Is my internal wastegate broke?

[jiveturkey]

Hey guys, been trying to diagnose an overboost/boost cut issue for a week now. I have a 2006 MS6, and the only mod the motor has, is a test pipe. Still has the primary cat coverter.

What happens, is from 3rd gear and up, the car hits a wall at 4k RPM. I'm fairly new to these powerplants, so I have no way of pulling logs from lack of knowledge, so I performed basic turbo checkouts from the search:

1. Compression tested motor-Good.
2. Changed oil (irrelevant).
3. Changed plugs to NGK 6510's.
4. Performed boost leak test (good at first).
5. Cleaned MAF
6. Gapped the plugs at .28, then .25.
7. We are 5500 above sea level with 91 octane.

After these duties were performed, took the car out. No breakup whatsoever, however the car felt a little underpowered, and threw a CEL code. I didn't get a chance to pull the code as I got busy, and figured that the CEL came on because of the test pipe. Idle was around 700rpm at warmup, and was slightly rough.

Fast forward to Christmas weekend, I had some more time on my hands and decided to perform another boost leak test. And I was leaking just by a hair from the cam sensor on the valve cover. The little rubber o-ring had came apart. So I had a spare little rubber o-ring from the factory oil filter, and it fit on the sensor. Fired the car up and the idle was noticeably better, and the CEL light went off. I was surprised on how the most sensitive things trigger CEL lights with this powerplant.

So I took the car out for a drive and I definitely had more power. But again it started breaking up 3rd gear and up.

So fast forward today I started checking things out . I decided to check the wastegate. So first thing I do is pull the top vacuum line off that runs to the solenoid. I decided to compress some air into the diaphragm, and air just blew out everywhere it felt.

Thinking I may have a cracked diaphragm, I pull the bottom vacuum hose off, and compress air into the bottom port. Same thing air is blowing from somewhere under the diaphragm. I was thinking that the air should operate the shaft.


Next i grabbed my vacuum pump. Tried pulling vacuum from the top port, and bottom port, and nothing.

So then I tear things apart and pull the wastegate off. I finally get to see this hole by the bottom port of the wastegate:



All of the air that I have been compressing (90+psi) has been blowing through the hole by the bottom port. I thought that compressed air even at 15.6 psi should push the rod working the flapper?

I also want to mention that when I tried pressurizing both ports, I capped off the other end. Still the rod would not move.

Is my wastegate gonzo? Or is this how a wastegate is supposed to operate on these MS6 turbosystems?

Thanks for any help.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Could be fuel cut, I highly doubt your iwg is broken. Where are you located?

[jiveturkey]

Thanks Eric, I am located in Utah.

Wouldn't compressed air on either ports with the other capped off at the least move the rod?

[EdgeAutosport.com]

so this only happened after you put in the test pipe?

[jiveturkey]

I purchased the car and it had a test pipe on it. When it had the boost leak from the cam sensor, it went through the boost fine in all gears. Probably because of less boost I presume.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

yeah you should be able to pressurize that iwg like you have that picture and see the rod move in and out.

If you had something to log we could see what was going on even see what your wgdc is.

[jiveturkey]

I appreciate it it man, I have been on the search for 5+ hours the last few night learning all the terms, etc.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

I will go test my k04 tomorrow if I can find it and see what psi it takes to open the flapper and report back to this thread.

[sleepyspeed6]

Thas sucks man, on utahmazdas someone is selling a dashdaq for 320 brand new with the obdII cable. That way you can at least see whats going on

[jiveturkey]

Hey thanks guys. I will also make a small clip tomorrow testing the wastegate for reference.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

this was my problem with a atp iwg flapper getting stuck open. here is some reference on how I tested it, maybe this will help you out


ATP 1 Bar iwg turbos

[kmac]

If u pressurizethe wastegate with one port capped off and it doesn't move It's broken.

[Black Metal]

Come to the weekly PHO meet today if your in the SLC area and I'll take a look at your car and see if I can tell whats going on.

[jiveturkey]

Weekly Pho? MMM I appreciate the invite however my car is apart for this fix. I am off to the dealer in a few minutes to get a quote for the factory gate, otherwise looks like I may have to get a forge unit.

[MSMS3]

It's the waste gate actuator you're testing, not the wastegate itself. That is the actual flapper valve inside the impeller side of the turbo.

If you put 90+ psi compressed air through a hose to one port or nipple on wastegate actuator with the other of the two nipples closed, you may have ruptured the diaphragm. Hopefully, that high pressure was only being used when you still had the big port connected to the turbo compressor so the compressed air was being vented back though the big line and the small oriface pill in the turbo compressor nipple.

Try bench testing the actuator since you now have it off of the car. Plug one of the nipples. Doesn't matter which one for this test. You can just hold your finger over it. Then use a REGULATED compressed air source to the hose on the other nipple -- no more than the max the turbo might produce, say 20 or 25 psi max. It should hold pressure and not vent through that hole in the bottom. The rod should move. Releasing pressure should cause the rod snap back smartly with a loud click. Putting your finger back over the open port should cause another loud click and the rod to extend again.

If it does move, would you please measure the distance of the movement and tell me what you come up with. I have a separate thread about four below you right now trying to find out what the spec should be for rod movement at max boost. I'm seeing .245" and wondering if that is normal.

I'm running on wastegate spring pressure and trying to resolve the issue. Let's trade notes and maybe others can chime in here.

[jiveturkey]

Hey MSMS3, thanks for correcting me on the part indeed it is the actuator. I have compressed air into the port and plugged off the bottom port with no luck moving the rod.

I suppose that is why there is a hole at the bottom of the diaphragm to leak excess boost? Anyhow the air leaks from the bottom of the diaphragm as well as the hole on the bottom.

FWIW, I pulled the rod out to try and measure distance, and I know it's not the same because the true distance can only be measured with a good operating unit that holds boost, but I pulled the rod and the most the spring would allow me to pull was approximately a half an inch if that helps.

Just called the dealer and they cannot sell the actuator separately unless you buy the whole turbo

Anyone know of any other turboshop source that may carry these actuators in stock? The forge piece is nice, but trust me even with my ladylike hands its a motherfudger getting behind that turbo to make any adjustments, etc.

[MSMS3]

If you have to go with the Forge product (which I may if my testing protocols end up establishing that the actuator arm freezes in extended position), then take note that you should be able to get the length exactly right by measurement.

Measure the distance between the flat part of the wastegate actuator flange, where it bolts to the turbo, and the center of the eye of the rod. You'll need some calipers, preferably with a digital or dial indicator read out in thousandths of an inch.

You can then adjust the rod on the Forge unit so the same distance matches up exactly, or to within one turn of the adjustment and then lock it down.

Back to your actuator: From your reply, I'm not sure if you said that you could pressurize the diaphragm with 20-25 psi of compressed air by holding your finger over the other port. Can you? If it will hold pressure with your finger over the other port, the diaphragm is still o.k. If not, then, yes, the diaphragm is shot and you'll need a new one. If it holds pressure but the rod does not move, consider putting a drop or two of synthetic oil in the hole where the actuator rod enters the actuator body and working it back and forth a bit to see if it frees up, then repeat the pressure test. Be sure to use a synthetic oil, as that is not as likely to damage the diaphragm, which might be rubber that could be harmed by dino oil.

Remember that the rod moves progressively outward with pressure. You will see no movement at all under pressure, or only a tiny bit until spring pressure is overcome at around 10 psi, then increasing degree of movement as pressure rises above that point until it is fully extended at higher pressure, perhaps above 18-20 psi. If no movement, it's toast.

Before you spring for a new Forge actuator, check with Mazda again and pretend you have a CX-7 - they use the same actuator. Maybe they will have one that way? IIRC, someone said that they are available that way but that Mazda is mighty proud of them, something like $400 compared to the nice billet unit from Forge for less than half that. But availability of a new stock actuator is just a rumor I recall reading from some other thread here or elsewhere. Also the Forge only has one port, so you have to use a splitter so you can connect both lines. Both lines must be active. I think that comes with the Forge.

Finally, maybe post here as a "want to buy" ad and see if if you can pick up one. cheap. Guys are letting go of smoking turbos, probably with the actuator installed very cheaply. Maybe someone with a blown, cracked turbo would part out the actuator for you. I may be shooting myself in the foot by suggesting that, as I may be looking for one too, although I'm inclined to think mine is o.k.

Good luck.

[jiveturkey]

Hey MSMS3, when I have either ports of the diaphragm capped off, air still blows out from the hole on the lower side of the diaphragm, or will just completely blow air out from the bottom of the diaphragm.

I am not sure if 90+psi of pressure from my air compressor was enough to damage the bladder of the actuator as I have been having erratic boost issues beforehand. But here is a short cellphone clip:

Mazdaspeed 6 wastegate actuator testing - YouTube

Mazdaspeed 6 wastegate actuator testing - YouTube

[MSMS3]

Pretty good video for a celllphone. Looks to me like you need to be replacing the actuator. It is clearly leaking and probably has a blown or torn diaphragm. Hopefully that is your only problem. But you could have damaged it during testing if 90 psi went against the diaphragm bladder.

I'm pretty sure I have other problems and continue to chase them. I'll be retesting for boost leaks just to be sure I didn't miss anything. But I'm beginning to have a sinking feeling that there is a leak inside the turbo itself unless someone comes up with something else.

I'm going to just wire the wastegate completely shut and see if it builds boost. If not, its new turbo time, I'm afraid.

[jiveturkey]

So my original plan was to get a forge wastegate actuator, and it looks like all vendors are out of them, and forge says they are about twoish weeks out on new units. I went to ebay and found some chinese company who makes universal adjustable actuators for $40 bucks. I figured it couldn't hurt trying this until the forge units are available again.

The ebay actuator has a bracket that is larger than the factory, but the bolt hole pattern was slightly simliar. And You could actually drill a hole on the bottom side of the bracket to make a perfect fit. But I didn't and it all performed well. This unit has a 7-10lb spring. The first thing I did was pressure test it. No leaking from the diaphragm

Upon arrival, here is a comparison of the two:




After physically comparing them, I noticed the end of the rod was thicker:



So off to the grinder it went!





Kay, much better:

[jiveturkey]

After that I lined up the top hole of the bracket and bolted it down. It is tight enough without the lower bracket hole being bolted down that it won't move up or down. I got the rod adjusted by simply twisting it to tighten or undo the length. E-clipped it on, and took it for a drive. Immediately the boost ramps to 15 psi and tapers down to 10 psi. My engine is bone stock with just a 2nd cat delete pipe. No tune, no access port. More importantly no more overboosting/boost cut/fuel cut.

Only thing I've got to do is grind down a little on the heat shield because it rubs just a tad on the rod.

Anyhow even though it is an ebay part, the quality can't be any worse than the factory actuator. Plus the dealer does not sell the actuator separately. They want you to get the entire turbo setup.

Here is the information if anyone is in the same bind I was, and need an actuator.

mpgstore@gmail.com

T3 T4 Universal Turbo Wastegate Actuator 45D 10psi 3"RM 106523451471

[bmylez]

Nice find. In my opinion, the Forge wga is overpriced. If you want a quality part, I'd look into a Garrett wga from ATP. You can find one for about $80 there.

I personally would like to find a way to get 2 bolts on the wga, but that's pretty cool that it's working so well. The real test will come if you ever decide to get full 3" exhaust and try to run 17psi to red line, heh.

After-thought: How did you hook up your boost lines? You ran a line from the nipple on the compressor to a tee fitting, then ran a line to the wga, and from the other part of the tee fitting, you ran a line to the boost control solenoid, right?

[jiveturkey]

Originally Posted by bmylez Nice find. In my opinion, the Forge wga is overpriced. If you want a quality part, I'd look into a Garrett wga from ATP. You can find one for about $80 there. After-thought: How did you hook up your boost lines? You ran a line from the nipple on the compressor to a tee fitting, then ran a line to the wga, and from the other part of the tee fitting, you ran a line to the boost control solenoid, right?

Yes that is how I ran the lines. One thing I had to do was remove the head shield that covers the rod, and grind the area that surrounds the rod about a half inch deeper. I just used my wheel grinder as the grinding disks fit perfectly in the slot of the heat shield if that makes sense.

But I did extensive research on that ATP wastegate actuator. I couldn't find part numbers, and found some actuators that work with the protoge. I ended up overnighting this actuator and could have got the ATP unit for the same price Anyhow So far so good!

[MSMS3]

Great news. Glad to see you made the right diagnosis and that the knock-off is working so well. At what rpm are you tapering to 10 psi? You should be holding higher than that at 6,000, even on stock tune, more like 13.

[IshiKage]

how much pressure did the ebay wg hold

[jiveturkey]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Great news. Glad to see you made the right diagnosis and that the knock-off is working so well. At what rpm are you tapering to 10 psi? You should be holding higher than that at 6,000, even on stock tune, more like 13.

Yes. I took the car out again this time, with the heat shield grinded down, and now I am hitting a hair just under 15lbs peak, and drop to about 12-13lbs after 6k rpm (i'll lift almost immediately). When the rod was rubbing against the heat shield it wasn't allowing it to retract as it should.

[MSMS3]

If you are on stock tune that sounds just about right.

[summerblink]

Originally Posted by bmylez After-thought: How did you hook up your boost lines? You ran a line from the nipple on the compressor to a tee fitting, then ran a line to the wga, and from the other part of the tee fitting, you ran a line to the boost control solenoid, right?

JiveT: could you please elaborate that setup a bit (maybe with a picture even), cuz I just
ordered an actuator from the same seller and will be installing it soon.

Just for the info: i've been having exactly same kind of issues you described and checked
the actuator: it didn't move well and I had to grease it. Logs showed that
WGDC didn't follow imap&load at all, but after greasing seems to be better.

The actuator arm was rusty as hell, but I guess that's the price driving a Mazda in Finland

[akspeed6]

Hi guys ,im in alaska and having kinda the same problem. I have an 07 ms6 and im peaking out at 10 11 psi and leveling out at 9. By everything ive read and speaking to the fellas at street unit, I ended up purchasing a turbosmart waste gate. Question is the nipple on top of the wg has only 1 side to go to the turbo. Anyone know what to do with the line that suppose to go to the sensor. thx