AUTO-X -Bang for buck setup

[snailD]

thoughts on hawk HPS pads? I wasn't really considering them but i can basically get a set free...

[daafisch]

I didn't like them at all. The stock pads are better IMO

[grantmm]

I use the HP+ pads because the stock pads fade too easily after repeated hard braking. These still fade, but only after many, many quick runs.

[Deldran]

Ebc yellow

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[grantmm]

Dave's braking needs are sorted. Just gifted a set of Hawk HP+ fronts that have a little over 50% life left.

[snailD]

anyone have suggestions on their favorite brake fluid or what to run? i've definitely boiled the stock stuff a few times... this isn't just for autocross but canyon runs too, i want something i can beat on

[grantmm]

I run motul RBF 600 from Rallysport

[phate]

My avatar pic was taken running valvoline synthetic. No boiling.

[daafisch]

I run Brembo LCF 600

[zenit]

Originally Posted by snailD anyone have suggestions on their favorite brake fluid or what to run? i've definitely boiled the stock stuff a few times... this isn't just for autocross but canyon runs too, i want something i can beat on

Dear god. What did you do to boil the fluid?
I run motorcraft fluid, but I've used everything from el cheapo auto-parts-store-special fluid to the cheaper name brands without issue.

In regards to the original question: What is the best "bang for buck"?

1)Tires - Sounds like you already have

2)Measurement & Recording devices - Makes your scant seat time more valuable

- I love autocross, but even if you're as crazy about it as @Deldran and do 80 runs in a year - you only get about 1.5 hour of time out on the course.
You want to make sure this time counts, and you want to maximize your potential learning curve.
Here are some ideas for possible measurement devices that won't break the bank and will help you out-

-tire pyrometer
-Go Pro
-Torque App/Track Recorder or equivalent
-External GPS recorder
-Ride alongs from and with people that are faster than you
-One or several of the autocross specific books

[Deldran]

It's not my fault @zenit; is a pansy and doesn't run as many runs as I do. Its ok your just jelly haha

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[phate]

You're both pansies. I did near 200 runs

[Deldran]

You did or the car did?

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[phate]

Originally Posted by Deldran You did or the car did? Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Car did near 200. I did over half of that

[Deldran]

I was gonna say you doing 200 was kinda high I knew the car did lol

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[snailD]

well the schedule came out and we have a shit load of events! going to be getting lots of seat time. thanks 4 the help so far

[grantmm]

Orrrrr... Just go out and have fun!

[sac02]

Originally Posted by grantmm I autocross with the front bar disconnected. Granted, for that to work you have to have stiff, stiff springs.

Dang, I asked this exact question (here) in the suspension forum, somehow I missed the auto-x forum completely. What spring rates are you running? What rear bar are you using?

I'm on 450fr/390rr, AST 4100's, and was wondering if disconnecting the fsb might help, while purchase of a RSB is on hold at the moment.

[phate]

Originally Posted by sac02 Dang, I asked this exact question (here) in the suspension forum, somehow I missed the auto-x forum completely. What spring rates are you running? What rear bar are you using? I'm on 450fr/390rr, AST 4100's, and was wondering if disconnecting the fsb might help, while purchase of a RSB is on hold at the moment.

How does the car behave? That should really guide your purchasing decisions.

[sac02]

Note: this is running a 10-12 psi pressure differential front to rear

I would describe it as:
Quick turn-in, but doesn't rotate at corner entry. Even with slower steering input, understeer is heavy at corner entry. Aggressive trailbraking is only able to produce very mild slip angles at the rear.
Moderate understeer during midcorner and corner exit.
Inner wheelspin at anything above say 0.4 or 0.5 lateral G, and more than 40% throttle

I know an RSB will significantly improve much of this, and is the "correct" and easy answer. But right now I'm budgeting my money elsewhere, so I was just wondering if disconnecting the FSB would make the car quicker or not (less understeer and better power-down at the expense of slower turn-in and transient response).

[grantmm]

Originally Posted by sac02 Dang, I asked this exact question (here) in the suspension forum, somehow I missed the auto-x forum completely. What spring rates are you running? What rear bar are you using? I'm on 450fr/390rr, AST 4100's, and was wondering if disconnecting the fsb might help, while purchase of a RSB is on hold at the moment.

I'm running AST 5220s and 600lb front and 800 lb rear. Also running the Tri-Point RSB (highly recommended) in full stiff and adjustable endlinks. This is the low end of what is "acceptable" for no front bar. It is still slightly wallowy during slaloms, but the traction in sweepers and corner exit is fantastic.

[sac02]

Originally Posted by grantmm I'm running AST 5220s and 600lb front and 800 lb rear. Also running the Tri-Point RSB (highly recommended) in full stiff and adjustable endlinks. This is the low end of what is "acceptable" for no front bar. It is still slightly wallowy during slaloms, but the traction in sweepers and corner exit is fantastic.

So you disconnect FSB, *and* run a stiff rear bar (I forgot to ask what bar you were using in the rear, thanks for mentioning it). Do you have the street or race TPE RSB? (0.188" or 0.250")

Is your car a DD, or at least regularly driven on the street?

If so, do you disconnect the FSB for events, or leave it disconnected always?

Does the car only auto-x, or do you do higher-speed events too? I might think that at higher speeds you would have too much oversteer with the springs and bar setup you've got going for auto-x(?)

[grantmm]

Originally Posted by sac02 So you disconnect FSB, *and* run a stiff rear bar (I forgot to ask what bar you were using in the rear, thanks for mentioning it). Do you have the street or race TPE RSB? (0.188" or 0.250") Is your car a DD, or at least regularly driven on the street? If so, do you disconnect the FSB for events, or leave it disconnected always? Does the car only auto-x, or do you do higher-speed events too? I might think that at higher speeds you would have too much oversteer with the springs and bar setup you've got going for auto-x(?)

The street bar. At 900 lbs, it is more than enough, when combined with the high spring rate, to get a good amount of rotation and improved turn in.

It is my DD, and I have done 4 trackdays at Miller Motorsports Park. I stay away from the high speed/high risk events because it is my only car. On those events, I set the RSB to soft to help counter the excess rotation. I'm just a guy having fun, so the big setup change questions are best directed at some of our resident pro drivers.

The bar is always disconnected, but it is still on the car. I should remove it to cut that weight, but I'm also lazy.

[sac02]

Cool, thanks for the info.

It looks like you're fine in stu, but for others that are reading, keep in mind that disconnecting a sway bar may be allowed as an "adjustment" but removal may not be, depending on class rules.

[snailD]

ok so here is my first autocross video, borrowed the gopro from 801ms3 since he isn't doing anything cool with it these days.

The good: i think i drove this pretty well, would like to hear opinions from some experienced guys. @phate; @grantmm; @zenit; @daafisch;

The Bad: it was raining all morning so i took off my r-comp tires because they dont do shit when its any type of wet out. THEN IT DRIED UP! lol. so i was on 225 direzza dz101's at the treadwear for this run. it really hurt me in the sweeper and last slalom as they started to push.

YouTube Short

YouTube Short

Edit: oh yea i ended up running a tripoint rear sway at 725 lbs, swift springs, camber -1.5 up front. +.05 toe, hawk hp+ pads with goodrich lines and replacement blank rotors.

[Crarrs]

Can't say that I saw anything wrong with that run beyond what you already observed yourself. Car looks fast!

[phate]

Run looks good. Nice and smooth. In slaloms, you can pick up tiny bits of time by doing the lift/gas routine to bring the back end around cones. It allows you to take a shallower/narrower line through the slalom, and it allows you to carry a little more speed through the entire thing than just staying steady state throttle. As soon as the back end starts to come around, get into the gas to transfer weight back, plant the rear, then accelerate to the next cone. Maybe throw in a little braking if the cones are far enough apart to get some speed back. [Note - this usually works for slaloms of 20+ paces for me; tighter than that and it's tough to get the rhythm going that quickly.] It takes some serious finesse with the timing, but the first time you do it you'll know it by the feel. It's effin awesome.

-1.5° camber up front doesn't seem like it's near enough. Is it heating the tires evenly?

PS - RComps are good unless there is standing water or it's really cold out.

[snailD]

Originally Posted by phate -1.5° camber up front doesn't seem like it's near enough. Is it heating the tires evenly? PS - RComps are good unless there is standing water or it's really cold out.

i'm on the stock struts and shit still so thats as much as i could possibly get up there.

it was like 50's today, struggled to get em hot in the morning and the ground was soaked but not free standing water. i went to the corner store with the r-comps on once (was lazy) and i was pushing going 1 mph at full lock with a wet surface so it scared me out of em today. i shoulda just manned up obviously lol.

i know what you mean on the slalom, the car was a complete different feel going from the r comps to these tires. since they dont heat up as much in the back the car has a happier tail than on the street tires. i kept my driving style abuot the same and the back end didnt move much at all as you can see. it felt very balanced tho so it was a bit easier to predict. i found myself doing some extra correcting mid corners on the r-comps. i had a second off my time from this run on them in the morning before it started to get bad, but i was all over the place and hit 2 cones. probably would have been 2 seconds down if i could put it together like this run.

[grantmm]

The first half looks very solid! Wish I could have been there for that event. The second half had some jittery early corrections and you over drove some spots, but all in all that was a great run!

I'd love to toss my Volks and Rivals on your car and doing a session or two co-driving if you're OK with that.

[daafisch]

Grant and Phate pretty much hit on what I noticed. Nice and smooth, good run.

What pressures where you running in the tires?

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[snailD]

So i got a set of 245 NT01 for autocross this year on my FD wheels and i had my first event today. It confirmed my belief that the used tires i was running last year were heat cycled too many times and offered no grip. I had to detach my tripping sway bar to keep the car from sliding. Today, with my sway bar on full stiff, i had a ton of confidence and a much easier to drive car!

Last year my best raw time was 36th, and today i got 24th. I was also off the leader of SMF consistently by 1-1.5 seconds. I came in second in SMF today losing only by .2! I'm extremely happy with the cars ability considering I'm no where near setup for this class.

out of 131 drivers today, pax put me in 43rd @grantmm;

[grantmm]

Maybe you could buy the ASTs...

[snailD]

Originally Posted by grantmm Maybe you could buy the ASTs...

Maybe i could have them? I definitely need more camber up front. Last years tires i blistered the sides apart, and after one session on these new tires i can see they are getting lots of stress there too, like right on the corner of the sidewall and tread. I was thinking of getting some camber plates but them I'm like should i just get coils. i don't really have the cash to do coils...

[snailD]

Had another event today, moving up! Pretty stoked to be in the top 20 in raw time, especially since there were 159 competitors.

Pax i ended up 32 out of 159.

Now its time to throw on @grantmm;'s old AST suspension and get shit done!

[grantmm]

This is going to be good. It's been almost 3 years since those coils have done a proper autocross. A track day or two, yes, but autocross has been sadly left out. A full SCCA membership cycle passed without being put to use once, awesome.

These should give you a big boost in handling. You'll have to relearn a bit though, so give it some time. Leave the suspension on full soft for a few events before you start making any adjustments so you know what you're dealing with. Only adjust one thing at a time *compression or rebound - preferably rebound* and give that change a chance to sink in before declaring that adjustment good or bad. Go for extremes in adjustment and then cut that extreme in half for the next adjustment so you can feel the change and its impact on your handling. Then cut that in half or go back to the original for comparison... But what do I know, I never adjusted the damn things off of full soft compression and 6 clicks or so rebound. I thought they were awesome at their softest setting and just went with it.

VERY happy to see these go to a great guy.

[snailD]

Finally have @grantmm; old AST suspension in my car for this weekends race

[snailD]

suspension guru's...

i installed the AST's and had my a race on them this weekend. i ended up doing ok but i really didn't have the car setup how i wanted. Basically i ran no front sway bar because i didn't have time to get the endlinks figured out, 450lb springs up front and 600 springs in the back. i'm running nt01 245 50 16 tires.

I was getting really bad rear end hopping which i have never gotten before on the stock suspension and swfit springs. i ended up disconnecting the rear sway bar and that helped, but i still got a small ammount of hopping in some corners but way down from where i started. the rear sway is a tripoint and it was on full stiff.

i have 2 weeks until next event. the front endlinks will be going in as the car in the slaloms was a bit slow. will that change the rear of the car at all? what should i look into? i was thinking of maybe putting the 600s in the rear also as the swift springs were equal front to rear and i enjoyed the handling stability on that setup

[Nliiitend1]

Don't change anything else until you get that front swaybar hooked up.

[brandon3212]

I have never liked the way the car handled with the FSB disconnected.

[redgenpu]

Agreed with Nintendo and brandon. Don't believe the hype about larger RSB. The FSB does much more than people give credit for. There's an old Grassroots Motorsports article about this. Set up your swaybars first and then dial in the spring rates. Whiteline swaybars are 27mm both front and back, and the assumption is they know more about suspension setup than most people on the forums. If you are hopping, maybe the car is rolling too much without the FSB and the hops are caused by tri-podding and touching down of the inside rear tire.