MS6 Suspension Data & DIY Bilstein Coilovers

[phate]

I got a 40 pound package of bushings, haha.


@Tomas;

[aviator79]

what did you buy extras for me?

[phate]

Lol, they're for a couple guys in Illinois and Tomas.

[xfeejayx]

Originally Posted by phate I got a 40 pound package of bushings, haha. @Tomas;

Gimme!

I should have gotten 2 sets.

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[MSP611]

Could u send me a list of all the bushings they provide or the site where to get em.. Would be greatly appreciate

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[phate]

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru....php?p=2818338

[Tomas]

Soviet bushings FTW.

[vortk355]

Have you had a chance to compare the bushings you modified for the toe links with the bushing you thought may work yet? part #s 4-06-2792 and 4-06-127.

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate I got a 40 pound package of bushings, haha...

How has your set of those bushings held up? Wear? Noise?

I know some have a press fit to the inner sleeve, as shown here:
Russian Poly Bushings with Press fit Inner Sleeve
Note other links on this page, very good site to browse, vs US options.

EDIT: I also noticed they request that the sway bar be cleared of any paint where the pivot bushings fit ... down to metal. I have always done this, especially for thick powder coatings.

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[phate]

Originally Posted by vortk355 Have you had a chance to compare the bushings you modified for the toe links with the bushing you thought may work yet? part 4-06-2792 and 4-06-127.

I haven't put a caliper on them yet, but just eyeballing them I'd say they'll work fine. The OD of the 127's is 3-4mm bigger than the 2792's. I'll measure things this weekend and update.

Originally Posted by KevinK2 How has your set of those bushings held up? Wear? Noise? I know some have a press fit to the inner sleeve, as shown here: Russian Poly Bushings with Press fit Inner Sleeve Note other links on this page, very good site to browse, vs US options. .

I haven't noticed any wear or cracking of the bushings, nor any noise. I'll go through them more thoroughly when I pull everything apart next month.

I was happy to see the front forward LCA bushings are the green poly (harder material) with press fit sleeves. Those stock bushings are notorious for wearing out, probably because of the high lateral load combined with large angles of rotation. The Whiteline lca bushings made a noticeable difference when they were new and still tight. I was able to reduce negative camber by ~.4° in the front end. Hoping to see similar results with the Russian hardware.

[KevinK2]

There are very sharp people on this thread who know alot about suspension design. I think we would agree that going with 200% to 300% stiffer linear springs will reduce body roll in a corner, and Phate is a good example with his stock front sway bar, and a custom rear bar that is a bit stiffer than the Whiteline set on stiff. The prior pics showed minimal roll on his 850/700 lb springs. Hyperco is a big supplier of race springs, and offered a tech article about linear vs progressive springs. But they insist that llinear rate springs offer no, zero roll control. When challeneged, it's like that Spinaltap movie where a guy explains that having an amp's dial go to 11 means it's louder than the usual 10. hypercoils linear-vs-progressive springs. "no roll control" with linear rates
Wrong right?

Spinaltap's 11 video
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[Nliiitend1]

I'd say whoever wrote that is making some serious false assumptions about the typical car's roll center, CG, and suspension geometry (and how they relate to and affect one another)...

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by phate This reminds me: I did a quick test of the Steeda bar a while back but never posted the numbers ...... Steeda Front Sway Bar - 385lb/in ..... I come up with a theoretical bench rate of 570lb/in ..... To answer your question: Yes, I have enough rear bar to compensate back to my current roll stiffness distribution. Even with solid bushings on the front bar so it is near the 570lb/in rate, I still have enough to just barely get more rear bias than I currently have.

Sorry about the late response, but I was asking about using rigid bushings on the oem front bar like on your custom rear bar ... delrin, nylon, aluminum. The Puhn and Staniford numbers for the bar were 496 and 414 lb/in. This suggests it would be less than the 570 lb rate that pushes your current rear bar limit of what a rigidly mounted Steeda bar would do, as you noted. It would take more work to make the custom, stiff bushings, but that may help more with turn in.


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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 I'd say whoever wrote that is making some serious false assumptions about the typical car's roll center, CG, and suspension geometry (and how they relate to and affect one another)...

It's worse than that. The guy says he is a physicist, and has 30+ years in suspension design for pro racing forms. So i give him a limit check .. infinitely stiff spring means no roll, 5 lb/in springs of adequate travel means you just flop to the shock limits with each turn. Still says linear springs have no roll control ...

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[phate]

I had an old set of rear lower control arms sitting here without bushings. I cleaned up the bushing receivers and pressed in the new hardware.



I also set up the tire rate test rig again. I'll do a full sweep of spring rates at different pressures tomorrow. I did a test pass and it looks like the Hoosiers are nearly double the stiffness of the RS3's. Just over 3300lb/in @ 55psi.

[phate]

Johanna and I did the full pressure range today. 25-55psi in 5psi increments. 2 tests per pressure and then I averaged the readings at each displacement point. Load readings were taken every .050" until the scale limit of 1250lb was reached. The readings were doubled, as the tire in this rig acts like two equal rate springs in series (both sides are being compressed).


^The slope of the line is the rate of the tire in lb/in.

Quite different from the Hankook RS3's. I expect to run them at 35-40psi, and they're ~50% stiffer than the RS3's. That should equate to a higher understeer bias by a small amount. I'll be able to correct that (and other things) with rear bar changes.

[Tomas]

Bushings received.
Gonna do the rear LCAs first once I have the 3 off the stands.
I am starting to get annoyed with the 500 lbs springs in the rear. I honestly don't know how you can handle those rear 700 lbs + spring for daily driving. I think I am going to need physical therapy on my neck. The 350 lbs springs were still very comfortable compared to stock and took care of the rear floatiness completely. Car still just squatted a lil. I am going to go up to 400 and see how that feels.

[MSP611]

Hmmm Im hoping tht my 600lb qa1s in the rear are OK.. I think I should be OK but I know this will be the limit on the valving for the sonic tuning setup

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[phate]

Originally Posted by Tomas Bushings received. Gonna do the rear LCAs first once I have the 3 off the stands. I am starting to get annoyed with the 500 lbs springs in the rear. I honestly don't know how you can handle those rear 700 lbs + spring for daily driving. I think I am going to need physical therapy on my neck. The 350 lbs springs were still very comfortable compared to stock and took care of the rear floatiness completely. Car still just squatted a lil. I am going to go up to 400 and see how that feels.

What fronts are you running? Have you verified the spring rate of any of your springs? Any bump stops?

[Tomas]

I went from 425 to 500 lbs in the front and the ride is still very compliant. The FSDs are definitely having a harder time keeping the front end tied down now but I am still not willing to use the Bills for DD. With any sort of semi-stiff valving the ride becomes insupportable.
I have not verified spring rates.
Thee are bump stops in both front and back.

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by MSP611 Hmmm Im hoping tht my 600lb qa1s in the rear are OK.. I think I should be OK but I know this will be the limit on the valving for the sonic tuning setup Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

You wont want to daily drive that with 600 lb in the rear

[MSP611]

Originally Posted by davychronic You wont want to daily drive that with 600 lb in the rear

Guess we'll see... Ima try it and Im used to stiff, technically car is only driven 1 month a year when I'm home but those 30 days it's almost every day.. I think I can deal

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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by Tomas ..... I am starting to get annoyed with the 500 lbs springs in the rear. I honestly don't know how you can handle those rear 700 lbs + spring for daily driving. I think I am going to need physical therapy on my neck.....

IF you have a MS3, the rear suspension has much different location of the spring on the lower control arm, with a higher Motion Ratio that is squared to get the rate at the wheel. So Phates 700# in the rear may be like 500's in your car, but I don't think Phate's in much of a dd, based on shop time, but not sure of this.

MS6 Rear Suspension

Mazda 3 Rear Suspension



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[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by KevinK2 IF you have a MS3, the rear suspension has much different location of the spring on the lower control arm, with a higher Motion Ratio that is squared to get the rate at the wheel. So Phates 700# in the rear may be like 500's in your car, but I don't think Phate's in much of a dd, based on shop time, but not sure of this. MS6 Rear Suspension Mazda 3 Rear Suspension .

@Tomas; has both an MS3 and an MS6.

I believe he's referring to his 6 in the above post...


...and @phate;'s MS6 is his only car/DD.

[Tomas]

Nintendo is on all counts correct.

350 lbs pig tail springs compared to stock. Rear. Best DD set up so far. Much firmer than stock. Minimal squat left. Not bouncy.



MS6 rear 250/500 springs. Gets bouncy. Prepare for light neck injuries.



MS6 front with FSD and 425 springs (hands down best front DD set up ever for MS6)



Filling rattling full homo only set up (for me) with 600 springs, front

[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by Tomas .... MS6 rear 250/500 springs. Gets bouncy. Prepare for light neck injuries....

Thanks for the pic's.



Do you know if just the sprung weight was enough to near fully (or fully) collapse the close coils, so you were often riding on the 500 lb rate in dd mode?

You can see signs of contact at the two close coil gaps.


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[Tomas]

Yes it was. The 250 section is almost fully compressed at static height. It is more of a "filler" section (not necessarily a dead coil) so the spring sits compressed under full droop.

[KevinK2]

Was the 250/500 rear springs part of a kit for the MS6?


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[Tomas]

No. Blue coil spring OTS.

[phate]

I got a little bit done today. First thing was to test the MS3 SPC camber arms from @zenit;. In short, these aren't going to work. First off, the MS3 bushings are narrower. Secondly, if you put them in as they should be, with the adjusters towards the wheel side, the arm contacts the subframe in droop (just below ride height).






If you want to hate life, you could actually replace the MS3 bushings with the MS6 UCA bushings (they're the same diameter, different length), then put the SPC arms in backwards. They'll be a huge pain to adjust in that tight space, though.









Looking at the SPC arm for the Mazda6/Fusion, you can see why it's the shape it is. This is SPC part# 67425:





Since it only contacted in droop, I was able to check cross talk between UCA camber adjustment and toe. I forgot to take pictures of the setup, but I took a video that doesn't show anything very well (haha). The setup was similar to how I did the bump steer tests, except I just projected the laser line onto a wall. That was 102" away, and I just looked at the horizontal drift of the laser line over the camber adjustment range.

I went from -8° camber to +2° camber. The drift at the wall was 2.5". 2.5" over a 102" projected length is only .024° over the entire range of camber adjustment. Since we went through 10° of camber range, that's only .0024° toe per 1° camber...in other words nothing. Adjustable uppers are on my list now, I want to be able to change camber settings that easily.


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I took the rear suspension apart right after that for bushings. If you remember, I used some of the Russian LCA bushings (4-06-2792) in the toe link by pressing in an aluminum sleeve. I wanted to try the 4-06-127 bushings listed for the Mazda6 toe link, so I had to get those sleeves out of the toe links...they didn't want to cooperate:





After that, the 127's went in and fit perfectly:



I was really glad to see the 127's came in the harder, green poly. That let's me keep a harder bushing in the toe link and a slightly softer bushing in the LCA (orange poly). Passive toe control, haha.



I went ahead with the trailing arm bushings, also. If you remember way back, one of them was pretty loose when I first tried installing them and I bailed on them. I worked the flange a little bit in the press and got it to fit pretty tightly. Tightly enough that I was almost comfortable enough putting it in, but I took an extra step and epoxied the bushing sleeve to the trailing arm. JB Weld was the choice option over a lot of Loctite options. It's ok with filling slight gaps, has good strength, and isn't an anaerobic cure like the Loctite options. I'm letting these cure overnight and I'll put them on tomorrow.



Picture of the rear arms (minus one UCA that I didn't pull out).

















Updated list.

• Bushings - Rear done, need to do front
• Front UCA bushings: make from Delrin or Nylon.
• Battery: I need to draw something up in CAD still. The battery thread is really interesting, I recommend reading it.
• Exhaust: need to buy a short elbow and we'll be in business.
  
• DONE: Rear Adj UCA: Investigation of MS3 arm finished
• Rear Adj UCA - Get SPC 67425 arms for the MS6
• Front Sway bar
• Chop and flare.
• Corner balance and align.
• DONE: Test spring rate of Hoosiers at different pressures.
• AC Delete - Parts received
• Turbo and downpipe gaskets (not really related to this thread, just something on my list of to-do's).

[:: Gusto ::]

I HATE my BC coil-overs.. Want bags.

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[dagrimey1]

Get better springs

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[:: Gusto ::]

Originally Posted by dagrimey1 Get better springs Sent using Moto Fo Sho Doe

They don't make better springs for the ms6..
Only for the ms3.

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[dagrimey1]

Did you not read this post? The whole thing is about swapping springs in a hybrid BC/Bilstein setup. I'm currently running Sonic Coils with upgraded springs from QA1. So stiff and handles great. I left the front alone and just did the rear. $150 for rear springs and it feels like a whole new setup.

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[MSP611]

Originally Posted by :: Gusto :: They don't make better springs for the ms6.. Only for the ms3.. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

u obviously haven't read this thread there are multiple companies tht make springs tht will work for the 6.. you just have to do the research on size and spring rate u want/need..

[:: Gusto ::]

Hah no.. 68pages on Tapatalk.. Fk that.

Just so read over the last two pages....

Sorry... I've had my '06 ms6 since winter '07 .. & I've had BC's on it for the passed 5 yrs... I'm not happy w/ the rear set up, not just the spring set up.
In the rear..1 of my adj.knobs seized up, & the other shock blew out, clunks constantly. That happened roughly 1.5yrs ago.. & I drive the car so rarely. I've yet to invest in something else for the rear.

I'm happy to see people have started to mix/match set ups for the car.. Since most ots set-ups suck.

I have to read more into this.. But bags seems like a good idea.. At least they did 3 yes ago.. Heh


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[KevinK2]

Originally Posted by :: Gusto :: I HATE my BC coil-overs.. Want bags...

Why? -> you just answered that Sounds like just a set of rear adjustable shocks is needed.

Note that this kit, as sold by Streetunit, is for both the M6 and the heavier MS6. The spring rates were likely designed for the M6.

Originally Posted by StreetUnit BC Racing Street/Track Adjustable Coilover Kit Application: 2006-07 MAZDASPEED 6 2003-08 Mazda 6 Part Number: N-01

In this thread, alternate springs are selected.

One good thing about the BC coilovers is the way the front strut height adjustment is done. The body of the upper strut has the slightly preloaded spring installed, with the shock's piston about centered in the stroke, when the car is parked. The ride height adjustment is done by rotating the upper body into the lower body, with a third locknut to hold the adjustment, and does not affect the centering of the piston in it's travel range.


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[:: Gusto ::]

Yea I would keep my BC's .. & most likely do bags over coils..

I like the idea of adjustability on the fly, for whatever wheels I want to run.
Since I currently own 5 sets of wheels for my car.. Ranging from 17"-19" .. The adjustability with a push of a button seems right.

I'm curious, does another manufacturer make a rear CO kit that have a adjustment knob that's actually accessible???

Since the BC have then further up, near the perches.

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[phate]

Rear suspension is all back together and the rear bar is back on. I had it on the rack this morning for an alignment. No issues, so we'll just see how everything holds up. Once we got everything together, I put the new wheels and tires on for a test fit.









Mucho poke. I just held the flares up to get an idea of what they'll look like.

[vortk355]

I apologize for cluttering up this great thread but i have a few questions for those like me that would like to upgrade to a lesser extent.
I have the standard Bils, what spring rates can they handle without being re valved?
I am confused on the math of spring rate to wheel rate, I thought it was spring rate x motion ratio = wheel rate.
Would these work for the rear? Rear Adjustable Spring Perch & Mount - Kaplhenke Racing LLC.

Tomas are the rear springs you are using require the adjustable spring perch?