Need help deciding on Turbo

[55suarod]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post so please take it easy on me! I've been reading for quite a while now, trying to educate myself on the various options that exist for our platform. I am now stuck on what turbo to choose. Part of me says to keep it as straight forward as possible so going BNR K04 reman or S1, but the other half says go S3/CST4.

My mods consist of HPFP, CAI+ TIP, Axle-back + res delete, and a RMM. I intend to add a FMIC or TMIC in the future, but am hesitant about adding in a catted DP (or non-catted RP) because of emissions. I haven't even tuned my car yet and am happy as f*** with it which makes me think that a K04/S1 with my current mods and a AP+Freektune would suffice.

My car is my DD and I genuinely enjoy the crap out of it! Since I don't intend to take it much further, do any of you think I could take advantage of the S3/CST4 with my mods? or would it be a waste?

P.S. if i go with the S3/CST4 I would buy the 3port EBCS as recommended.

Any insight is greatly appreciated!

[LBC_Shadow]

I think that the stock K04 is very fun to have in the car. I have been able get 23psi on open boost with only a high pressure fuel pump, Cobb Air intake, and 3" exhaust putting out 280WHP. In my opinion you don't need to upgrade this bad boy til you blow it. I have not looked into the turbos you listed but i was going to get a Corksport CTS6 or a GTX, leaning more towards the CTS6, but i was looking to be in the 350WHP range and my turbo upgrade would not be til I blow my own. I personally still need a real tune as I only have the free ones along with my accessport.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by LBC_Shadow In my opinion you don't need to upgrade this bad boy til you blow it.

Got quite a bit of play and my seals are shot. I'm also losing a crapload of oil. If i do stick to the BNR k04 remanufactured i will get the CPE TMIC.

[LBC_Shadow]

For oil loss I went from the 14mm banjo bolt to a 22mm from Damound sport or something like that. It really really helped a lot. https://damondmotorsports.com/produc...kaAvQSEALw_wcB


I BNR S3 is also a good Turbo i would get.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by LBC_Shadow For oil loss I went from the 14mm banjo bolt to a 22mm from Damound sport... I BNR S3 is also a good Turbo i would get.

Yea I already got the DM Banjo, replaced the PCV, and run Rotella T6 - no success man. It's time to make the switch.

Yes I have read S3 everywhere, yet some argue CST4, which is about the same price, is closer to the S4 top end but S3 spool.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by LBC_Shadow I think that the stock K04 is very fun to have in the car. I have been able get 23psi on open boost with only a high pressure fuel pump, Cobb Air intake, and 3" exhaust putting out 280WHP. In my opinion you don't need to upgrade this bad boy til you blow it. I have not looked into the turbos you listed but i was going to get a Corksport CTS6 or a GTX, leaning more towards the CTS6, but i was looking to be in the 350WHP range and my turbo upgrade would not be til I blow my own. I personally still need a real tune as I only have the free ones along with my accessport.

I really hope that you've got an aftermarket 3.0 - 4.0Bar MAP sensor. The OEM sensor can only read up to 2.5Bar (about 21.5psi at STP). If your AP is reading 23psi and you have the OEM sensor, then you actually have no idea what amount of boost your turbo is generating, you have an unsafe tune, and it's just a matter of time before you pop your motor.

[LBC_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Vansquish I really hope that you've got an aftermarket 3.0 - 4.0Bar MAP sensor. The OEM sensor can only read up to 2.5Bar (about 21.5psi at STP). If your AP is reading 23psi and you have the OEM sensor, then you actually have no idea what amount of boost your turbo is generating, you have an unsafe tune, and it's just a matter of time before you pop your motor.

I rolled the car and it blew up... Have pics if you wanna see

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by LBC_Shadow I rolled the car and it blew up... Have pics if you wanna see

Not interested in pics, but am interested in avoiding false info. There was no way you knew your midrange boost to be 23 psi and not higher on the stock sensor.

I ran a mechanical boost gauge and always felt comfortable with boost levels. It will show boost beyond 22.5. I kept peak boost with my tune and mods at 18-19 psi with taper.

If you didn’t have a boost gauge, the cut you were getting in another thread was saving your ass because you were far exceeding OEM boost/fuel cut. My guess is that the open line from ECBS to your turbo was preventing the ECBS from regulating boost. That was dangerous, like a manual boost controller with no limit.

As others have said you can run 23 psi earlier in the power band, back around 4,000 rpm, but you had better taper it to 15-16 psi at redline or the little K04 turbo will turn into a flamethrower.

But, high boost down low just bends rods and shreds tires. The torque goes up too high if you bring on that much boost in the 3,000 rpm range. Might look good on a Dyno chart, but not good for the car.

Probably ought to think about whether giving out engine tuning advice is a good idea.

[AntimonyER]

You are probably going to be leaving a good bit of power on the table without at least a catted downpipe if you go CST4 or S3. I just installed my CST4 (with a CS catted downpipe and HPFP, had a CS SRI already) and don't throw any CEL, if that is what you are worried about. Also, getting a freektune, and on the base map with low boost, the 2000-3500 RPM range felt kinda sluggish compared to before the CST4/HPFP/Downpipe install, AND I had done a long overdue intake valve cleaning during the install. If you are set on no downpipe/high flow cat, you might be happier just getting an S1 to just avoid the seal issue.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by AntimonyER You are probably going to be leaving a good bit of power on the table without at least a catted downpipe if you go CST4 or S3. I just installed my CST4 (with a CS catted downpipe and HPFP, had a CS SRI already) and don't throw any CEL, if that is what you are worried about..... If you are set on no downpipe/high flow cat, you might be happier just getting an S1 to just avoid the seal issue.

DP is TBD, but if I do purchase it won't be for another couple of months. I have read that we should be able to pass emissions, but the visual inspection may fail (if i got the catless RP). Where I'm at, it's hit or miss. Sometimes they actually look at the camera and other times they don't. I wouldn't want to uninstall the RP just to pass emissions.

Also, what seal issues are you referring to?

Lastly, can you provide input on my inquiry below (replied to tegxsi)?

[tegxsi]

Don't bother with S1/rebuild.
Can't go wrong with S3 or CST4. A conservative tune will put the K04 to shame. Yes, they are slower to spool up but the area gained below the curve and pulling hard to redline makes up for it.

[Bertospeed3]

Originally Posted by tegxsi Can't go wrong with S3 or CST4. A conservative tune will put the K04 to shame.

+1

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by tegxsi Don't bother with S1/rebuild. Can't go wrong with S3 or CST4. A conservative tune will put the K04 to shame. Yes, they are slower to spool up but the area gained below the curve and pulling hard to redline makes up for it.

You signature shows you had/have the CS turbo. Is it really as simple as turbo kit & ap+tune? You also recommended the EBCS on another thread, is it a must? When looking into the EBCS I saw that I can't run 3port without a tune, so would that mean I have to complete the install and flash my car before moving it?

Last question, since I do intend to purchase the ETS or CPE TMIC, a new BPV, and knowing myself, I will eventually go for a catted DP, should I just get the AP & Freektune OTS+ until I finish with those last mods?

Right now, $1900 for CST4, JBR EBCS, and AP+Freektune is maxing out my budget.

[tegxsi]

Originally Posted by 55suarod You signature shows you had/have the CS turbo. Is it really as simple as turbo kit & ap+tune? You also recommended the EBCS on another thread, is it a must? When looking into the EBCS I saw that I can't run 3port without a tune, so would that mean I have to complete the install and flash my car before moving it? Last question, since I do intend to purchase the ETS or CPE TMIC, a new BPV, and knowing myself, I will eventually go for a catted DP, should I just get the AP & Freektune OTS+ until I finish with those last mods? Right now, $1900 for CST4, JBR EBCS, and AP+Freektune is maxing out my budget.

You can use the stock 2-port EBCS but that still requires tuning. CS includes a restrictor pill that allows you to run in 2-port mode. The boost control isn't great and I had trouble tuning out inconsistencies. You might as well go 3-port configuration and have beautiful boost control. lol

I believe Freektune OTS+ is only for stock turbo. You need a custom tune for aftermarket turbos. Tuners will send you a safe base map based on your mods to make the car drive able.

I see your dilemma... You can just install the AP + turbo and drive around on wastegate spring pressure until get your other mods in. It won't be punchy like the K04 but it will pull nicely at higher revs.

So... I also have to deal with emissions in the future. I have a early revision of the CS turbo that CREEPS. I believe CS has made improvements in their current turbos. For this reason, kept the stock DP + test pipe setup to control the creep and keep it looking stockish. I'm content with this exhaust setup.

[AntimonyER]

Seals - turbo seals. The S1 is basically a K04 with the possibility of seal failure removed.

With the bigger turbo, you will need a base map from a tuner before firing up for the first time. They will take your full mod list and write you a map that is very conservative, until they can get some datalogs. So you will need to purchase the AP and tune along with the turbo. I believe as far as adding mods later, you can purchase a lower priced update vs. a full price tune.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by AntimonyER Seals - turbo seals. The S1 is basically a K04 with the possibility of seal failure removed. With the bigger turbo, you will need a base map from a tuner before firing up for the first time. They will take your full mod list and write you a map that is very conservative, until they can get some datalogs. So you will need to purchase the AP and tune along with the turbo. I believe as far as adding mods later, you can purchase a lower priced update vs. a full price tune.

Thanks man, I misread you're comment about the seals. That is exactly why I'm switching out the K04.

Also appreciate the clarification regarding the tune, ofcourse I will work with my tuner to get everything buttoned up accordingly.

[Jeff23spl]

There is some stuff said here that may need attention: LBC_Shadow Stock k04 at 23 psi is a peak midrange rpm results. it won't hold it to redline Your car is making a huge amount of torque above oem but a lot less added hp. This amount of mid range torque is fun but it is also a nice way to be looking for a new engine in a near futur if there is nothing to control knock and BAT...
A slightly larger turbo will hold pressure to redline and even if it is set below your 23, it will make a more powerfull setup with less stress on the internals. The k04 is already near it's flow limits with stock tune, this is why you get more gain on torque than hp...

The risks of a bnr s3 or cst4 is the temptation to add too much boost on the stock engine. It need to be dialed down for longevity (raison for creep) and stuff will last. But some peoples like me, cannot resist to the temptation to raise boost...So if you cannot afford a new engine and lose your DD for a while, you need to remain careful.
My stock bloc handled a gt2871 abuse for a very long time until i pushed it too far...And it is about the same range of size of the bnrs3-4 and cst4...

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl The risks of a bnr s3 or cst4 is the temptation to add too much boost on the stock engine. It need to be dialed down for longevity (raison for creep) and stuff will last. But some peoples like me, cannot resist to the temptation to raise boost...So if you cannot afford a new engine and lose your DD for a while, you need to remain careful. My stock bloc handled a gt2871 abuse for a very long time until i pushed it too far...And it is about the same range of size of the bnrs3-4 and cst4...

Thanks for the input! Knowing myself, i too would want to add more boost after some time. But as previously mentioned, if I think my speed 3 is fast on the K04 with minimal mods and no tune, I think I'm going to be blown out the water with a new turbo and a proper tune!

Regardless, i just have to survive a few months before being able to drop more money into my car. Right now I'm limited to 2 Gs because I had some work done in my newly purchased home.

[tegxsi]

hmm...LBC_Shadow AP reads 23psi?? The stock 2.5bar maxes out at 22. You really don't know the actual amount of boost beyond that. How do you not hit boost cut on OTS maps?

[Vansquish]

If you rolled your car and blew it up, how are you still asking questions about it and complaining about the car's stuttering performance?

Post datalogs.

[55suarod]

Just purchased the CST4 and JBR 3port EBCS. Last week I got my AP and BT freektune package. Let the fun begin!

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by 55suarod Just purchased the CST4 and JBR 3port EBCS. Last week I got my AP and BT freektune package. Let the fun begin!

It should be like day and night difference.

[BMA94]

Originally Posted by 55suarod Just purchased the CST4 and JBR 3port EBCS. Last week I got my AP and BT freektune package. Let the fun begin!

So what is it like dude?! I'm deciding whether to go big turbo myself. I have the Stage 3 COBB package.

FMIC
Full Turboback exhaust
HPFP
SF Intake
XLE BPV
AP V3

Running basic OTS stage 3 map and I think its quick... considering either a tune or big turbo and not look back!

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by BMA94 So what is it like dude?! I'm deciding whether to go big turbo myself... Running basic OTS stage 3 map and I think its quick... considering either a tune or big turbo and not look back!

Hey man!
Turbo is going in tonight because I was waiting on a part. JBR took longer than expected to ship out my EBCS, it arrives tomorrow.

I already have the bt tune from Freek so once the install is done I'm going to test it. I'll keep you posted.

P.S. i think if you get a tune with your mods you would be pushing more then me. I only have the cs tip/ aem cai, hpfp, and 3port ebcs to go with my turbo and tune. I'm sure a proper freek ots would blow your mind until the K04 goes.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by 55suarod Hey man! Turbo is going in tonight because I was waiting on a part. JBR took longer than expected to ship out my EBCS, it arrives tomorrow. I already have the bt tune from Freek so once the install is done I'm going to test it. I'll keep you posted. P.S. i think if you get a tune with your mods you would be pushing more then me. I only have the cs tip/ aem cai, hpfp, and 3port ebcs to go with my turbo and tune. I'm sure a proper freek ots would blow your mind until the K04 goes.

Sorry about the temporary thread jack. Another poster was feeding people potentially dangerous stuff about K04 boost levels.

I look forward to your report on the big turbo install and tuning.

Originally Posted by BMA94 So what is it like dude?! I'm deciding whether to go big turbo myself. I have the Stage 3 COBB package. FMIC Full Turboback exhaust HPFP SF Intake XLE BPV AP V3 Running basic OTS stage 3 map and I think its quick... considering either a tune or big turbo and not look back!

If you are happy with stage 2 K04 performance (300 whp) on pump gas, and want to avoid the smoking turbo issue, consider BNR-S1. It worked great for me.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Sorry about the temporary thread jack. Another poster was feeding people potentially dangerous stuff about K04 boost levels. I look forward to your report on the big turbo install and tuning. If you are happy with stage 2 K04 performance (300 whp) on pump gas, and want to avoid the smoking turbo issue, consider BNR-S1. It worked great for me.

No problem! Unfortunately I live a pretty busy life so I'm not doing the install myself. However, I'll definitely be posting feedback once my car is done this weekend!

Regarding the s1, I opted out for the CST4 due to the similar pricing while having room for more in the future. I also thought my K04 was fun (as this is my first real fast car), but got convinced by the countless posts saying to just go big(ger) now.

[BMA94]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 If you are happy with stage 2 K04 performance (300 whp) on pump gas, and want to avoid the smoking turbo issue, consider BNR-S1. It worked great for me.

Oh yeah , does it get a bit of power? What about going a bit bigger? I was thinking of selling my car but not getting any bites so might as well jump in and go all in! Loving how fast it is with a stock OTS map though.

I was trying to figure out how much power I was making and COBB put up these numbers (see attached). 39.2% increase in HP and TQ for stage 3. So that would be stock HP 263 + 39.2%? Is that right?

Cheers guys

[55suarod]

Ok so i double checked to make sure i couldn't find this RP. Anyone recognize?

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by 55suarod Ok so i double checked to make sure i couldn't find this RP. Anyone recognize?

Appears to be a resonated race pipe, brand unknown to me.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Appears to be a resonated race pipe, brand unknown to me.

I think its a catalytic converter, see inside pic.

Yea, can't find the brand anywhere. Guess that turbo back is coming sooner than later haha

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by 55suarod I think its a catalytic converter, see inside pic. Yea, can't find the brand anywhere. Guess that turbo back is coming sooner than later haha

It is, but it is not OEM for a MS3.

These were my OEM cats, as removed when I went catless. Secondary cat is on the right. Much larger than your photo.

[55suarod]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 It is, but it is not OEM for a MS3. These were my OEM cats, as removed when I went catless. Secondary cat is on the right.

Yup, i agree. Well i hope this one flows better... already let justin know for my tune.