What should I use as my base map

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

So I've decided to take a look into ATR since I can't get an OTS map to play nice with my mods and gas here.

That said ... I'm studying the literature before touching it and need advice on what map to use as a base map for my mods.

Cobb SRI
Cobb Inlet
Forge BPV
ETS TMIC 3.25"
Denso Itv22
SU Testpipe

[jahman]

Use a stage 2+ map, calibrate your MAF first, then go from there.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Should I start though with something like a Stg2 +sf +fmic (because I have a TMIC) 91 and then detune it ... or Stg 2+sf 91 and go from there .. just looking for a starting point thats going to be easiest to tune from.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

nothing huh ... am I better off posting on the cobb forums to get an answer?

[dread]

There is no way to tell really. No one is going to know how your car is going to respond to either map. I would start with the fmic map, since you will be less likely to get boost cut. Flash that map and get some logs and then we can advice you on what needs to be changed.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

so ... stage 2 +sf +fmic 91

I'll flash that today ... let my ltfts settle then post the logs.

Thanks.

[dread]

If your fuel trims are off a lot don't even bother doing WOT logs. Just get the PID's necessary to fix the fuel trims.

[fjames]

The S2 maps mostly have stock fuel, so you're LTFTs will be +++. The ots maps are all so fucked up I don't really think it matters where you start, it just determines what changes you'll have to make. With a S1.5 car you can run pretty much any of the ots maps, but I'd start with the S1+ just because the fuel will be better. I started with v103r, but it could have been anything, and if I was more familiar with ATR at the time I probably would have stared with 103j FMIC. But really, it just doesn't matter, if you get into it you're going to change a lot of stuff and once you get a feel for it, you'll see how off the ots maps really are.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I got the s2 sf fmic 91 map on there now ... and drove about 30 miles so far on it today ... the LTFT's started off at +8 ... and had gone to +5.5 and now as I pulled in the garage ..idling at +3.9.

The first map I had on the car was the final s1 +sf +fmic 91 ... and it felt nice except that I got ALOT of knock in my 4th gear pulls .. like as high as 5.9 and I swear I heard detonation so that map kinda scared me ... but it's Ltft's seemed like they were bang on.

Should I continue with this map and see if it keeps coming down? ATR just "seems" overwhelming to me ... I'd like to have an easy start so i can get comfortable with it.

[fjames]

If you had a map that you thought had good LTFT for you, I'd just copy the values from that map to your present one. The problem with a ++ LTFT is that they get used at WOT up to a point (about 5K) then drop out. So you go insta-lean at that point.

Fully read the tuning guide and the help file. Then read them again. Then start taking baby steps with a map. The program is stupid simple and has a lot of features to enhance its intended use. What's hard is understanding how a motor works, then how this motor works, then how to affect how it works, then how to use this particular software to do that.

So the better understanding you have of how fuel and boost and load and electronic throttle control work together, the better off you are. But the program is simple.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I'm going to go back to the first map I think actually for the way it felt compared to this stg 2 one ... If my LTFT's are at zero, do I still need to calibrate my maf and do the steps right from the begining of the guide?

The only problem I had with the stg1 +sf +fmic 91 map was that I got knock in 4th gear ... where would you recommend I start to fix that issue?

[fjames]

No, you wouldn't have to calibrate MAF, but be sure you understand it and it's zero in all the areas - between all the breakpoints. Best to log it and follow Christian's directions just so you can see the results for verification.

I have no clue what people are talking about when they say some map gives them knock when others don't. I never had that problem, so no experience with it. KR is a huge variable with these cars, never know where it's coming from. First think is to check connections so you're sure it's not mechanical, but other than that, it would be best to log it under conditions that you know it will knock. Then you can study it at your leisure.

Oh, this is a distant memory, but I believe it only registers "real" knock, under power, up to 6. It's confusing because the phantom KR goes higher. So, if you're doing a power run, and see 6 KR and no higher, the conditions that caused it could be continuing to get worse but you wouldn't 't know it.

My experience with power induced knock last summer (80-90 deg) was any single gear was okay, but consecutive gears at WOT would give me KR every time in 5th. That's why everybody wants meth. But - 4th was usually okay, and anything less than WOT was okay. I've kind of decided that forcing it into KR by some artificial testing methodology isn't realistic, so I'm not going to worry too much unless I start seeing it in my daily driving.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Could the ignition timing be too aggressive for the fuel I'm running 91 map running 91 fuel (Canadian though and it's been noted that it's shit 91) ... Here is a 4th gear WOT log I did from last week on the map I just put back on the car.

Boost is too high for my liking but FP, AFR look to be fine and in line. That kr just scares me a little.

I am going to be ordering a meth kit and that will probably clean it up a little, but I'd rather tune it out then use the meth as a saftey net.

[dread]

Like I said earlier, the first thing you need to do is confirm your fuel trims are bang on and that means at all your break points, not just idle. You need to read the tuning guide if you plan to tune. As far as the knock goes. Lower the load values in 4th gear to start with. Don't fuck with the timing. You can can also adjust your commanded a/f ratio to be richer. You shouldn't be holding 19 psi on a 91 octane map lowering the load will lower your boost. You can see your KR occurs when your boost is highest.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Originally Posted by dread Like I said earlier, the first thing you need to do is confirm your fuel trims are bang on and that means at all your break points, not just idle. You need to read the tuning guide if you plan to tune. As far as the knock goes. Lower the load values in 4th gear to start with. Don't fuck with the timing. You can can also adjust your commanded a/f ratio to be richer. You shouldn't be holding 19 psi on a 91 octane map lowering the load will lower your boost. You can see your KR occurs when your boost is highest.

THank you ... as soon as this map settles in I'll start the Maf calibration to determine the FT status first ... then adjust the load first of all. The AFR's seem alright to me ... I think my gas here just plain sucks to so the boost target def. needs to come down ... the target 17.5 would be fine ... but 19 is too high.

[dread]

definately boost is too high. Once you perfect your maf in may come down. If not just lower load when the boost is spiking.

[badams118]

If you had started with Stage2+ SF 91 instead of the FMIC version, you wouldn't be boosting as high. The ignition is already pretty conservative on that map from what I have seen; I don't that that is the issue.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I tried that map and it's logs actually looked worse then the one I posted above and I did boost the same ... I peaked 22 and held 19 too on the stg 2 +sf 91

[badams118]

That's odd since load & boost targets tables are lower. Stick to the FMIC map if you want to, but drop the load & boost values down to the 16 psi range until you get your MAF dialed in. That's what I did. You can add the boost back in after.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Why would i need to do that first? ... I'm not going wot right now and letting the ltft's settle so the load and boost targets are kind of irrelevant right now ... I've got a day or 2 more driving before I do the MAF calibration and was just going to those changes with the boost and load all at once.

[badams118]

All right, do this. Let your fuel trims settle in at part throttle. Make a note if your LTFT. Then go do a couple of WOT runs. Take another look at your LTFT at the same MAF voltage.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Well ... LTFT's aren't settling in nicely this time ... is it possible that dues to temps maybe it's not settling as nicely? ... after almost 100 miles on it ... the closest it's come to 0 at idle is where it is now at -3.7. Part throttle they are mostly at -0.8% and I did a couple of WOT 'bursts' and it sits at 0 like i'm sure is normal.

Is this good enough to do my MAF calibration on?

[badams118]

I'd call that good. You can run the test Cobb recommends in the ATR guide, to be sure, but you are probably fine.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I may hold a bit longer and see ... just cuz it still seems to be struggling to get the target AFR when I come to a stop ... the LTFT goto -3.7 but the stft's are all over the place (+10, +5.5 etc) for a few seconds to try and achieve the 14.58 or whatever it has as a target right now.

[dread]

You need to consider your stft's when doing your MAF calibration, if you do you should be fine even if the map is not completely settled. Do this this you should run the prescribed testing procedure and datalog, not just eyeball it.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

K I might be a real dummy here but ... where am I best to datalog ... I am used the DH .. and to be honest I tried to log on the AP today to do my MAF calibration and well wasted the first couple attempts cuz i didn't realize how much I had to give it the pedal to get to 100g/s on the air flow.

That said it doesn't look like any of my log attempts saved???

They are also SHITTY to view unless I'm doing something wrong the DH just seems so much cleaner and more user friendly though only being able to do 4 pid's at once.

SO long story short am I logging "wrong" with the AP, is there a tutorial for that LOL.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

K ... so scratch that... I got the log ...

Please advise what I should change here ... it looks like the Flow g/s is REALLY choppy while the LTFT looks fairly smooth, as you can see I was steady on the pedal but on both the 2nd gear pull and the neutral rev the g/s is very choppy.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

I've tried again today to get another log to calibrate from ... I just CANNOT make the g/s smooth, perhaps it's the map thats on the car making it difficult.

Cobb's literature states to run the test slowly accelerating for 20 seconds, is this hard and fast? How important is that time frame ... as in if it takes me 15 seconds to go through the gear to get to 100 g/s is that fine? I find that holding and slowly actuating the pedal smoothly is VERY difficult. and I also find the AP a complete pain to log on... DH logs should be fine for this calibration right?

It seems like doing this test over and over again to grab the logs I need is hard on the vehicle as I'm winding out the gear slow and holding the engine at a high load for such an extended period of time.

[dread]

those logs are fine. All you need to see is where the ltft break points are. For example there is a breakpoint at 5 g/sec which means your ltft's might change there. You would adjust your maf values for 5 g/s until the next break 28 g/sec and so on. Dash hawk logs are fine but you want your stft's as well

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

STFT too? ... the Cobb logs don't say to log them? How would you change for them.

[dread]

short term fuel trims, and I believe cobb does say log them. Just get rid of relative throttle.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

My next question ... is .. MAF volts are not logged ... so me being a dummy and simply not being able to grasp things right now, how do you know where on the MAF Table to make your changes be it + or -

[Meder]

Dont want to steal the OP's thread, but have a quick question.

I am running stage 2 + sf + tmic 93 map.

I no longer am running the tmic, my fuel trims are good(within 3% from 0) and afrs are high/mid 11's which seems fine. Is it ok for me to start tuning starting from this map as long as everything is good for me? Its a bit low on boost but everything else such as fuel trims, knock, and the overall feel of the map is good.