Who DOESN'T run a Garrett turbo

[Ezekiel81923]

(I did a quick search and didn't find anything, but if I missed it then flame away)

The popular route seems to be the Garrett drop-in kits. And why not, they pretty much come with everything you need.

That said, I've seen a few not running GT(X) turbo's or re-worked K04's. So as far as everyone else, what do you run and why? I've a seen a few options that are MUCH cheaper for the turbo/turbine housing I just don't know what would fit back there and what kind of results you guys are seeing.

[Pseud0logik]

I run a K04 because I'm cheap and lazy.

Search for BNR Stage 3 if you want something different. There are a few guys running that turbo on here. It's a nice step up if you don't want a big turbo but do want 350whp.

[Ezekiel81923]

I do want a BT. The master plan originally included a BNR but the idea graduated to a GTX3071, now I'm exploring other options and am curious what other people have had success running and how "drop-in" those applications were.

[Alpha]

Ultra Efficient Full Race - Borg Warner EFR kit here. It's sick.

Spools like a K04 and makes power like a GTX3076. Win/Win

[Lex]

A BNR is a Garrett

@Daddy Chinkus ran a Precision and Full Race use EFR turbos.

[Voltwings]

im good buddies with a guy whose not a member of this forum but he's going with a fully custom precision 6262. Having a mutual friend of ours make him a custom manifold / v-band downpipe and everything. i wanna say labor and turbo and parts ran him right around $2500-$3000, don't remember exactly since i wasn't nosey and its kinda personal since a mutual friends doing the work. At any rate he has every intention of building the motor and pushing it to about 600 which is way he's paying the big bucks up front. the 6262 is "most closely" comparable to a gt3582r but apparently spools waayy better and even has a better top end o_O... me personally, i have a gt3071 because you cant beat the ease of drop in ( well the install is this weekend so knock on wood ) but to each his own.

[86AmishMs3]

ATP drop in's are the most ideal IMO. Kindof almost like the equivalent of FP turbos for evo's...kinda. ATP drop in turbo's also have a little bit smaller of a hotside. And you only get one selection of AR with the drop in's. If you go T3 or T4 there are much more options on AR's. The smaller AR's definately help keep the turbo spooling quickly, but they do limit flow a bit at top end. But ATP is definately the best choice for a budget turbo while keeping things as close to stock as possible.

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 If you go T3 or T4 there are much more options on AR's. The smaller AR's definately help keep the turbo spooling quickly, but they do limit flow a bit at top end.

And that's partially why I raised the question. I have a T3 flanged exhaust manifold. Stock location, but different flaneg, so I can put a lot back there (size permitting). Precision offers the .48 (too small I think) and .63 (which @Daddy Chinkus rocked and did 400+ whp and tq) while Garrett has a .63, .82 and 1.06. Not sure if Precision offers a v-band turbine housing for some of their turbos but if not I can always find one. That said, the 6031 is like ~$800 less expensive for some reason. I'd go with the ball bearing version. And from what I've read the Precision outflows the GTX.

So besides not wanting to drop $500-700 on a new manifold, why don't people go that route more often?

[Voltwings]

because i already have an intercooler / intake / downpipe that sit in the stock location that i dont want to have to replace / have someone make custom. Not that im opposed to the pain in the ass a little custom work brings becuase i have no doubt in my mind that my friend with the 6262 is going to eat my 3071 alive, i just like the simplicity of parts i KNOW will work together sometimes you know. If precision offered their turbos with our stock DP flange and coolant lines like garrett (ATP) does, i dont doubt theyd become an equally popular option.

[dooderek]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel81923 And that's partially why I raised the question. I have a T3 flanged exhaust manifold. Stock location, but different flaneg, so I can put a lot back there (size permitting). Precision offers the .48 (too small I think) and .63 (which @Daddy Chinkus rocked and did 400+ whp and tq) while Garrett has a .63, .82 and 1.06. Not sure if Precision offers a v-band turbine housing for some of their turbos but if not I can always find one. That said, the 6031 is like ~$800 less expensive for some reason. I'd go with the ball bearing version. And from what I've read the Precision outflows the GTX. So besides not wanting to drop $500-700 on a new manifold, why don't people go that route more often?

alot of people dont want to try new things/scared/headaches of doing a little bit extra work.

[Ezekiel81923]

Also a non-issue for me since I'm keeping the TMIC and converting a DP to v-band. Though perhaps there are some things I'm overlooking as far as customization to make shit fit

I also don't really know how other companies turbo's break down as far as how well they'd work for our application. The 6262 is "650hp capable" which seems overkill to me. I also don't know if that'd spool as fast as a GTX3071 (I'm BT'ing my DD so quick spool is important). The 6031 and 5557 are the two that make the most sense to me with my limited knowledge of their line but for all I know that could be way off as well. And Turbonetics I'm even more lost.

[Voltwings]

Well thy guy doing my friends build has put the 6262 on any car that will let him haha he's a fanboy for sure, but rightly so, its a well proven turbo and based on his experience he says the turbo will be at full spool by 3700 rpm. Personally im with you on the spool thats why i got a 3071, but yeah id say the 6262 should be at the top of your list but one of the turbos just smaller than that should be good for DD and power, the 6031 for example like you said. But yeah seeing as how you are already planning on going with the V-band downpipe id say do it.

Originally Posted by 4G63 There is no reason to run anything over a GTX3071 at this point. The fuel isn't there unless you supplement is with something like Erich did. A 6262 is straight retarded on a MS3 unless that was going on a MS6 it would be better

for what its worth, itll be 400 whp on 15 psi for now so thats plenty safe and my buddy has every intention of building his motor and going for 600 so the fuel or whatever its going to take doesnt bother him. To say its retarded is a bit ignorant, but retarded on a DD for someone who has no intention of building the motor, yes, ill give you that one.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Well thy guy doing my friends build has put the 6262 on any car that will let him haha he's a fanboy for sure, but rightly so, its a well proven turbo and based on his experience he says the turbo will be at full spool by 3700 rpm. Personally im with you on the spool thats why i got a 3071, but yeah id say the 6262 should be at the top of your list but one of the turbos just smaller than that should be good for DD and power, the 6031 for example like you said. But yeah seeing as how you are already planning on going with the V-band downpipe id say do it. for what its worth, itll be 400 whp on 15 psi for now so thats plenty safe and my buddy has every intention of building his motor and going for 600 so the fuel or whatever its going to take doesnt bother him. To say its retarded is a bit ignorant, but retarded on a DD for someone who has no intention of building the motor, yes, ill give you that one.

No one is making 400whp on 15psi on this motor without crazy compression

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 No one is making 400whp on 15psi on this motor without crazy compression

400 whp is achieveable at 19 psi on a 35r and the 6262 is more efficient than that. Like i said, the build wont happen for another week or two so right now this is just specualtion based off compressor maps and the builders experience. 15 psi it may not be, but it wont be very much more i have a feeling.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by Voltwings 400 whp is achieveable at 19 psi on a 35r and the 6262 is more efficient than that. Like i said, the build wont happen for another week or two so right now this is just specualtion based off compressor maps and the builders experience. 15 psi it may not be, but it wont be very much more i have a feeling.

I think there is a little bit of a misconception. I had the same misconception unil engineering. You can only get so efficient...then you can't anymore.

You have to think of compressors in flow rates and efficiencies. What I'm saying is if you're flowing 260g/s on a k04 at 20 psi @ 60% efficiency which is roughly 300whp with a good fuel and timing map. Then with a 75% efficiency turbo that's 16psi. With a 80% efficient (and that is extremely efficient) youre looking at 15psi.


Those are ball park figures. But they are close enough. Sorry to burst your bubble. But no size turbo at 15 psi on stock head, stock compression will net you 400. To reach 400whp...you need about 350-375g/s. do the math and you're looking in the realm of 22-24psi (which is consistant with what we've seen on the platform for stock head and comp ratio and decent timing) will get you there. I can show you the math later. But basically you're calculating the flow rate of the engine at that pressure ratio.

By the way with all the dyno plots I've seen this pretty much matches law, theory to reality

Btw even at 19psi i don't see anyone making 400whp on stock heads. You'd have to run crazy timing.

[Fatguy729]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Well thy guy doing my friends build has put the 6262 on any car that will let him haha he's a fanboy for sure, but rightly so, its a well proven turbo and based on his experience he says the turbo will be at full spool by 3700 rpm. Personally im with you on the spool thats why i got a 3071, but yeah id say the 6262 should be at the top of your list but one of the turbos just smaller than that should be good for DD and power, the 6031 for example like you said. But yeah seeing as how you are already planning on going with the V-band downpipe id say do it. for what its worth, itll be 400 whp on 15 psi for now so thats plenty safe and my buddy has every intention of building his motor and going for 600 so the fuel or whatever its going to take doesnt bother him. To say its retarded is a bit ignorant, but retarded on a DD for someone who has no intention of building the m otor, yes, ill give you that one.

LOL

the fuel or whatever? LOL read more. The point was that you will have to make drastic changes to the fuel system to achieve high hp... Our stock fuel system, even with upgraded cdfp internals, are incapable of supporting what you speak of. 5th port injection or meth will be reqired.

Someone who is planning on minimal custom work should not go this route.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by Fatguy729 LOL the fuel or whatever? LOL read more. The point was that you will have to make drastic changes to the fuel system to achieve high hp... Our stock fuel system, even with upgraded cdfp internals, are incapable of supporting what you speak of. 5th port injection or meth will be reqired. Someone who is planning on minimal custom work should not go this route.

dont assume i havent read, the fuel wasnt the point so i didnt feel the need to elaborate. We have already replaced the in tank pump and are experimenting with 5th port.

[4G63]

There is no reason to run anything over a GTX3071 at this point. The fuel isn't there unless you supplement is with something like Erich did. A 6262 is straight retarded on a MS3 unless that was going on a MS6 it would be better

[ccspeed3]

I'm working on piecing together all of the parts for my turbo, I went with the PTE 5557 and it seems pretty straight foward so far but i havent got to the install yet.

[NoTraction]

s256 ftw!

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by NoTraction s256 ftw!

got a buddy with a fully built / ported head / cammed / 100% e85 cobalt only doing 550 whp with that turbo on 30 psi :/ i feel those are slightly over rated... especially for the lag it as, shit i can jump a car ahead of him easily on the stock k04 and it takes till the end of 4th almost for him to get ahead of me... granted hes pulling hard when he does.

[tooslow10]

i got a great deal on mine, so it was all somewhat "custom"..i believe the style of exh mani is log style(?), turbonetics 50 trim turbo with a .62 housing, 3" catless dp/tp combo to single exit exhaust, 3.5" maf housing and huge intercooler. lol. as far as dyno numbers go, it was on a mustang dyno (heartbreaker) and put down almost 405 whp (prob 90-ish temps in the shop) and the same tq..at 24 psi.. do some engineering math to translate to dynojet numbers and they r very high..timing was around 17* at dyno time. car has direct port meth also, and straight 93. no e.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by tooslow10 i got a great deal on mine, so it was all somewhat "custom"..i believe the style of exh mani is log style(?), turbonetics 50 trim turbo with a .62 housing, 3" catless dp/tp combo to single exit exhaust, 3.5" maf housing and huge intercooler. lol. as far as dyno numbers go, it was on a mustang dyno (heartbreaker) and put down almost 405 whp (prob 90-ish temps in the shop) and the same tq..at 24 psi.. do some engineering math to translate to dynojet numbers and they r very high..timing was around 17* at dyno time. car has direct port meth also, and straight 93. no e.

Im down in Houston, would love to see your set up, sounds like its making pretty sick power. The guy with the 6262 is getting his work done in Humble so maybe we'll swing your way while its getting broken in.

[tooslow10]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Im down in Houston, would love to see your set up, sounds like its making pretty sick power. The guy with the 6262 is getting his work done in Humble so maybe we'll swing your way while its getting broken in.

i live in the woodlands area, always down to check out others cool set ups. i want to put it on adynojet just to see what it does, because vd numbers off oneof my recent logs was almost 500..i don't believe it, maybe around 450ish. feels real good tho.

edit 1: pm a nikka when urclose
edit 2:@rfinkle2 , was that power on a dynojet, mustang, vd?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by tooslow10 i live in the woodlands area, always down to check out others cool set ups. i want to put it on adynojet just to see what it does, because vd numbers off oneof my recent logs was almost 500..i don't believe it, maybe around 450ish. feels real good tho. edit 1: pm a nikka when urclose edit 2:@rfinkle2 , was that power on a dynojet, mustang, vd?

cld12pk2go was a good bit above 400 with meth and e85 (dynojet) - thread linked:
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...7-9wtq-110833/

and I believe the other 2 to be numbers from VD w/ cf of 1.01.

[mituc]

Probably you can make 400whp with 15PSI if you rev up to like 8500-9000rpm, I don't know.
Don't forged that the boost is measured in the intake manifold. So no matter the turbo, that boost in the IM is given by the amount of air pushed to the IM. So at the same RPM, 15PSI on the k04 is the same thing as 15PSI on any larger turbo.
But, power means decently high torque at higher RPM, and at higher RPM the air from the IM is "eaten" up quicker because the pistons are moving fasters, therefore the valves are opening and closing faster and the air and fuel are burnt faster, so to sustain that boost the air flow rate needs to be higher. And the flow is the problem with the smaller turbo's. That's why some people tend to say that "20PSI on the K04 is different than 20PSI with a larger turbo" - because with the K04 you can't push 20PSI past like 4500rpm because you're going to push 20PSI of flames, while a larger turbo can push 20PSI up to the red line.

Now, when choosing a larger turbo - think wise. Put everything on paper, see how much money you're willing to invest, make sure you know what you want from the new setup. A 2871 ot gtx2856 will spool faster but may need to work harder at high RPM. A 3071 is probably ideal (GTX is even better) if you want both fast spool and high top-end power, while the 3076 or gt35 are supposed to be used in higher revving engines (and to rev higher on a 2.3DISI engine you need to remove the VVT, put new lighter internals, and so on).
Probably the 3071R/GTX3071 series are a bit too much for a stock engine (2871 and gtx2856 are probably the best for a DD with stock engine), but at least the GTX still spools decently low (around 3100-3300) and you have some extra head room if you decide to rebuild your engine with stronger internals. If the GTX2856 was available when I acquired my gtx3071 I would have had a hard time deciding between them.

So good luck with your choice. Just choose wisely.

[Ezekiel81923]

Well that's pretty much where I'm back to, deciding on a turbo.

I want from staying stock K04 > BNR S3 > GTX3071 > GTX3076 > GTX 3071

And now that I'm pretty much re-doing everything (EWG ex mani, v-band DP, 3.5" SRI/TIP, relocating the ECU) I can fit a lot back there I think. And with a simple reducer from the TIP to the turbo and maybe tweaking the DP slightly I can accomodate a lot of different sized compressors as long as I can get a T3 turbine housing for it.

Thus, I've opened the search again. PTE and Turbonetics are less expensive and equally as reliable it seems I just don't know what PTE/Turbonetics turbo's compare to the 3071/3076 so I was curious what route everyone else took. It is a DD after all, but my goals are still 400hp/400tq on stock internals with quick spool to keep it exciting in traffic.

Seems like either the PTE 6031 or 5557 (billet, BB) would be good choices when it comes to this platform, those appear to be the second most popular choices to the Garrett turbo's thus far.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel81923 Well that's pretty much where I'm back to, deciding on a turbo. I want from staying stock K04 > BNR S3 > GTX3071 > GTX3076 > GTX 3071 And now that I'm pretty much re-doing everything (EWG ex mani, v-band DP, 3.5" SRI/TIP, relocating the ECU) I can fit a lot back there I think. And with a simple reducer from the TIP to the turbo and maybe tweaking the DP slightly I can accomodate a lot of different sized compressors as long as I can get a T3 turbine housing for it. Thus, I've opened the search again. PTE and Turbonetics are less expensive and equally as reliable it seems I just don't know what PTE/Turbonetics turbo's compare to the 3071/3076 so I was curious what route everyone else took. It is a DD after all, but my goals are still 400hp/400tq on stock internals with quick spool to keep it exciting in traffic. Seems like either the PTE 6031 or 5557 (billet, BB) would be good choices when it comes to this platform, those appear to be the second most popular choices to the Garrett turbo's thus far.

IMO, with a 3071 to make 400 hp, you may need some meth and / or e85 and ~24 psi.

cld12pk2go, jacksonms30 and Broxer all have made in the 400 hp range on the 3071 (but @ around 24 psi iirc).

[mituc]

You can make 400whp on pump gas with the 3071 (gtx or not) at about 24PSI but I'm not sure if a stock engine will last long enough to have enough fun with such a setup.

Also, modification such as ECU relocation, exhaust manifold flange changes, and so on may not be really suitable for what people call a DD, I'd rather look at a direct drop-in kit.

So as I previously said, choose wisely.

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by mituc You can make 400whp on pump gas with the 3071 (gtx or not) at about 24PSI but I'm not sure if a stock engine will last long enough to have enough fun with such a setup. Also, modification such as ECU relocation, exhaust manifold flange changes, and so on may not be really suitable for what people call a DD, I'd rather look at a direct drop-in kit. So as I previously said, choose wisely.

It's perfectly suitable...once it's in

Not sure. I was going to be running a 25% E85 mix so I'm sure 400 is attainable with the GTX3071. I'm looking at some comparison charts of the PTE 5557 and 5857 with the 30R and 35R and the PTE offerings look pretty damn good right now.

[tooslow10]

Pulled a log tonight on the hardy, will post vd numbers tomoro with screenshot.

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by tooslow10 Pulled a log tonight on the hardy, will post vd numbers tomoro with screenshot.

Interested in the #'s, your setup is similar to what I'll end up with I think (choice of turbo TBD)

[Ezekiel81923]

Time to wake this up...

Seriously considering the PTE 5557. You can get the 5557 CEA, billet ball bearing 4" ported compressor housing with T3 .63 A/R 3" V-band discharge turbine housing for about the same price as the GTX3071R compressor MINUS turbine housing.

Can't seem to find a reason not to do it. That size compressor housing will work with the JBR SRI/TIP I'm in line to purchase and once I fab a V-band DP it's all a matter of bolting everything up.

I know a few guys used to run these, no sure how many still do, but they're pretty popular with SRT guys it seems. Maybe it's time someone re-introduce PTE to the MS3 world.

[SFWD 1934]

If you are looking at doing a set up like that, I would say at least for the money (being about the same) look at the other EFR units that are available in the T3 foot print. The set up is very clean and easy. I know that there have been issues in the past with the ATP?Garrett wastegates. The Precision units are nice, but sometimes over priced (I have a bunch of friends running them on Honda set ups).

What is your power goal?
What is your boost goal (meaning what are you expecting to boost to hit that power goal, and what are you expecting to run everyday boost wise? Those could work out to be 2 different numbers)
How much are you budgeting for this?

Jason

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by SFWD 1934 If you are looking at doing a set up like that, I would say at least for the money (being about the same) look at the other EFR units that are available in the T3 foot print. The set up is very clean and easy. I know that there have been issues in the past with the ATP?Garrett wastegates. The Precision units are nice, but sometimes over priced (I have a bunch of friends running them on Honda set ups). What is your power goal? What is your boost goal (meaning what are you expecting to boost to hit that power goal, and what are you expecting to run everyday boost wise? Those could work out to be 2 different numbers) How much are you budgeting for this? Jason

Well, it's my DD. I'm not building the block but I'm upgrading just about everything else. EWG Steedspeed ex mani, PnP intake mani, 3.5" intake, 4" TIP, ETS TMIC, 3 bar TMap sensor and all the usual stuff beyond that. The important things to know are the ex mani is T3 flanged and I'm fabbing a 3" v-band DP.

I'll run a 25% E85 mix (not a lot of stations here but there is one 2 miles away so that's all I need)

I'd like to dyno in the low 400's and run in the 11's (I'll track rarely, but once or twice a year it'd be nice, I'll probably even pick up some slicks). Obviously, it being a DD i'd like some pretty quick spool that just keeps pulling to redline.

22-24psi of boost would be ideal I suppose. Again, not trying to blow anything up, still need to get to work in the morning. I know with a GTX 22-24 psi on e85 is good for 400+ but I'm thinking outside the box as far as turbo choice to save some coin. Reliability is also important.

I know a 400whp DD running 24psi is a bit out of the norm but I feel like it's possible so I want to make it happen.

Budget? I dunno. If it costs more I'll wait longer to do it. If it costs less I'll do it sooner. I end up with a big chunk of disposable income every month so I'm not too worried, I'll be smart about it either way,

[ccspeed3]

Originally Posted by Ezekiel81923 Well, it's my DD. I'm not building the block but I'm upgrading just about everything else. EWG Steedspeed ex mani, PnP intake mani, 3.5" intake, 4" TIP, ETS TMIC, 3 bar TMap sensor and all the usual stuff beyond that. The important things to know are the ex mani is T3 flanged and I'm fabbing a 3" v-band DP. I'll run a 25% E85 mix (not a lot of stations here but there is one 2 miles away so that's all I need) I'd like to dyno in the low 400's and run in the 11's (I'll track rarely, but once or twice a year it'd be nice, I'll probably even pick up some slicks). Obviously, it being a DD i'd like some pretty quick spool that just keeps pulling to redline. 22-24psi of boost would be ideal I suppose. Again, not trying to blow anything up, still need to get to work in the morning. I know with a GTX 22-24 psi on e85 is good for 400+ but I'm thinking outside the box as far as turbo choice to save some coin. Reliability is also important. I know a 400whp DD running 24psi is a bit out of the norm but I feel like it's possible so I want to make it happen. Budget? I dunno. If it costs more I'll wait longer to do it. If it costs less I'll do it sooner. I end up with a big chunk of disposable income every month so I'm not too worried, I'll be smart about it either way,

Damn thats just about the same setup im in the process of building now

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by SFWD 1934 If you are looking at doing a set up like that, I would say at least for the money (being about the same) look at the other EFR units that are available in the T3 foot print. The set up is very clean and easy. I know that there have been issues in the past with the ATP?Garrett wastegates. The Precision units are nice, but sometimes over priced (I have a bunch of friends running them on Honda set ups). What is your power goal? What is your boost goal (meaning what are you expecting to boost to hit that power goal, and what are you expecting to run everyday boost wise? Those could work out to be 2 different numbers) How much are you budgeting for this? Jason

When are all of these turbos going to be available?

I would consider ewg if the turbo justified it. I just can't see bothering with all of the fab work unless the power band is there.

[SFWD 1934]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 When are all of these turbos going to be available? I would consider ewg if the turbo justified it. I just can't see bothering with all of the fab work unless the power band is there.

Rob,

A bunch of the T3 units are available. Let me know which one you are interested in and I will get you price.

Jason

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by SFWD 1934 Rob, A bunch of the T3 units are available. Let me know which one you are interested in and I will get you price. Jason

I'm also looking @ the s200 (aka s256) compressor map and am really looking for ~400 hp.

Can you quickly school me a bit on what is currently available from BW?

Thanks very much for any info Jason.

[Ezekiel81923]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I'm also looking @ the s200 (aka s256) compressor map and am really looking for ~400 hp. Can you quickly school me a bit on what is currently available from BW? Thanks very much for any info Jason.

+1, was looking around the interwebs but didn't find much.