Fellas, it's time to put on your big boy pants and make some real power <epic>

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by louloulou Word!

We cannot thank you enough Lou, great job!

[BlackMS3]

Originally Posted by Demi No no, i think (but ive been wrong before) that people are asking about people that were limited by hitting cut. The BT crowd. It doesnt add any HP but if someone hit a wall because of cut I want to know where they are getting to now?

PRECISELY!!!

I could care less about anything else for now... I'm staying damn near stock and not investing any more money on a dead end platform.... BUUUUT.... if we can all break 400whp now, with a set parts list, I might hang around....

[Lex]

Just to clear this up - you need fuel to have combustion. If you cut fuel completely (ie shut off the injectors) there will be no combustion, no detonation, nothing but you feeling like you hit a brick wall. It's bad on the drivetrain, but not a risk to the motor. Remember - air alone does not combust at those pressures.

This should not be confused with a other situations where there is LESS fuel delivered than desired, but there is still some fuel. That's what causes a lean condition. If your pump can't keep up with 30psi and you go lean - lean meaning there is still fuel being delivered - that's when you heat things up REALLY fast.

A well designed cut should protect the engine when one or more sensors indicate that the amount of fuel required to deliver a safe combustion is not available or the load is too high. Mazda designed this with the STOCK components in mind. That means stock pump, stock injectors, stock turbo and then added some headroom for a pump on the low end.

So no shit that you're going to hit cut if you leave the ECU logic and limits intact and you force more air down its throat. The proper/elegant solution here is to redesign the cut limits such that the upgraded components are taken into account and not to completely remove it.

Look at it in a simple way. You have a load sensor. That load sensor is maxed out because you're running 25psi. But you know it's safe because the car runs rich as is. However, it's not safe anymore if you hit 30psi. Well, the ECU can NO LONGER tell the difference between 25 and 30psi because the sensor is out of range. So if you were an engineer designing a car to be reliable and used by everyday Joe that doesn't have a Dashhawk or knows any better - what would you do? Would it not make sense to cut fuel at 25 psi when you can no longer tell what load is actually being applied?

The proper way to design a control system is not to fool sensors and bandaid things over by removing logic. The proper way is to design a system well suited for its purpose. Mazda did just fine with the stock car because that is what they designed. They didn't design something that can take 400hp because that's not what they sold.

So, you want to do it right? Then change sensors so that they are in the range that your car is operating and calibrate these new sensors in the ECU such that the logic still functions correctly. Not happy with the logic? Run a standalone and stop bitching that Mazda didn't build you a car that you can run 400hp in. That's the proper solution. Removing logic might be an immediate solution but it's just a bandaid. Understanding the triggers for the cuts and adjusting them is far more useful.

I commend the people that are working to understand this platform for their efforts because that's how progress happens and I think CP-E is doing a great job with their work. People should however be well aware of what removing logic entails and I'm not sure everyone is.

[Laloosh]

There is still enough fuel/heat int he chamber to ignite the mixture despite the ecu cutting fuel. When the ecu actually cuts fuel, its already to late and does more harm then good

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Lex Just to clear this up - you need fuel to have combustion. If you cut fuel completely (ie shut off the injectors) there will be no combustion, no detonation, nothing but you feeling like you hit a brick wall. It's bad on the drivetrain, but not a risk to the motor. Remember - air alone does not combust at those pressures.

Incorrect. Fuel cut can be VERY dangerous to the motor. Instead of cutting fuel good ecu's cut spark. That is an instant cut for combustion. Fuel is not. If you cut fuel and were running rich and have fuel residual in the motor you will cycle a few more times running EXTREMELY lean which leads to BOOOOOM. Fuel cut is EXTREMELY dangerous. Ignition cut is extremely safe. Full standalones like I am used to tuning allows you to use spark cut so that you don't have to worry about anything.

EDIT: DAMNIT LOOSH YOU HIT SUBMIT BEFORE ME haha

[phailerider]

oh ok... so if you ran a standalone youd want to program in cut right lex. your post was really long and not very useful.

mazda designed a ecu for a stock car... it is the aftermarkets job to simplify it so we can tune it like every other tuner platform out htere. the more tricks, and cuts , and bullshit.... the more dangerous and difficult it becomes at higher power levels.

NO aftermarket tuning solution on any car would want load calculations with fuel or boost cut limits. its stupid.

[Laloosh]

hehe pwned

[Lex]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Incorrect. Fuel cut can be VERY dangerous to the motor. Instead of cutting fuel good ecu's cut spark. That is an instant cut for combustion. Fuel is not. If you cut fuel and were running rich and have fuel residual in the motor you will cycle a few more times running EXTREMELY lean which leads to BOOOOOM. Fuel cut is EXTREMELY dangerous. Ignition cut is extremely safe. Full standalones like I am used to tuning allows you to use spark cut so that you don't have to worry about anything. EDIT: DAMNIT LOOSH YOU HIT SUBMIT BEFORE ME haha

This is a DI motor, there isn't more fuel left on the back of the valve like conventional port injection. Cutting spark causes big fireballs and it's not cat or emissions friendly and that's why it's not used on stock cars or used as a soft cut - like cut every other spark event making it less violent.

[Laloosh]

Last time i checked fuel is fuel and when you hit 30 psi, by the time the ecu even relizes it, the fuel is already there. Do you know how fast 4000rpm is? Im sure u do, 4000k revolution per minute....do the math per second, then let me know if theres fuel in the motor

[dadasracecar]

Have you seen the amount of fuel in a catch can? I'll bet there is residual unburned hydrocarbons as well as fuel vapor coming through the intake tract.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider oh ok... so if you ran a standalone youd want to program in cut right lex. your post was really long and not very useful. mazda designed a ecu for a stock car... it is the aftermarkets job to simplify it so we can tune it like every other tuner platform out htere. the more tricks, and cuts , and bullshit.... the more dangerous and difficult it becomes at higher power levels. NO aftermarket tuning solution on any car would want load calculations with fuel or boost cut limits. its stupid.

So you want no failsafe of any kind? Might as well get rid of fault codes as well. You know all about tuning solutions and control logic? Functional sensor ranges? Been in the business a long time? I'm not going to argue with you. I'm a controls systems engineer working in the automotive industry and you're clearly not so I'd be wasting my time. I have made my point and those that want to read it can take what they want from it.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Last time i checked fuel is fuel and when you hit 30 psi, by the time the ecu even relizes it, the fuel is already there. Do you know how fast 4000rpm is? Im sure u do, 4000k revolution per minute....do the math per second, then let me know if theres fuel in the motor

Do you know how quickly data is processed by the ECU? Do you know the response time of a sensor? Do you know the sampling rate on the A/D channels? Opening time of an injector?

The physical motor moves VERY VERY slowly compared to the electronics in the car otherwise you wouldn't be able to control the system. You've claimed to be an engineer - do you remember any control theory classes?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Lex So you want no failsafe of any kind? Might as well get rid of fault codes as well. You know all about tuning solutions and control logic? Functional sensor ranges? Been in the business a long time? I'm not going to argue with you. I'm a controls systems engineer working in the automotive industry and you're clearly not so I'd be wasting my time. I have made my point and those that want to read it can take what they want from it.

I'd love it if we could remove all the emissions related fault codes....If my EGR's low flow isn't making me less power I don't give a shit about it...I could also care less if my gass cap is loose, or my cat effiency is too low...

[Laloosh]

No actually i dont knwo the specefics, but i know enough to tell you that when fuel is cut via the ecu, fuel is still present in the combustion chamber....thats called experience with cars. Something you dont know much about

[Lex]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I'd love it if we could remove all the emissions related fault codes....If my EGR's low flow isn't making me less power I don't give a shit about it...I could also care less if my gass cap is loose, or my cat effiency is too low...

You could care less, but some people out there have set out some regulations for vehicles operated on the road and those people make it mandatory that those regulations must be met. If they are not met, the vehicle can't be sold. Further, if the vehicle falls out of specification; it should be repaired to once again meet the certification so the CEL is an indication that repair is needed. Of course that in the quest for power this is not important, but in the quest for regulating emissions which has its own merit it is. In reality, emission certifications drive A LOT of the design decisions that go into a modern engine. So much so, that as the requirements get tighter, you will see that the difference between engines made by different manufacturers will grow smaller and smaller because they all have to meet the same rigorous standards.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex So you want no failsafe of any kind? Might as well get rid of fault codes as well. You know all about tuning solutions and control logic? Functional sensor ranges? Been in the business a long time? I'm not going to argue with you. I'm a controls systems engineer working in the automotive industry and you're clearly not so I'd be wasting my time. I have made my point and those that want to read it can take what they want from it.

tell me specifically what it is that lou tuned out of our ecus? tell me the logic. i do know, and im not at liberty to say yet.

the fact that you are "an automotive expert"(think my cousin vinny).... does not mean you are an expert to dissect what it is that happens in our ecus, how the logic functions, how cut can be eliminated, or changed, or how the car will even function now.

you'll be interested in all of that when it can be discussed openly. for now tho, be assured that what is eliminated.... is simply making our car like every other platform where safe, high power tuning has been achieved. the logic still exists... its actually been improved, becuase now safe power wont induce cut.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Laloosh No actually i dont knwo the specefics, but i know enough to tell you that when fuel is cut via the ecu, fuel is still present in the combustion chamber....thats called experience with cars. Something you dont know much about

Quick to judge aren't we? Why don't you put down that guard and a mature discussion can be had? It's much more constructive that way for everyone.

Do you know that only fuel is cut and not spark as well?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider tell me specifically what it is that lou tuned out of our ecus? tell me the logic. i do know, and im not at liberty to say yet. the fact that you are "an automotive expert"(think my cousin vinny).... does not mean you are an expert to dissect what it is that happens in our ecus, how the logic functions, how cut can be eliminated, or changed, or how the car will even function now. you'll be interested in all of that when it can be discussed openly. for now tho, be assured that what is eliminated.... is simply making our car like every other platform where safe, high power tuning has been achieved. the logic still exists... its actually been improved, becuase now safe power wont induce cut.

No, I'm not your cousin vinny, I'm an engineer with a degree that works in the automotive industry. Specifically, I work in the controls group of a company that specializes in LNG fueling for heavy duty engines. But I'll swallow that personal attack.

If you're interested in a more in-depth discussion, why don't you talk about what you know? We can go from there. My post was not an attack although you seem to think so. My post simply brought up some general points about vehicle control systems.

[dadasracecar]

Same reason you'll never get any information about other fuel cut elimination strategies.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by Lex Quick to judge aren't we? Why don't you put down that guard and a mature discussion can be had? It's much more constructive that way for everyone. Do you know that only fuel is cut and not spark as well?

Yes i do, its called datalogging fuel cut

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Yes i do, its called datalogging fuel cut

So what did you log and what makes you think that spark is still applied? Don't take this as some attack, I'm just gathering information.

[dadasracecar]

Fuel Cut FTL.png

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Does cp-e have anyone in Canada or better yet Winnipeg that sells the programming and hardware?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Attachment 2446

Too bad the sampling rate of that log is not faster. Looks like ignition timing is also responding to the fuel cut so I am sure it was thought of when devising this cut. Has anyone's engine suffered any damage from cutting? I know some people have been living with the cut for a long time.

To re-iterate my point:
1. Failsafes are needed to protect from a runaway plant
2. Failsafes are only useful if they are properly designed around the plant that is being controlled.

I don't know why everyone is not agreeing with this. The Mazda stock failsafes are obviously not designed to handle the load forced on a modified engine and are nuisance instead of useful. That doesn't mean that all failsafes should be removed. Instead they should be modified for the plant being controlled. That is an IDEAL situation. CPE should chime in and discuss this.

[Laloosh]

didnt a guy just blew up stumbling/cutting while doign 85 on the freeway. Ive said this over and over, fuel cut is not a failsafe for anything cause there is still fuel upon combustion and spark to ignite it. If fuel and spark was infact cut for enough time to actually rid all fuel fromt he combustion chamber and remove all spark, we would have every1 stalling

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Laloosh didnt a guy just blew up stumbling/cutting while doign 85 on the freeway. Ive said this over and over, fuel cut is not a failsafe for anything cause there is still fuel upon combustion and spark to ignite it. If fuel and spark was infact cut for enough time to actually rid all fuel fromt he combustion chamber and remove all spark, we would have every1 stalling

that violent cut is as close to a stall as you'd get while the car is moving. You can't instantaneously stop the rotating assembly - the momentum of the entire car will keep the engine spinning.

I think that guy had a lot more issues cutting out while cruising.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex I don't know why everyone is not agreeing with this. The Mazda stock failsafes are obviously not designed to handle the load forced on a modified engine and are nuisance instead of useful. That doesn't mean that all failsafes should be removed. Instead they should be modified for the plant being controlled. That is an IDEAL situation. CPE should chime in and discuss this.

give me another example of an aftermarket ems that either creates supposed failsafes such as ours, or doesnt eliminate them. name one.

the reason everybody is not agreeing with you is because were not trying to reinvent the wheel here. you are.
i want a car thats just as easy, for me or my tuner, to tune as every other one out there. i dont one 100 random ways that my car cuts WOT at a certain timeframe AFTER a load calculation has been exceeded. and i dont want that bullshit reprogrammed either!!!

mazda didnt give us a cut for fuel pressure dropping.. it didnt give us a cut for any other real safety reason... it did it because of load calcs..

1. i make too much power
2. one second passes
3. bang.... fucking cut.... did my car just break apart?...no i just made too much power dammit.

just make it go away. ive been making safe power , for so long with so much cut that i fucking hate it. ive fuel cut my car 500 times. all for no fucking good reason. i monitor everything you can monitor, im a fucking worrywart supreme. i hardly even enjoy driving it i stare at gauges all day.

this cut is the gay. i want my car like my hondas..give me kpro. well now ive got it.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by MZRDISI4 Why was my post deleted

because this is my section. and it was a stupid, speculative, COMPLETLY INACCURATE, misrepresentative post. just like all your others.

[crazyitalian041]

been driving the car in cold ass weather and have yet to hit cut... even when im gunning it.... its pure amazing.

[Demi]

Originally Posted by Lex So you want no failsafe of any kind?

For fuck sake yes man. Are you wearing a diaper in case you shit yourself? Im sure no more than responsible tuning is a new concept. Its amazing the leaps and bounds by which the automotive world has advanced in the last 100 years with out a fuel cut "feature", im sure it was just the automotive gods and collective will keeping every engine together until Mazda stepped in and saved them from themselves. If you dont feel comfortable using it, dont. Youve made your point and now its just a pissing contest. Can we move the fuck on?

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Originally Posted by Demi Are you wearing a diaper in case you shit yourself?

I just about sprayed the water I was drinking out my nose. That is perfect LOL!

[Haltech]

Ford did something interesting with the Lightnings, which carried over to the Cobras for a failsafe.

If you overboosted, the boost solenoid remained open for 45 seconds. There is no fuel or spark cut whatsoever. All of the boost got bypassed and blown back into the intake. Now this was a cool idea if you left the vehicle at 8 psi. Everyone quickly bypassed this to hit 12 or 14 psi on the stock blowers. It had no ill effects on mods down the road.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider give me another example of an aftermarket ems that either creates supposed failsafes such as ours, or doesnt eliminate them. name one. the reason everybody is not agreeing with you is because were not trying to reinvent the wheel here. you are. i want a car thats just as easy, for me or my tuner, to tune as every other one out there. i dont one 100 random ways that my car cuts WOT at a certain timeframe AFTER a load calculation has been exceeded. and i dont want that bullshit reprogrammed either!!! mazda didnt give us a cut for fuel pressure dropping.. it didnt give us a cut for any other real safety reason... it did it because of load calcs.. 1. i make too much power 2. one second passes 3. bang.... fucking cut.... did my car just break apart?...no i just made too much power dammit. just make it go away. ive been making safe power , for so long with so much cut that i fucking hate it. ive fuel cut my car 500 times. all for no fucking good reason. i monitor everything you can monitor, im a fucking worrywart supreme. i hardly even enjoy driving it i stare at gauges all day. this cut is the gay. i want my car like my hondas..give me kpro. well now ive got it.

Do you even know what a "load" based cut is? Do you know how load is calculated by the ECU?

The ECU receives inputs and an output is determined based on those inputs and the software written (the logic). The cut is triggered by one or more inputs which are passed through several logic statements.

Once you know the logic and the inputs involved, then you can recalibrate the trigger. You've just told me the car cuts in 100 ways randomly. That means you don't know the logic triggering the cut or the inputs to that piece of logic. How can you say you have a solution when you don't even know what was causing the problem?

So then what's the easiest work around to this - disable the whole thing. Now, to me, that doesn't sound like an elegant solution for many reasons. That might just be me though. One thing is for sure - vehicle control has come a long way from the Hondas you mentioned and in my opinion those advances can be used to our benefit.

I have yet to see CPE come here and rebut any of this - or even explain why they have chosen to cut the logic out instead of manipulating it to retain the failsafe yet allow more load on the engine.

All you big nut swingers can now come in here and talk about diapers all day long - but if I were you I'd stop and think a little bit about what I've written because it may just make some sense.

[phailerider]

trust me... i KNOW far more about this particualr ecu, flash, and logic than you. far more. not on my own but thanks to the insider status i enjoy with cpe. I BEG them to go public with what theyve found but so far no go.

so youd rather recalibrate the trigger..... all xx.xx of them, wherever they all are. i'll tell you what. work on it. i want power before im a grandpa. if you think theres value to it... then do it. or wait until someone does it for you...lol good luck.

in the meantime.... all the rest of us are gonna tune the way everybody else does.

if you asked the top 100 tuners in the country if theyd want this bullshit in the ecu for a modified car, i think youd get a pretty singular response. i think the boards rebuttal of your nonsense is fairly indicative of the response youd get from those outside of the mazda community as well.

[Lex]

The simple fact that you call it nonsense tells me YOU still don't get the point.

Whether some guy with a dyno likes a failsafe or not doesn't mean anything. Oh yeah, does your tuner warranty the car for 5 years? Any liability at all? What's he going to do for you once you spiked to 30psi and kept on going? And what is that tuning degree he must have?

Sure, I can agree some can live with that; after all you have to pay to play right? Paying is no problem, but I like to be smart about it. This is not a race car for me. It's a car that I want to set boost to 17psi and have it cut if the map sensor is pegged out of range. It's a car that my girlfriend can drive and not have to watch all the gauges.

To each his own.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex The simple fact that you call it nonsense tells me YOU still don't get the point. Whether some guy with a dyno likes a failsafe or not doesn't mean anything. Oh yeah, does your tuner warranty the car for 5 years? Any liability at all? What's he going to do for you once you spiked to 30psi and kept on going? And what is that tuning degree he must have? Sure, I can agree some can live with that; after all you have to pay to play right? Paying is no problem, but I like to be smart about it. This is not a race car for me. It's a car that I want to set boost to 17psi and have it cut if the map sensor is pegged out of range. It's a car that my girlfriend can drive and not have to watch all the gauges. To each his own.

based on your goals for the car... it all makes sense now. ok!!! youve made your point. now your done. got it?

[Deadman]

i hope you all know the ukrainians are MUCH further ahead with this ECU than any of the companies here in the states enough said.! (The MS6 anyways)

[Demi]

Originally Posted by Deadman i hope you all know the ukrainians are MUCH further ahead with this ECU than any of the companies here in the states enough said.! (The MS6 anyways)

Damn really? Got any links? I was wondering if anybody outside of the us was working on this too.

[builthatch]

Originally Posted by Demi Damn really? Got any links? I was wondering if anybody outside of the us was working on this too.

ha...

if we put the israeli military on it, it'd be cracked in a matter of days.

[08.5TRS3]

i still dont understand what the point is in this pissin match in either thread and why its gone on this long lol .. you either want it so you can make serious power or you dont, if you dont want it dont buy it its plan and simple .. if you dont agree with the method then move on, its not goin on your car who cares. take the information for what it is and jus be glad we got a company tryin to make improvements for the people in the community that wanna make power .... thanks again cpe for stickin it out with us lol