Official Release: 400hp and beyond...

[www.cp-e.com]

For the past several weeks cp-e and P3 have been very hard at work in an effort to push the MazdaSPEED platform to the next level. In other words, we aimed to investigate exactly what is keeping us from producing big power with the turbo MZR engine. We've done a lot of reading, researching, measuring, and testing, and we're pleased to tell everyone that the MazdaSPEED platforms are capable of 400hp on the DISI fuel system, and then some. Here's some more information about what we've found...

One thing that I want people to keep in mind is that we don't have many options when it comes to engine parts for this platform. We've basically got GT series turbos, a few manifolds, and only a couple options for engine management. So when people tell me how many people have tried and failed in the past at making power on these cars, I think sometimes folks forget that everyone used more or less the same combination. So maybe it's no wonder no one has been able to make BIG power with the MazdaSPEEDs? Lately people have pointed the finger at the ECU, but so far as we can tell there's nothing stopping people from making 400whp on this car. So really it comes down to the hard parts people have chosen, and the tunes they've been using. So let's look closer at that.

When Robbie arrived and we threw his car on the dyno, it became apparent to us that something was not right with the vehicle. We were running way too much boost and not making any power. As we looked closer into what was happening, we found that several of the mechanical parts on his car weren't ideally suited for the power levels we were after. So cp-e and P3 came together and planned a winning combination for the car. We consulted many of the biggest and best in the industry and we eventually decided upon a new manifold and turbo combination. The manifold we chose, I think was a no-brainer. The minute I saw it in person I said, "That's it, that's the manifold we need to use for big power." It looked different than what was on the market, it felt different (heavy!), and most importantly, it looked like it was made to move exhaust gas. The manifold I'm referring to is the Medieval tubular mani:

This is the real deal. The bends were gentle, the steel is thick, and the collector is gorgeous. The unit is huge and heavy, but it fit, and it offered the tremendous flow requirements that we were after. A big thanks goes out to Mike at medieval for his assistance during this project!!!

The next problem we wanted to address was the turbo.

The GT3071R turbo is a great reputable unit, but we weren't entirely satisfied with the flow potential. Sadly, there aren't that many other turbo options out there currently, so we had to get a little creative, but that also allowed us to go "outside the box" and pick whichever turbo we wanted. We tried several, and eventually found the unit that exactly met our needs.

So we bolted up the new manifold, turbo, and also swapped out Robbie's downpipe with a catless version. We were ready to go!

So what'd we find? Good things! Most of the things that were being said about the ECU and fuel system simply weren't coming true on the dyno. As you can see above we have plenty of fuel pressure, the injector pulse-width isn't near being maxed out, and this is with a turbo at 20psi and ~78% efficiency

Also take note of where peak boost is achieved: 3500rpm. In other words, the turbo that we've chosen is not only good for about 500hp to the wheels, but it also spools well before 4000rpm, which leaves a reasonable amount of RPM left compared to some other compressor options of this size. This run was performed on the wastegate spring (20psi).

So what else did we find in tuning Robbie's car? Well, we found that many of the longstanding rules for tuning these cars didn't quite work on Robbies car. We literally started tuning the car from scratch to see exactly what it DID like.

"Okay, we added more fuel, did it like it or not. No, okay, then let's back it off some and see what we get."

"How about timing? Was it happy with that timing at 20psi? No? Okay, let's pull some and see what we get."

"We raised boost but did power increase as we expected? No, then why not? Let's look into that to see why..."

We had a very methodical approach for tuning the car, and we experimented with as many variables as we could to learn what the engine wants. Every engine is different, so we had to determine exactly what this one liked. I think we have a much better understanding how to tune these engines for power, but we're still fine tuning our method. Once we're comfortable with the tune and how the car is running, then we'll post up the slew of dynos we have that illustrate our learning curve with the car.

I'm happy to answer questions in the mean time, but you'll have to respect the fact that we're not going to divulge every little detail we found in our experience, and that some questions can't be answered yet. Our aim is to develop a turbo kit with every necessary part for hitting this kind of power, but we're not finished yet. So more details will be released soon, but I'm more than willing to answer any burning questions people have.

Ah, one more thing that I wanted to address because I know it will be asked: "Does this mean we can make 400whp on stock engines?" Absolutely not. We did not find a magic bullet that fixes the inherent design flaws in Mazdas engines. Instead, we found how to make power with engines that are designed to handle the power in question.


Thanks again for the support guys. We'll push this platform just as far as we can!!

[crazyitalian041]

Thank you Jordan, much appreciated brother.

[xcoldricex]

cp-e coming through yet again. glad you guys are working hard on our platform - thank you again robbie, cp-e, p3, medieval and everyone involved!

[Haltech]

Looking good. Any pics of the turbo and the manifold together?

[MarkyMark]

Every time Jordan opens his mouth it makes me happy.

Great work, as always. I cannot wait to take my car up there.

[Cherryspeed]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark Every time Jordan opens his mouth it makes me happy. Great work, as always. I cannot wait to take my car up there.

No fucking way that car is going on that dyno!




























J/K man, I can't wait to see that monster run!

BOT-Great job CPE!

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark Every time Jordan opens his mouth it makes me happy.

hey jake, chalk another one up for the signature lol

[phillyb]

holy shit. that's a lot of good info. thanks

[gsrtype1]

AWSOME!!!Great work Cp-e! Yeah tubular manifolds are great!

[Unoriginalusername]

that mani is the sex

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com Ah, one more thing that I wanted to address because I know it will be asked: "Does this mean we can make 400whp on stock engines?" Absolutely not. We did not find a magic bullet that fixes the inherent design flaws in Mazdas engines. Instead, we found how to make power with engines that are designed to handle the power in question.

What exactly does this mean? Are we talking about internals here? Could a guy make 380whp with a fully bolted engine and your tune?

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Haltech Looking good. Any pics of the turbo and the manifold together?

I can take some shots of the mani, but the turbo is one thing that we'd like to incorporate into our kit, so we're keeping our selection under wraps until the project is further underway.

But to be clear, you don't need to use the turbo that we did. We chose this turbo because it is a proven unit, it turned out to work really well, but really you just need a good turbo. The others we were using weren't quite right for one reason or another (depending on which turbo we're talking about). We just really like this particular turbo, and would like to incorporate it in a reasonably priced turbo upgrade kit.

I can take a pic of the mani/external gate modifications and screamer if that's what you're after though?

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark Every time Jordan opens his mouth it makes me happy.

Man, if I didn't have to maintain some semblance of professionalism I'd have a ball with that statement

I can't wait for you to get up here either man!!

Originally Posted by kingpin748 What exactly does this mean? Are we talking about internals here? Could a guy make 380whp with a fully bolted engine and your tune?

Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say. I just saw a lot of people ask, "Well, does this mean that we can make 400hp on a stock engine now?" but I want people to understand that what we've done is totally irrelevant to the rotating assembly and doesn't change the rules behind the rods breaking. So unfortunately in order to get this kind of power you really do still need forged rods at the very least I think.


Thanks for the encouraging comments guys! I'll try to get more information about when we'll have more updates about the car for you. Once we can get back on the dyno we can make some more progress and post about it.

[Laloosh]

now this is how the thread should have started to begin with!

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by Laloosh now this is how the thread should have started to begin with!

What the hec is wrong with a little congradulations before all the the naysayers start there arguments?

[rodrigo]

cant wait to see a flat 12

[Smoker6]

To make more power run less boost, retard timing, and pull fuel. I love our cars. So logical.

That's a genius way of not running out of fuel though. Pull fuel, instead. lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 To make more power run less boost, retard timing, and pull fuel. I love our cars. So logical. That's a genius way of not running out of fuel though. Pull fuel, instead. lol

yeah... i was thinking that too...lol. at least they were facing the same things the other guys had. i still want to see about the raising boost thing tho. thats the nuttiest thing out there weve all encountered.

jordan...would you say that at this point that cpe has figured out how to raise boost and make more power? was that a hurdle youve overcome.... or one you still face?

certainly power levels are higher than ever before, but im curious about what your statement means for the future.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by palerider yeah... i was thinking that too...lol. at least they were facing the same things the other guys had. i still want to see about the raising boost thing tho. thats the nuttiest thing out there weve all encountered. jordan...would you say that at this point that cpe has figured out how to raise boost and make more power? was that a hurdle youve overcome.... or one you still face? certainly power levels are higher than ever before, but im curious about what your statement means for the future.

The honest answer is that we really don't know yet. That's one thing that I think we neglected to mention during all of the chaos is that we still have yet to turn up the boost. We haven't even tried! The highest pressure we've run on this turbo is 23psi, and that was just for a handful of runs. The power definitely went up with the higher boost, but it was clear to us that we had to retune the car for the new pressure to get the most out of it. Most of the long nights were spent at 20psi though, and once we're confident that we've gotten everything we can out of 20psi, we'll turn it up some more.

[yoichi]

Amazing work. Just amazing.

[crazyitalian041]

roger.

[MedievalREP]

Glad the hear the manifold worked out so well! Props to CP-E, for all your hard work and dedication. BTW thats one sexy looking manifold

[6-Speed-6]

I don't think this is how the thread should have started. I don't think they even needed to share. I realize after reading through many threads, the amount of frustration that goes with this platform. Especially when you look at what other manufacturer platforms have been able to do so quickly. I want to thank cp-e for sharing and looking forward to 450+ and more.

[spnkr21]

so would you say don't replace the turbo till you get rods? or do we replace internals before that. just wondering if there is a guess what the stock block can handle

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Lex First of all, congratulations! One technical question. You are showing 78% duty cycle on the injectors. If this number is the true injector duty cycle for a good amount of that time the exhaust valves are open. Is your 78% scaled such that it represents a % of the USABLE (exhaust valves closed) duty cycle on the DI platform? If it is a true 78% of the engine cycle that the injectors are open, have you altered injection timing - and how so to avoid spraying into the exhaust? That weird dip at 6000RPM in the dyno graph might have something to do with it? It seems that a lot of the success is due to a well matched/flowing exhaust system and turbo choice.

Thanks Lex!

Yup, the window for the injector duty is the beginning of the intake stroke to the beginning of the power stroke. We've monitored this directly with an o-scope (not with an OBD-II tool!!) and we were able to see exactly when the injectors were opening and closing. So there's no worry of injecting fuel during the exhaust stroke. That weird dip in the injector duty probably just had more to do with our wacky boost on the wg spring than the injector timing, but who knows.

Originally Posted by spnkr21 so would you say don't replace the turbo till you get rods? or do we replace internals before that. just wondering if there is a guess what the stock block can handle

Yes! I think that's great advice actually. That may not be what people want to hear, but my stomach starts to knot up when I get people calling about tuning their 3076 on a stock engine for instance. I'll be the first to admit that we don't yet know exactly why engines come apart when they do, but considering the status quo I'd highly recommend forged internals before even considering a new turbo. That isn't to say that a big turbo won't work for a while on a stock engine, it's just a matter of time before it comes apart I think. Typically I tell people to stay below 300whp (~275whp for MS3) if their vehicle is a daily driver and they like to beat on it a lot.

[Smoker6]

Yeah, thanks for posting this CPE. I was very interested in roughly what you went through in terms of tuning to arrive at this power.

[Lex]

First of all, congratulations!

One technical question. You are showing 78% duty cycle on the injectors. If this number is the true injector duty cycle for a good amount of that time the exhaust valves are open. Is your 78% scaled such that it represents a % of the USABLE (exhaust valves closed) duty cycle on the DI platform?

If it is a true 78% of the engine cycle that the injectors are open, have you altered injection timing - and how so to avoid spraying into the exhaust? That weird dip at 6000RPM in the dyno graph might have something to do with it?

It seems that a lot of the success is due to a well matched/flowing exhaust system and turbo choice.

[TiZi]

Jordan, congratulations to you and the rest of the CPE folk... You can always look towards you guys for innovation, professionalism and above all some SOLID FUCKEN WORK!!! Way to go boys! It does not matter that I am permanently on the sidelines now, I will always be keeping my eye out on your process with this and other platforms and of course your inevitable successes.

As for you Jordan, I think you are the one individual who is by far the most respected in this whole little world and you are an asset not only to CPE( which I hope the realize) but to all of us in the speed community. I am very proud of all the great work you have done for all of us.

Keep it going my good friend. See ya

[crazyitalian041]

Built ur motor before u do anything with a big turbo.. The stock block cant even handle regular boost levels let alone what a big turbo can do. Even considering it is folly imo.

[Unoriginalusername]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 Built ur motor before u do anything with a big turbo.. The stock block cant even handle regular boost levels let alone what a big turbo can do. Even considering it is folly imo.

how much $ to build the block right before anything else?

[crazyitalian041]

Originally Posted by Unoriginalusername how much $ to build the block right before anything else?

Not sure, i cant even remember what i paid but it was well worth the work.

[wassup61]

Around 5k done right with headwork.

[crazyitalian041]

Jake??? you mean mark..?

[Smoker6]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 Jake??? you mean mark..?

No he means Jake. Jake has Mark's phallic-reference posts in his sig.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 Jake??? you mean mark..?

lol no i mean jake, jhershorin


you iz out of teh loop

[phillyb]

no he means jake, jhershorin, should add another one of mark's funny remarks to his (jake's) signature. get with the fucking times robbie.

[phillyb]

wow, fuck i'm late. damn

[Smoker6]

I can haz moar loops? No Audi tho kthx

[crazyitalian041]

and for that you fail. got it.

[Fobio]

thanks for all the great info, Jordan/Cp-e. I'll certainly be putting the Medieval manifold up high on the TDL, after I install my CP-e DP.

[EvilSpeed3]

This is great!!!