Dale's meth injection fun - pre vs. post TB and dual vs. single nozzle

[torquemaniac]

Dont know where the MAP sensor is located on the Corksport manifold, but it could be the meth pooling around the MAP sensor at idle (the meth that is pulled form the line under vac)

[torquemaniac]

I have no idea of the space constraint you have, but a setup like this would reduce the meth volume being pulled under vac to the minimum (without resorting to check-valve on each nozzle)



I could fabricate this for free if you want to try it out

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by torquemaniac I have no idea of the space constraint you have, but a setup like this would reduce the meth volume being pulled under vac to the minimum (without resorting to check-valve on each nozzle) I could fabricate this for free if you want to try it out

Thanks for the offer! I like the idea. The nozzles don't have the push-line inlets; they are 1/8-27" NPT. I would have to find a quite short 1/8-27" female to push-line fittings.

I did go with the per nozzle check valve for the time being. However, I would be open to the fab if you wanted to design it up!



I'm stuck on trying to move forward until I get my new MAP sensor. My car ran flawlessly for years on a pre-TB setup, so if I have any more weird issues come up, I may dump the port injection setup.

Originally Posted by torquemaniac Dont know where the MAP sensor is located on the Corksport manifold, but it could be the meth pooling around the MAP sensor at idle (the meth that is pulled form the line under vac)

The MAP sensor is sitting on the side away from the floor of the IM; it's pretty much in the stock location.

[dale_gribble]

With the check valves in place, I'm still getting 2-4kr in the 4.5-5k range after a quick downshift + WOT. It happens about 30-40% of the time, the rest of the time the pulls are clean. I can't deduce if it's from the new setup or not TBH. I don't remember seeing this before with the PRE-TB only. Maybe it did this and I just didn't pay enough attention.

So, the check valves didn't do anything to change that aspect.

I'm running the much tighter shift timing from @ms3blackmica; so, in going from 6th-4th WOT, the Shift Timer delay goes from stock values (5-15ms) to 0ms with the new values. I didn't really have shift studder before, so I think I'll drop back to stock there and see if anything changes.

[dale_gribble]

Another thing I see that has changed from the multi port injection is that the AFRs have consistently flattened out.

[dale_gribble]

I put on a stock MAP sensor and noticed that the multi port injection is spraying enough on the MAP sensor to 'freeze' it basically. The MAP temp sensor stops responding for a while as the meth and water evaporate from the sensor and it takes a few minutes for it to stabilize and report normally again. So, I suspect that this configuration could take out another MAP sensor with enough exposure. The MAP sensor would almost need to be baffled so it didn't get direct spray from the nozzles. I might look at shielding the probe a little bit.

I would certainly see temps dip with the single Pre-TB nozzle, but it wouldn't stop responding for a while like this setup. I ran Pre-TB since 2013 without seeing this condition.

[torquemaniac]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Thanks for the offer! I like the idea. The nozzles don't have the push-line inlets; they are 1/8-27" NPT. I would have to find a quite short 1/8-27" female to push-line fittings. I did go with the per nozzle check valve for the time being. However, I would be open to the fab if you wanted to design it up!

The best option is that you make a sketch with the exact dimension, otherwise you can give me some measurements and I will come up with something (dont forget to take some measurements to integrate the bracket on the meth manifold...)

The female push-to-connect fitting could be a problem (McMaster-Carr have a bunch of those, but I cant garantee they are meth compatible...this why I went with the Aquamist compression fitting)...I will see if I can find something

[dale_gribble]

Thanks for the offer. I think at this point I am very close to pulling the plug on this project. I am going to run more tests/evaluation over the next few days. If something doesn't come back beneficial then I am going to pull the multi-port setup and go back to the single pre-tb nozzle.

If I can't 1) get the transition kr under control and 2) get the frozen map sensor figured out, the setup is coming out.

[dale_gribble]

OK well my multi port meth injection experiment is over. I found out why the bats were low at idle and I'm retarded. I bought brand fucking new snow check valves/nozzle holders right? Well, out of the box one check valve wasn't working and I was too stupid to test them first. So, meth was siphoning into the IM through one of the valves/nozzles under vacuum. It wasn't enough to fill the IM and hydrolock since it wasn't pumping, but I'm sure it pooled at the bottom of the IM pretty good.

This setup has been garbage since I've tried to get it going and it has caused me nothing but problems. I could do a solenoid and keep fighting through it, but there really isn't a point. In the end performance was comparable to pre TB nozzle.

So, back to a single D07 pre-tb.

So what have we learned folks? Pre-tb is the best location for simplicity and performance vs. a throttle plate adapter or multi port injection. It's that easy.

[neganox]

snoweatspenises.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, here is my interaction with SNOW's repair/sales so far. Not good. First, they didn't address the bad check valve in any way and went on to tell me to get a solenoid. Typically, as a customer I don't want you to tell me to buy something else to remedy a piece of shit you sold to me.

ME

I placed an order for 5 of your 82204 Check Valve/Nozzle Holders on 3/31/2016 from Summit Racing (Order 722xxxx) for $30/ea. I STUPIDLY expected your check valves to work and I installed them without testing them in my direct port injection manifold setup (picture attached). Each nozzle had a check valve, including another nozzle/check valve pre-throttle body. A day after the install, I noticed my manifold temps were cold and not warming up, and then I noticed my meth tank was emptying quickly. I ran the car last night to troubleshoot and found out that one of the brand new check valves was not working and siphoning water/meth into the intake manifold. I am very lucky that it wasn't enough to cause any major problems. What am I supposed to do here, and how am I supposed to trust your check valves in an installation that can cause catastrophic failure after this out of box failure?

Snow reply

Do you have a solenoid inline between the pump and the distribution block?

My reply

No I do not have a solenoid installed.

Snow reply

I would recommend installing one so this doesn't happen again and you have peace of mind about your system.

My reply

Ok, I understand the recommendation. Your solution is to get another device in place because I can't trust your check valves. FYI, if this is the case, then it would be good to note on your website not to trust your check valves because they may leak causing engine damage. There is still an issue about the broken check valve to which you haven't offered a solution besides to buy something else? Please address that. Should I send you back the bad check valve/nozzle holder and you send me a solenoid then?

We'll see what the reply is. I am not too impressed thus far.

[neganox]

Oh so now Snow recommends a solenoid between the nozzle and the pump. My how the times have changed.

[dale_gribble]

Snow has gone radio silent on me since my last email. That's some quality customer care right there.

[MD1032]

Wow, now that's some genuinely shitty customer service. Granted you were a little hostile in your initial e-mail, but their product did basically almost hydrolock your engine so it's not a minor incident.

I ran into a similar situation recently with siliconeintakes.com (it's documented on MSO, not here). One of their lines going to my wastegate failed in two places after an autocross event, causing my engine to briefly experience effectively 100% WGDC on a BNR S3 at 4000 RPM. (textbook example for why you should use the load-based fuel cut tables IMO).

Their response was basically, "sorry, we don't do any racing with our tubing and we don't know what to recommend...have a good day asshole"

[dale_gribble]

Ugggh, racecars, amiright?

[sheston]

It's not just snow. My DO came with a valve that wasn't functioning. They wanted me to pay to send it back so they could test it. I guess they didn't believe I would know if it worked or not.

Stupid me, I bought another one from them and a T-connector. T leaked like a sieve. Lucky to not burn my engine down

[torquemaniac]

Aquamist has awesome customer service...ordered some fitting and nozzles from them recently for my direct port setup, and one of the fitting was not the right one...Richard sent the right fitting the same day at no cost...he even supplied a while ago some prototype compression elbow fitting to try on my post-throttle injection setup at no charge

[dale_gribble]

No resolution offered from Snow yet. They asked for Summit Racing invoice.

[dale_gribble]

Ok, I tried to email snow today, and my emails came back rejected from warranty@snowperformance.net and sales@snowperformance.net as marked as spam by the recipient domain snowperformance.net

So, they flagged me as spam.

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently: warranty@snowperformance.net Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain snowperformance.net by smtp.secureserver.net. [72.167.238.29]. The error that the other server returned was: 552 5.2.0 fBGm1s00K3nMc7l01 - fBGm1s00K3nMc7l01BGmeq This message has been rejected due to content judged to be spam by the internet community IB212 - If you feel this is in error, please submit a request using the following page. <https://checkspam.secureserver.net/?sid=fBGm1s00K3nMc7l01&mid=fBGm1s00K3nMc7l01BGmeq>

[MS3Shadow]

That's cold.

They literally blocked you from getting support from them. That is unprofessional.

sent from my Nexus 6P

[dale_gribble]

I called summit and explained. They said I could return all of the nozzle holders. So, it's either take the easy road or start putting a mob together for social justice.

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by MD1032 Wow, now that's some genuinely shitty customer service. Granted you were a little hostile in your initial e-mail, but their product did basically almost hydrolock your engine so it's not a minor incident. I ran into a similar situation recently with siliconeintakes.com (it's documented on MSO, not here). One of their lines going to my wastegate failed in two places after an autocross event, causing my engine to briefly experience effectively 100% WGDC on a BNR S3 at 4000 RPM. (textbook example for why you should use the load-based fuel cut tables IMO). Their response was basically, "sorry, we don't do any racing with our tubing and we don't know what to recommend...have a good day asshole"

What is MSO?

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble I called summit and explained. They said I could return all of the nozzle holders. So, it's either take the easy road or start putting a mob together for social justice.

Why not both?

sent from my Nexus 6P

[dale_gribble]

Guys, I need you to help me think through this. Snow did contact me and denied my warranty claim.

The check valve works the other way. It keeps air and fuel from getting into the methanol line from the motor. For anti siphoning purposes you need to install a solenoid.

Their explanation is poor, but after reading about theory on check valves, I think I understand how they work better.

A check valve allows flow in one direction and automatically prevents back flow (reverse flow) when fluid in the line reverses direction. They are one of the few self-automated valves that do not require assistance to open and close.

Many meth injection manufacturers advertise that their check valves do not siphon under vacuum. However, check valves in theory aren't designed to not leak when closed without reverse line pressure; they are just designed to prevent reverse flow.

Internal sealing of the check valve disc and seat relies on “reverse” line pressure as opposed to the mechanical force used for on/off valves. Because of this, allowable seat leakage rates are greater for check valves than with on/off valves. In other words, the check valve may be expected to have a seal leakage rate.

So, guys, again I guess I am learning the hard way.

To me, this pretty much states that check valves are worthless for meth injection systems. They can't even be expected to hold a line prime as often advertised. They just prevent reverse flow.

Now, some check valves may not leak and some of mine don't when I test them, but I guess that isn't a guarantee by design.

TL;DR: Solenoids ONLY for meth injection systems.

[Cdnspeed6]

Man that sucks the shit you're having to deal with, I ordered myself a Nx water meth solenoid from summit the other day. I just don't ever want to deal with a hydrolocked motor because a cheap chinese part fails

[radbrad]

That makes a lot of sense. I guess the way meth injection vendors write the copy for the check vales leads me to assume they are a quality way to stop unintended flow.

And we all know what assuming leads too...

Thanks dale for your research and data. Always a worthy read.

[dale_gribble]

So much of my strife in these experiments comes from bullshit vendor claims and assuming they know what they are talking about.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Guys, I need you to help me think through this. Snow did contact me and denied my warranty claim. Their explanation is poor, but after reading about theory on check valves, I think I understand how they work better. A check valve allows flow in one direction and automatically prevents back flow (reverse flow) when fluid in the line reverses direction. They are one of the few self-automated valves that do not require assistance to open and close. Many meth injection manufacturers advertise that their check valves do not siphon under vacuum. However, check valves in theory aren't designed to not leak when closed without reverse line pressure; they are just designed to prevent reverse flow. Internal sealing of the check valve disc and seat relies on “reverse” line pressure as opposed to the mechanical force used for on/off valves. Because of this, allowable seat leakage rates are greater for check valves than with on/off valves. In other words, the check valve may be expected to have a seal leakage rate. So, guys, again I guess I am learning the hard way. To me, this pretty much states that check valves are worthless for meth injection systems. They can't even be expected to hold a line prime as often advertised. They just prevent reverse flow. Now, some check valves may not leak and some of mine don't when I test them, but I guess that isn't a guarantee by design. TL;DR: Solenoids ONLY for meth injection systems.

Correct. When I was setting up my own meth system (still not installed BTW...I suck), the subject of check valve vs. solenoid came up and I was confused because check valves by definition are not designed to shut off flow, only to allow it to only flow in one direction. I found out that people were getting away with it because manufacturers like DO were actually producing check valves that were spring-loaded, therefore they're actually in theory a combination check valve and pressure relief valve.

Personally I chose to only use a solenoid for myself in my setup.

[sheston]

^^ What he said. @MD1032; I have the DOs and they have a crack pressure (spring )that you have to overcome. I thought they were all like that?

[dale_gribble]

There are different designs and different marketing lingo.

Devil's Own Check valve- makes 0 mention of priming or anti-siphoning. The product page just states that it's a check valve and doesn't make any claims: Methanol Injection Check Valve

Snow Performance Check valve page states "Nozzle Holder/Internal Check Valve design to eliminate all anti reversion and to ensure constant prime for instant injection". Based on their own reply to me, that is total BS. If the unit can't prevent siphoning then it can't hold a prime. Water Meth Nozzle | Methanol Nozzle | Snow Performance

Cooling mist- States that their check valve is a "one way design prevents vacuum from opening the valve". Checkvalve with integrated filter

Aquamist advertises check valves that are made for direct port application --- 806-501A to 806-528C --- Checkvalve jet for 4mm hose (qty. discount). Designed specially for Direct-port applications - aquamist-direct.com

[Cdnspeed6]

Just curious do youbhave your pump mounted next to your tank or do you have you tank in the trunk and pumpnunder the hood? I'm chasing an erratic flow rate

[dale_gribble]

You need to have the tank and lines gravity feed the pump. The pump doesn't suck. The tank and lines have to be higher than the pump.

[neganox]

So SNOW says the check valves are to prevent air from getting into the lines? How would air force it's way INTO a methanol nozzle while the system is under vacuum?

#snoweatspenises

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble OK well my multi port meth injection experiment is over. I found out why the bats were low at idle and I'm retarded. I bought brand fucking new snow check valves/nozzle holders right? Well, out of the box one check valve wasn't working and I was too stupid to test them first. So, meth was siphoning into the IM through one of the valves/nozzles under vacuum. It wasn't enough to fill the IM and hydrolock since it wasn't pumping, but I'm sure it pooled at the bottom of the IM pretty good. This setup has been garbage since I've tried to get it going and it has caused me nothing but problems. I could do a solenoid and keep fighting through it, but there really isn't a point. In the end performance was comparable to pre TB nozzle. So, back to a single D07 pre-tb. So what have we learned folks? Pre-tb is the best location for simplicity and performance vs. a throttle plate adapter or multi port injection. It's that easy.

Thank you for suffering through this, I have a 2006 MS6 cold pipe that I threaded with a D07, thinking that is still the best.

[mize13]

I've had nozzles in the OEM cold pipe for going on two years. No problems. A good foot or more of meth line between nozzles and solenoid. On both k04 and 2867. Driving hard on Dragon and casual around city.

[broda]

Do we need 90° nozzle adapters for clearance issues or no? I ordered a WMI kit yesterday and I just wanted to know if I needed to order one or not.

[Boost_creep]

Originally Posted by neganox So SNOW says the check valves are to prevent air from getting into the lines? How would air force it's way INTO a methanol nozzle while the system is under vacuum? #snoweatspenises

It wouldn't. But it could under boost.

[Yatta]

Originally Posted by Boost_creep It wouldn't. But it could under boost.

Only way I could imagine that is if you had boost on the nozzle(s) without the pump on, or, the boost pressure exceeding the 100-200 PSI that the pumps are running at... seems to me that they are selling these valves because they can and not because they should... the DO check valves apparently don’t all open at the same crack pressure, another reason I planned on staying pre-TB with one nozzle. I suspect a solenoid and/or pressure/check valve would be ok for a single nozzle but would definitely want solenoids for multi-port... which leads me to think a fuel injector rail with injectors might do this better... (but would be costly).

[neganox]

Originally Posted by Boost_creep It wouldn't. But it could under boost.

Maybe, but I wonder why they include the checkvalve nozzle holder in their NA muscle car kits then.

Stage 2 Muscle Car Water Injection | Snow Performance

#snoweatspenises

[Boost_creep]

Originally Posted by neganox Maybe, but I wonder why they include the checkvalve nozzle holder in their NA muscle car kits then. Stage 2 Muscle Car Water Injection | Snow Performance #snoweatspenises

Less sku's and simplicity would be my guess. I believe the nozzle holder with check valve replaced their old nozzle holder.

And about the pump running while in boost, that is not always the case. If you have your start set point set to 12 psi, then you would be pushing the meth out of the lines before the pump turned on. Or if the system was turned off temporarily.