Pre-turbo methanol injection

[KoukiS14]

I'm working on a pre-turbo methanol injection setup for my little stock turbo that I should have done within the next couple of months. The general consensus about spraying pre-turbo is that it increases the efficiency of the turbo so that's it's good for additional boost and further reduced BATs.

Most of the controversy seems to revolve around compressor wheel erosion, but stock turbos are so inexpensive, I'm not at all worried about the potential for having to replace one eventually. I've already got a spare ready to go. Also, if done properly, with the nozzle on axis with the shaft, and directly in front of the wheel, erosion is negligible to nearly non-existent.

I'll be swapping my manifold-mounted D05 nozzle for a D03 and using an AquaMist .3mm nozzle, which is equivalent to an D02 nozzle, before the turbo. Total spray volume should be the same, just injection location will be different. If it works well enough, I may even ditch the stock intercooler entirely. I'm thinking that I may be able to daily drive with 22 to 24 psi on the stock turbo with this setup. SST turbo guys should be able to push even higher.

The nozzle holder looks like this:



Here's my favorite article on pre-turbo injection.

Here's the place making my nozzle holder for me.

Here are the dimensions of the stock turbo inlet.

What do you guys think?

[aaronc7]

interested to see some pics and results. spraying pre turbo has always looked interesting to me, but scared to try it b/c i wasnt sure how fast it would ruin the turbo.

[bioevolve]

If no IC:
About 17psi on the K04 turbo pumps out about 350* air temps. Meth/Water is good for about upto 100* temp drop only when it's spraying.
WOT you will have 350* air going into the engine lol.

With IC:
I have the same fear of the turbo damage, but the idea is sound. AT WOT turbo air temps should be around 350* around 17psi. Spraying into the turbo should atleast be knocked down to about 250*. Then run thru the IC, drop of another 100*-150* (depends on type of IC). Second Meth/Water sprays another whatever to below ambient temps.


But you will find out what the theory versus reality will truely be. I'm hoping the air temp out of the turbo will be more than 100* drop, 200*+ drop would be awsome and I would be following your foot steps lol.

[clos561]

so your saying your not even gona have a ic?

[gsrtype1]

I heard you get a little additional boost spraying pre-turbo like when its colder out.

[aaronc7]

do you think it would be better to have the nozzle a bit further away from the turbo? more time to atomize and mix with the air? or do you think that is fine?

[superskaterxes]

hmm ive always wondered about this but u have to remember theres a trade off here.

when using a 50/50 mix, the closer you are to the valves the more of the octane boost your gona get but u will also suffer come cooling efficiency because the air doesent have time to cool down.

if u spray where your gona spray i think u will have great cooling but octane might suffer a little.

if u do ditch the IC r u gona go for a pipe straight from the turbo outlet to the TB?

Originally Posted by bioevolve If no IC: About 17psi on the K04 turbo pumps out about 350* air temps. Meth/Water is good for about upto 100* temp drop only when it's spraying. Cruize and Idle, you will have 350* air going into the engine lol. At WOT 250* air. With IC: I have the same fear of the turbo damage, but the idea is sound. Turbo air temps should be around 350* around 17psi. Spraying into the turbo should atleast be knocked down to about 250*. Then run thru the IC, drop of another 100*-150* (depends on type of IC). Second Meth/Water sprays another whatever to below ambient temps. But you will find out what the theory versus reality will truely be. I'm hoping the air temp out of the turbo will be more than 100* drop, 200*+ drop would be awsome and I would be following your foot steps lol.

i have a very hard time believing the outlet temps are ~350. i ran the stock turbo at 23psi for months and i never saw more then 15* above ambient while cruising and pulls were always @ ambient or below with the meth. that means that my IC would have 100% efficiency and thats just not possible. people have this insane idea that our little turbo turns into a hair dryer at high psi but its simply not true its just flow restricted.

[bioevolve]

My bad, WOT is 350* lol. Gotta change that.


I guess Meth won't be sprayed pre-turbo, 100% Meth has a flash point of 54*.
10% Meth and 90% water has a 130* flash point. So it would have to either 100% water or a seperate tank of water for pre-turbo.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes hmm ive always wondered about this but u have to remember theres a trade off here. when using a 50/50 mix, the closer you are to the valves the more of the octane boost your gona get but u will also suffer come cooling efficiency because the air doesent have time to cool down. if u spray where your gona spray i think u will have great cooling but octane might suffer a little. if u do ditch the IC r u gona go for a pipe straight from the turbo outlet to the TB? i have a very hard time believing the outlet temps are ~350. i ran the stock turbo at 23psi for months and i never saw more then 15* above ambient while cruising and pulls were always @ ambient or below with the meth. that means that my IC would have 100% efficiency and thats just not possible. people have this insane idea that our little turbo turns into a hair dryer at high psi but its simply not true its just flow restricted.

I did dyno pulls (WOT) with a temp sensors in the hot side and cold side of the L/A IC to see how much it dropped the temps by.
Hot side was 354* from turbo to the IC At 17psi.
Cold side was 160* from IC to TB at 17psi.

Shop AMB was 93*
Next time I go, I will get idle and cruise temps of both sides.

HEY superskaterxes are you using the PTP IM gasket?!?!?!?! Hence your 15* above ambient?!?!?!

Originally Posted by aaronc7 i would still run a nozzle at the throttle body area. like a 3gph by TB, and 1gph pre turbo. you can buy a simple Y splitter type thing, the pumps are high enough pressure it should be fine

Here's mines:

[aaronc7]

i would still run a nozzle at the throttle body area. like a 3gph by TB, and 1gph pre turbo. you can buy a simple Y splitter type thing, the pumps are high enough pressure it should be fine

[djuosnteisn]

Looks rad adam, haha radam. Lemme know how well it works. Also where/how do you plan to route the tubing into the TIP?

[bioevolve]

A double ended nipple, one outside and one inside to attach to the sprayer nozzle maybe?

[djuosnteisn]

Would work i guess. It would be nice to have zero "free parts" that could come loose and lodge in the compressor. Like maybe running a single tube out through a compression fitting (to serve as an air lock). That way you don't have to tie wrap or hose clamp (free parts) the tube onto the inside nipple.

[KoukiS14]

Originally Posted by clos561 so your saying your not even gona have a ic?

Maybe. A lot of people spraying pre-turbo have ditched their intercooler because it didn't contribute to charge air temperature reduction anymore. If that's true, pre-turbo spray must be awesome at dropping the temps down.

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 I heard you get a little additional boost spraying pre-turbo like when its colder out.

Supposedly just the spray alone, whether cold or hot out, will increase boost by 2 psi or more. Not sure how that works, other than it increases the density of the air by cooling it.

Originally Posted by aaronc7 do you think it would be better to have the nozzle a bit further away from the turbo? more time to atomize and mix with the air? or do you think that is fine?

Nope, you want to avoid that because it's the single, and essentially only, cause of blade erosion, due to vapor condensing on the TIP walls and running down and striking the blade ends. With a small nozzle at high pressure, the atomization is under 20 microns.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if u spray where your gona spray i think u will have great cooling but octane might suffer a little. if u do ditch the IC r u gona go for a pipe straight from the turbo outlet to the TB?

Remember, I'm going to spray both pre-turbo and in the existing manifold location. I hope to get the full benefits of both.

Yeah, if I ditch the intercooler, I'll probably do a 3" piece of stainless from turbo to TB.

Originally Posted by aaronc7 i would still run a nozzle at the throttle body area. like a 3gph by TB, and 1gph pre turbo. you can buy a simple Y splitter type thing, the pumps are high enough pressure it should be fine

I have a PTP freeze plug nozzle holder that has a D05 already. I'm just reducing it to a D03 and adding a D02 before the turbo. Both will be controlled with my existing LaBonte controller. I might use a Hobbs switch so that the pre-turbo solenoid doesn't activate until higher boost, like 16 psi or so, but I'm not sure about that setup yet.

Originally Posted by bioevolve I guess Meth won't be sprayed pre-turbo, 100% Meth has a flash point of 54*. 10% Meth and 90% water has a 130* flash point. So it would have to either 100% water or a seperate tank of water for pre-turbo. Next time I go, I will get idle and cruise temps of both sides.

I'll be spraying 50/50 at both points, and it shouldn't be anywhere near the flash ignition point inside of the turbo. It's been done before, and no one has blown up yet.

Please do take a log of post turbo cruise BATs. That may help me decide whether I'll keep the intercooler or not.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Also where/how do you plan to route the tubing into the TIP?

I may simply pierce the 90* silicone coupler on my custom TIP, and silicone it up. The AquaMist tubing is just over 1/8", so it's not a huge hole. It's either that or pierce the stainless tubing and silicone it up. Something simple and effective.

Originally Posted by bioevolve A double ended nipple, one outside and one inside to attach to the sprayer nozzle maybe?

I've thought about that too, but I want to keep flow obstructions to a minimum.

[djuosnteisn]

Hmmm, if indeed you do ditch the intercooler all together, it would be a prime oppertunity to try tuning for blow thru maf on that 3" cold pipe.

[KoukiS14]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Hmmm, if indeed you do ditch the intercooler all together, it would be a prime oppertunity to try tuning for blow thru maf on that 3" cold pipe.

I've considered that, but I'm concerned about the volume of spray going past the MAF on a regular basis damaging the sensor. I'm not sure if the spray is completely evaporated post turbo or not. I think it probably is, in which case I think blow through would be okay. Still an unknown, so we'll see.

Either way, I'm still waiting on KSTech to get those 3" stainless MAF flanges back in stock so that I can build my 3" stainless CAI as part of this setup. You didn't happen to buy an extra one, did you?

[djuosnteisn]

Hahaha, i did, but i ruined in a fit of noob welding frustration. I know there was an aluminum one for sale around here at one point.

Are you planning on 3.25" intake? Cause if 3" would suit, you could rig something up with the atp piece

[subparpunk03]

How do you attach the jet holder to the turbo, and run the line to the jet?

I <3 my aquamist... its way good.

[AFcadet]

22 to 24 psi on stock turbo???

I was running 21 psi for like 6 months...and after I blew my motor I checked the stock turbo and there is a good amount of shaft play. Its just a short matter of time before the turbo was gonna go. Im really thinking its from running that high of boost. Those VW articles on the K04 was sayin anything higher then 18 psi and youll start heating up the turbo to much and starts to deform the shaft.

After seeing the shaft play in my turbo that was ran at 21 psi...I beleive it.

i wish i had shaft play

[KoukiS14]

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 How do you attach the jet holder to the turbo, and run the line to the jet?

The nozzle holder will sit on the actual turbo inlet and be held in place with a 2-1/8" coupler. I'll probably cut the coupler flush with the end of the nozzle holder. I may use some rubber cement, or something similar for extra security.

The outside diameter of the 2-1/8" coupler is 2-1/2", so I'll use a 2-1/2" to 3" 90* coupler attached to a stainless 45* bend to complete my custom TIP. Of course, I'll have a 1-1/8" tube welded to the 3" bend for the BPV recirc.

As far as the tubing, it's small, 4mm tubing, so I think I'll just pierce the 90* coupler, run the hose through, and silicone it up. It's simple and secure.

Originally Posted by AFcadet 22 to 24 psi on stock turbo??? I was running 21 psi for like 6 months...and after I blew my motor I checked the stock turbo and there is a good amount of shaft play. Its just a short matter of time before the turbo was gonna go. Im really thinking its from running that high of boost. Those VW articles on the K04 was sayin anything higher then 18 psi and youll start heating up the turbo to much and starts to deform the shaft. After seeing the shaft play in my turbo that was ran at 21 psi...I beleive it.

I'm going to monitor EGTs, and hopefully the meth will keep it low enough to keep the turbine/shaft from melting or drooping. If it works, great, if not, I have a spare turbo.

If I do a PG or PTP rebuild, I may get all the components cryo and WPC coated to aid longevity. At that point, I may be better off going to a Garrett turbo though. At this point, I'm just interested in seeing what the absolute power limit of a totally stock turbo is.

[subparpunk03]

Originally Posted by KoukiS14 The nozzle holder will sit on the actual turbo inlet and be held in place with a 2-1/8" coupler. I'll probably cut the coupler flush with the end of the nozzle holder. I may use some rubber cement, or something similar for extra security. The outside diameter of the 2-1/8" coupler is 2-1/2", so I'll use a 2-1/2" to 3" 90* coupler attached to a stainless 45* bend to complete my custom TIP. Of course, I'll have a 1-1/8" tube welded to the 3" bend for the BPV recirc. As far as the tubing, it's small, 4mm tubing, so I think I'll just pierce the 90* coupler, run the hose through, and silicone it up. It's simple and secure. I'm going to monitor EGTs, and hopefully the meth will keep it low enough to keep the turbine/shaft from melting or drooping. If it works, great, if not, I have a spare turbo. If I do a PG or PTP rebuild, I may get all the components cryo and WPC coated to aid longevity. At that point, I may be better off going to a Garrett turbo though. At this point, I'm just interested in seeing what the absolute power limit of a totally stock turbo is.

I cannot wait to see this setup... are you using a stock turbo inlet pipe, or a modified one? The TIPs that are made of silicone like the Cobb and CPE inlets probably will flex too much to just glue the line in place, although maybe rubber cement will work well. I'd actually suggest you glue something like part #806-359 on this page: Howerton Engineering Aquamist Parts into the intake. The reason being that if you ever want to swap the jet, you will have a hell of a time getting the hose off the jet and its a lot easier to slip it out of a fitting like that. And trust me, you're going to be playing with different sized jets.

[aaronc7]

if this turns out well, you need to make some setups for the rest of us or make a little how to etc

[06Speed6]

You guys are aware that instead of running pre and post turbo meth and junking stock turbos, you could just get a turbo thats made to run the boost that you want to run and then throw the whole meth system in the trash.

[subparpunk03]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 You guys are aware that instead of running pre and post turbo meth and junking stock turbos, you could just get a turbo thats made to run the boost that you want to run and then throw the whole meth system in the trash.

Yeah but thats no fun

I'm not convinced that pre-turbo WI done right will scrap a turbo. You don't necessarily have to crank the boost up to 24 psi to see benefit. From what I understand, pre-turbo WI will alter the efficiency of the turbo, thus enabling it to move more air at the same pressure levels. So when you romp on it and start spraying meth, all of a sudden your 20psi feels like 24-psi without meth. How it will actually behave in the real world and how much benefit you'll see from it is anyones guess... but i'd like to see someone give it a shot.

[AFcadet]

how bout we just dunk the intake filter into a bucket of meth.

[reddeerspeed3]

looks interesting and promising, but i think header wrap and a turbo blanket would be an excellent CYA decision if you ever had a hot side boost leak with 50/50 mix. flammable liquids tend to atomize into the perfect AF/R when they leak under pressure

[KoukiS14]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 if this turns out well, you need to make some setups for the rest of us or make a little how to etc

I'll have a full write up with pics when it's done.