the coilovers on (the steering wheel wanting to jerk back and forth violently when loading the bar - like when turning slowly into a driveway ingress, the strange on-center feel, etc.) definitely had something do do with the stock links being too long. So I'll go as far as to say that anyone who gets KW/MS coilovers (regardless of whether or not you're using an aftermarket swaybar) should be installing shorter, more appropriate-length front endlinks.

Did the nuts that came with the endlinks feel a little too tight? The ones that cme with my endlinks feel like theyll cross thread just 3 threads in. Ill probably have to get some new ones or rethread the ones that came with the kit.

[Nliiitend1]

I actually had my alignment shop do it while they were sorting out my front cross-camber yesterday, so I can't say for sure. They certainly didn't mention any problems...

Are you sure they aren't just locknuts?

[Design]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 So I'll go as far as to say that anyone who gets KW/MS coilovers (regardless of whether or not you're using an aftermarket swaybar) should be installing shorter, more appropriate-length front endlinks.

I'm still not convinced. I still think the drop plays a factor in length. I'm picking V2's/V3's in a month and will experimenting with different lengths just to be sure.


EDIT: I asked Cudaman the same thing; can you post pictures of your bar at static height? I'm interested to see the rake (if any) with the shorter endlinks relative to your drop.

[trdsw]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 I actually had my alignment shop do it while they were sorting out my front cross-camber yesterday, so I can't say for sure. They certainly didn't mention any problems... Are you sure they aren't just locknuts?

No not lock nuts for sure. I tried to just tighten them down with a ratchet and I can already see the wear they were putting on the first few threads. I slowly back them off and re threaded them to the correct thread pitch. Now they go on the right way. i hope my set was the only one like that and if not your shop didnt just shoot them on. There so stiff they barely require the allen key to get them off.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Design I'm still not convinced. I still think the drop plays a factor in length. I'm picking V2's/V3's in a month and will experimenting with different lengths just to be sure. EDIT: I asked Cudaman the same thing; can you post pictures of your bar at static height? I'm interested to see the rake (if any) with the shorter endlinks relative to your drop.

Of course it does. I certainly never said otherwise. I just think that (at least with the MS Coilovers, which have a very small ride height adjustment range) the mounting "ear" for the swaybar on the strut is moved so much relative to the strut bottom that regardless of your drop, you're gonna want to get shorter links. From what I can see by taking pictures with the car on the ground and the wheels on the car, my swaybar still looks like it could be canted a tiny tiny bit downward, if anything, but it looks pretty well-positioned overall. They're good enough that I don't know that I'll change them out again unless I ever get around to corner-weighting the car...

It should definitely be noted that my car is currently set to the "recommended" height in the front and the rear is maxed out at it's highest setting (these settings give a "level" drop, at least visually - I initially had the rear 5 mm lower, which is the "recommended" height in the instructions).

Here are a few crappy pictures I took today. Note also that the car is currently on 17x7 et44 Ford Fusion wheels with 215/50R17 winter tires:







I took a bunch of pictures sort of "blindly" but trying to keep the camera perpendicular to the ground for most of them... I took a shitload of pictures to try to give the best representation possible of my bar's current static position:

Originally Posted by trdsw No not lock nuts for sure. I tried to just tighten them down with a ratchet and I can already see the wear they were putting on the first few threads. I slowly back them off and re threaded them to the correct thread pitch. Now they go on the right way. i hope my set was the only one like that and if not your shop didnt just shoot them on. There so stiff they barely require the allen key to get them off.

I don't know man, are you sure they weren't all-metal locknuts (not the nylon-type).

My threads look fine.

[trdsw]

I might of just gotten unlucky. they started shearing the first few threads and took quite a bit of force to get on. Its done taken care of. I emailed the seller just to warn but if yours are ok maybe its was just a fluke of bad luck for me.

[Design]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Of course it does. I certainly never said otherwise. I just think that (at least with the MS Coilovers, which have a very small ride height adjustment range) the mounting "ear" for the swaybar on the strut is moved so much relative to the strut bottom that regardless of your drop, you're gonna want to get shorter links.

Yeah but your statement was pretty bold to include KW lol. I just think their adjustment range is too wide to be included in your assessment - at least with the limited info we have right now.

Thanks for the pics BTW. It's tough to understand the true position of the bar without seeing the relative position of the sway bar bushing. IIRC the mounting point is the same height as the bushing itself. But I'll have to reference a stock MS3 just to be sure.

In any case I hope others are willing to experiment with length as I feel this is one of the most overlooked components in any setup.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Design Yeah but your statement was pretty bold to include KW lol. I just think their adjustment range is too wide to be included in your assessment - at least with the limited info we have right now. Thanks for the pics BTW. It's tough to understand the true position of the bar without seeing the relative position of the sway bar bushing. IIRC the mounting point is the same height as the bushing itself. But I'll have to reference a stock MS3 just to be sure. In any case I hope others are willing to experiment with length as I feel this is one of the most overlooked components in any setup.

Fair enough.

Now, let me qualify my statement regarding the KW setups by saying that if you are going with one of the KW setups and you don't intend to slam your car, and you're looking to keep your ride height at an optimum or near-optimum position for proper handling, you're going to want to get shorter endlinks.

Otherwise (i.e., if you're just going to dump it to it's lowest or near-lowest setting), the stock links might work out OK for you.

I don't see any situation occuring with these coilovers that have really shortened swaybar-mounting-ear-to-strut-bottom distances where you would actually need longer endlinks, but if if makes people feel better to experiment, more power to them.

[Tweaek]

Great info gents. Thank you much!

[cudaman]

I'll try to post similar pictures as Nillltend1 showing my static arrangement. I don't have any of those herky-jerky problems, though. In fact, I love the steering feel with the KW/Hotchkis/11" endlink set up. Or, maybe my installers tweaked it for the optimum ride/feel/cornering. They do top-notch work. Let's hope the weather holds up for the pictures so I don't get wet.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by cudaman I'll try to post similar pictures as Nillltend1 showing my static arrangement. I don't have any of those herky-jerky problems, though. In fact, I love the steering feel with the KW/Hotchkis/11" endlink set up. Or, maybe my installers tweaked it for the optimum ride/feel/cornering. They do top-notch work. Let's hope the weather holds up for the pictures so I don't get wet.

I don't have any "herky-jerky" problems either with the new links.

It feels great now.

Sorry if that was unclear from my previous posts.

[silvapain]

Just get adjustable endlinks.

[cudaman]

Here's those pictures. I used a small camera with a decent flash, angled up just enough to catch the endlink connections on both left and right sides, plus a showing of my drop. diddyo and/or someone else wanted to know about the "rake" of the sway bar related to the ground, when flat on pavement. Here it is: