Cobb EBCS

[m249saw]

Did I miss the thread on this? Thoughts?






http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/2012/05/...trol-solenoid/

[Sid3wayS]

Link says it's for a scoobie.

Edit: Reading > Me

[PapaSmurf]

if you read the whole link its made for mazda too

[m249saw]

Yes there is a Mazda specific part number

Price $115

@David@COBB

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[smoogs12]

I think I remember him saying something about it in shout.

Dont think there was ever a product release thread

[Domino81]

How does that price compare to the Grimmspeed?

[rfinkle2]

@JasonMzdSpd3... Another 3 port option

[phate]

Interested to hear results from any BT folks who run this in the future. The Grimm EBCS has been tossed to the side all too often on BT setups since they are just way too sensitive. I would love to see a viable EBCS option for those folks.

[uncorked11]

I may also go with a manual boost control. The Grimmspeed isn't really working out.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?wfsls1

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by phate Interested to hear results from any BT folks who run this in the future. The Grimm EBCS has been tossed to the side all too often on BT setups since they are just way too sensitive. I would love to see a viable EBCS option for those folks.

Too sensitive?
What does that mean? Passages in the 3/2 way valve are too small? It reacts too quickly?
I use a flow control valve on mine. Which I bet is the manufacturer that makes the Cobb one (Mac). I use a flow control valve to imitate a rectrictor or orifice. Boost spikes are a problem but that's because unless you zero out all dynamics in ATR the ECU will up the duty cycle to reach boost / load target upon gear changes. Its not the solenoid's fault. So after over 80 map revisions its back to MBCS for me.

[OneBAMFpog]

I'm not BT but I did just install the Cobb EBCS today. I liked that it mounted back into the stock spot. Install wasn't difficult at all. Still fine tuning for it a little bit but no fail thus far. I'll post more once it's at 100%.

[ArcticSpeed3]

Fuck, so guys are having issues with their Grimmspeed EBCS! I wish I would have seen this before I ordered mines from Edge.

[ASHMS3]

I don't think there's too many K04 guys having problems with the GS, just the BT guys.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Can I ask, why is the Perrin EBCS not more popular? maybe the better question is why is everybody on the GS and almost nobody on the perrin?

Up till now, my default choice would have been a perrin with the ms connector...

For reference, turbo for me would most likely be just a BNR S1

[p057]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Can I ask, why is the Perrin EBCS not more popular? maybe the better question is why is everybody on the GS and almost nobody on the perrin? Up till now, my default choice would have been a perrin with the ms connector... For reference, turbo for me would most likely be just a BNR S1

I have the GS MBC, and I have to say it's top-notch quality. From packaging all the way to product, this thing is solid as hell.

I'd venture a guess that people are sticking with them probably due to past experience with a good company like this. Can't really comment on the other stuff though.


(please don't do an S1... at LEAST a BNR S3)

[rfinkle2]

Perrin is a solid company, but there were 2 generations of ebcs, the first of which had a few issues.

To the best of my knowledge, Perrin has always taken care of any issues that arise, and their newest bcs has been around for quite a while.

Originally Posted by Tomas Too sensitive? What does that mean? Passages in the 3/2 way valve are too small? It reacts too quickly? I use a flow control valve on mine. Which I bet is the manufacturer that makes the Cobb one (Mac). I use a flow control valve to imitate a rectrictor or orifice. Boost spikes are a problem but that's because unless you zero out all dynamics in ATR the ECU will up the duty cycle to reach boost / load target upon gear changes. Its not the solenoid's fault. So after over 80 map revisions its back to MBCS for me.

Tomas, could you explain a bit more in detail the flow control valve?

I use really high ramp limiters in my maps, but have been able to pull spikes out using the DBW table and throttle plate, thanks to suggestions from cld12pk2go and atvfreek, btw.

[Evan@COBB]

Tuned my 35R with the COBB EBCS, no problems at all.

Just sayin...

[rfinkle2]

Interesting routing of the vac lines vs. Grimmspeed as well.

@atvfreek, @phate, @Bucker, @Boost_creep, @cld12pk2go, @Ziggo... check out the routing of vac lines vs. Grimmspeed:

https://static.cobbtuning.com/cobbtu...structions.pdf

[Ziggo]

Not really any different, just uses IM pressure to actuate the WG instead of a source on the hot side. I still am not a fan of using the IM for a pressure source since its applying vacuum to the WG. It won't cause issues with everything, but has damaged diaphragms in the past on other platforms.

[OneBAMFpog]

@MindCrimes Can probably tell you why he is switching to a Cobb from the GS after dialing mine in.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tomas Too sensitive? What does that mean? Passages in the 3/2 way valve are too small? It reacts too quickly? I use a flow control valve on mine. Which I bet is the manufacturer that makes the Cobb one (Mac). I use a flow control valve to imitate a rectrictor or orifice. Boost spikes are a problem but that's because unless you zero out all dynamics in ATR the ECU will up the duty cycle to reach boost / load target upon gear changes. Its not the solenoid's fault. So after over 80 map revisions its back to MBCS for me.

at what point, turbo size, does this become a problem? I have no issues with my Grimm on a GT28. no spikes...very slight overrun that is totally controllable. Running a boost targeting tune so IDK how a load tune would react but I would guess even smoother since the ECU is built for load tuning and reacts much quicker to load error than boost error.

I pledge to NEVER EVER EVER run an MBC.

[Eighty8]

The Grimmspeed and Cobb EBCS use the same MAC valve, don't they?

[breakfstincluded]

I has one from cobb first thursday, it's going to sit in it's box until i figure out my smoking shit

geoff also told me about push lock hose they recommend for higher output applications

comes with tons of hoes

[OneBAMFpog]

Originally Posted by breakfstincluded I has one from cobb first thursday, it's going to sit in it's box until i figure out my smoking shit geoff also told me about push lock hose they recommend for higher output applications comes with tons of hoes

Yeah, I had a good amount of extra hose when I was done.

[Seatime3]

Originally Posted by phate Interested to hear results from any BT folks who run this in the future. The Grimm EBCS has been tossed to the side all too often on BT setups since they are just way too sensitive. I would love to see a viable EBCS option for those folks.

Will let you know tomorrow how it goes. I'm at Cobb tuning Surgeline in Portland getting my car tuned. They wanted to do their 3 port so I said sure. I'm going gtx3071 ewg.... Should be fun. I originally had a Hallman manual. But if they want 3 port cool, they are tuning it lol

[Seatime3]

Originally Posted by Evan@COBB Tuned my 35R with the COBB EBCS, no problems at all. Just sayin...

Evan, I saw your dynos up on the database, are you going to be running more boost after some miles or are you happy? How is drive ability?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Perrin is a solid company, but there were 2 generations of ebcs, the first of which had a few issues. To the best of my knowledge, Perrin has always taken care of any issues that arise, and their newest bcs has been around for quite a while. Tomas, could you explain a bit more in detail the flow control valve? I use really high ramp limiters in my maps, but have been able to pull spikes out using the DBW table and throttle plate, thanks to suggestions from cld12pk2go and atvfreek, btw.

hahah

I used to use high ramp limits [20] and set WGDC low, and actually suggested it...but on my latest maps I use 5 for a ramp limit which controls my DC very nicely. It does require that your WGDC is tuned very exactly but prevents any underruns overruns and spikes.

I would guess the smaller the turbo the lower your ramp limit would need to be b/c they respond very quickly.

just throwing this out there. I LOVE my EBC.

Originally Posted by Ziggo Not really any different, just uses IM pressure to actuate the WG instead of a source on the hot side. I still am not a fan of using the IM for a pressure source since its applying vacuum to the WG. It won't cause issues with everything, but has damaged diaphragms in the past on other platforms.

I'd say since you are attempting to control boost pressure get the source at the turbo...why wait to see what that pressure is like at the IM after 10' of IC piping???

my source is at the compressor outlet and IMO the only way to do it. Maybe the guys having trouble are using IM as their source??

Originally Posted by KiddMnKy Yeah, I had a good amount of extra hose when I was done.

make your boost controller hose routing as short as humanly possible.

[Ziggo]

Yeah I am really in awe of the issues people have with the 3 ports. It's been a painless experience with every one I have tuned. Back before we had access to the ramp limiters and error compensation tables it was a real headache (I remember you had a time of it with oscillations back then) , but these days it seems to work great.


Zigatapatalka

[VitViper]

For people buying those ECBS, why are you paying $115 for a $30 valve?

[breakfstincluded]

ah because I got a one time 35% discount and there's nothing else at cobb i could use

and because racecar after cobb tune

[OneBAMFpog]

Originally Posted by VitViper For people buying those ECBS, why are you paying $115 for a $30 valve?

I too got a discount.

[cld12pk2go]

FYI, when I had my GS's boost source from a < 12'' line direct from my ATP boost tap in the silicone hose at the turbo discharge, I found that I had to greatly restrict my dynamics tables to prevent oscillatory behavior.

However, when I Tee'd in my manual boost gage to the ATP tap boost source line (to measure my pressure drop across my small IC via the delta between the manage gage and my MAP sensor) which has about ~10-12 ft line I found that the extra volume and restriction greatly smoothed out the response and allowed me to increase my dynamics tables by about 3-4x.

I also observed that the boost gage pressure would be erratic due to the pressure pulsing in the plumbing at that point (even though my boost source line has a damn near microscopic restrictor pill in it to dampen this. I guess the harmonics are causing that from the air coming out of the compressor at 50-100k rpms. I can only assume that what the ECBS saw without the Tee'd in line was more erratic and thus caused a lot of "noise chasing" response.

Once I get my IC installed, I plan to experiment running my ECBS boost source from my IM, where the measured boost will be much more stable/filtered, which I anticipate would provide more stable/predictable control.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go FYI, when I had my GS's boost source from a < 12'' line direct from my ATP boost tap in the silicone hose at the turbo discharge, I found that I had to greatly restrict my dynamics tables to prevent oscillatory behavior. However, when I Tee'd in my manual boost gage to the ATP tap boost source line (to measure my pressure drop across my small IC via the delta between the manage gage and my MAP sensor) which has about ~10-12 ft line I found that the extra volume and restriction greatly smoothed out the response and allowed me to increase my dynamics tables by about 3-4x. I also observed that the boost gage pressure would be erratic due to the pressure pulsing in the plumbing at that point (even though my boost source line has a damn near microscopic restrictor pill in it to dampen this. I guess the harmonics are causing that from the air coming out of the compressor at 50-100k rpms. I can only assume that what the ECBS saw without the Tee'd in line was more erratic and thus caused a lot of "noise chasing" response. Once I get my IC installed, I plan to experiment running my ECBS boost source from my IM, where the measured boost will be much more stable/filtered, which I anticipate would provide more stable/predictable control.

I was wondering if using the IM as a source would help smooth out the volatility that some people experience with the 3 port. (kinda why I posted the link to the install instructions).

I also went through one of Jeff Harman's books where he suggests what Ziggo does as far as the effect on the wg that tapping IM has.

If my scanner was not broken from the recent power surge from a lightening storm I had (no protector on my scanner ftl)... I would scan the page...will revisit after getting my new scanner.

[kritz]

@rfinkle2

Off topic warning!>>> Put one of these in bro!


Leviton 51120-1 Whole House Surge Suppressor / Surge Protector - Smarthome

[Dano]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go FYI, when I had my GS's boost source from a < 12'' line direct from my ATP boost tap in the silicone hose at the turbo discharge, I found that I had to greatly restrict my dynamics tables to prevent oscillatory behavior. However, when I Tee'd in my manual boost gage to the ATP tap boost source line (to measure my pressure drop across my small IC via the delta between the manage gage and my MAP sensor) which has about ~10-12 ft line I found that the extra volume and restriction greatly smoothed out the response and allowed me to increase my dynamics tables by about 3-4x. I also observed that the boost gage pressure would be erratic due to the pressure pulsing in the plumbing at that point (even though my boost source line has a damn near microscopic restrictor pill in it to dampen this. I guess the harmonics are causing that from the air coming out of the compressor at 50-100k rpms. I can only assume that what the ECBS saw without the Tee'd in line was more erratic and thus caused a lot of "noise chasing" response. Once I get my IC installed, I plan to experiment running my ECBS boost source from my IM, where the measured boost will be much more stable/filtered, which I anticipate would provide more stable/predictable control.

hum...interesting point about the possibility of a more stable boost reading at the IM. This has been augured since the beginning of turbo cars I suppose and it will continue. Driver311 and I went through this a year or so ago and I ended up in the compressor outlet camp while he is in the IM camp....lol it never hurts to revisit ones philosophy I suppose.

I would give it try but my tune is solid now and I am sure it would mean a complete reworking of all my boost control tables arrrrrgh....maybe not...I'll wait to see what you come up with

[rfinkle2]

The below is contained in the following book (which is excellent, imo, btw):

Amazon.com: Turbocharging Performance Handbook (Motorbooks Workshop) (9780760328057): Jeff Hartman: Books

Amazon.com: Turbocharging Performance Handbook (Motorbooks Workshop) (9780760328057): Jeff Hartman: Books
Amazon.com: Turbocharging Performance Handbook (Motorbooks Workshop) (9780760328057): Jeff Hartman: Books

[VitViper]

You guys should ask Cobb to expose the frequency parameter for the boost control in the Mazda ECU. From dealing with these ports I've found that not all like the same frequency. I have valves like 31hz, some like 22hz. Generally if you get to a frequency that is too high for the solenoid, you get erratic boost control and very touchy boost response when you change the duty cycle.

If I were to guess based on what other ECU's run by default, I'd say the stock frequency is around 30-33hz, but who knows, Cobb needs to find this and expose it. Could be way higher (but given Cobb using the Mac Solenoid for their EBCS, I'm guessing around 30-33hz as I found most of those valves don't usually like more than that).

[Dano]

great idea and apparently there are those who have had trouble with a GS, but there is evidence supporting the GS EBCS as being easy to dial in on at least a beener S3/GT28 so I'd day the GS is at the same freq as the ECU or very close. It wasn't hard to dial in my setup so it can't be that hard lol

@David@COBB
@Evan@COBB

what valve do you use in your EBCS and/or what frequency does the ECU use for comm to the EBC?....full disclosure here pretty please.

[Fatguy729]

I'm sure the Cobb is a high quality piece superior to any other options...


Oh, plus this is a repost

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ubishi-114010/

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by Dano great idea and apparently there are those who have had trouble with a GS, but there is evidence supporting the GS EBCS as being easy to dial in on at least a beener S3/GT28 so I'd day the GS is at the same freq as the ECU or very close. It wasn't hard to dial in my setup so it can't be that hard lol @David@COBB @Evan@COBB what valve do you use in your EBCS and/or what frequency does the ECU use for comm to the EBC?....full disclosure here pretty please.

They are using a Mac valve, it looks exactly like the 3 ports I use on Hondas, looks like they had Mac simply add a harness that fits the Mazda connector, where as I normally wire them in to the ECU manually as most Hondas do not come with boost from the factory (and hence no EBCS).

Also, the frequency parameter is nice to have is it does control the response of the solenoid -- for example, you could set it up to where you have much more granular boost control -- say, 5% duty cycle per 1psi of boost, etc.