Race Roots Vendorship

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, Randy is about profit and we can leave it at that.

i realize youre trying to assassinate my character here, but seriously, youre statement has me confused. its so true, but yet you make sound as if i should be condemned for it.

ifficially, im wasnt about losing money and working for free, thats why i quit. sorry i quit selling parts because there was no money in it. to assassinate me over it like im selfish is kinda funny.

theres no money in it for any of these small companys unless they cheat people really. its too hard to pay americans workers to make stuff that doesnt work half the time. its much better to pay the chinese to do it. most of what cobb,su, pg, and even cpe released to market the first time broke. its what they did AFTER that is what matters

its a humongous misconception that just because it comes from china its bad. usually the parts from china that are bad are the ones coming from getrich quick guys, who dont r/d it, and dont testfit it, and dont test the product they receive back.
legit companys, with proper financing, can do all of that. i attempted to find and work with several but in the end, i didnt retain enough control to insure a product i was comfortable with got out.

and in the end, you all can say what you want about "what im all about"..... i NEVER left a single guy hanging, or out a nickel. not one. say all you want about my character, but if that is my legacy for the cost of all this bullshit to MY CHECKBOOK, not yours. then i sleep really well at night.

sorry after 6 months you still cant find something decent to say about me kevin. seems like nothing changes once i left, so i cant take credit for all the controversy here either. so sad about that..... my troublemaking reputation is now second class

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Jujiro_Prodigy_31 haltech is the fair-minded judge, darksun is pretending to NOT be the prosecuting attorney, felt is the other prosecuting attorney, RR is self-represented, and myself and the others are playing the jury determining which one our money will and will not go once the verdict is decided... lol ; )

I'm trying so hard to be biased but I kow I am so even though I'd like the opportunity to voice my opinion I'm man enough to say don't listen to me cause MY feeling towards RR is tainted.

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark This is a company trying to cover for a downpipe similar to their design, sold by someone that clearly didn't make it claiming it as theirs. Understandable concern. I am waiting for this to happen to StreetUnit products.

Aaronc7 already tried this with his Type R race pipe. Lucky for you he pulled an RR and only had one made to date running on someone elses car.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Fobio its a humongous misconception that just because it comes from china its bad. usually the parts from china that are bad are the ones coming from getrich quick guys, who dont r/d it, and dont testfit it, and dont test the product they receive back. legit companys, with proper financing, can do all of that. i attempted to find and work with several but in the end, i didnt retain enough control to insure a product i was comfortable with got out.

I do have to agree with this...

I was the tester for the RPM lowering springs that were the first spring specifically designed for the MS6--they are RPM branded, but they were manufactured in China for him.. I received the springs for free from RPM in exchange for testing and providing feedback. Donny could have easily just sent some specs and accepted the lowest bid and slung some parts, instead we went through 4 different revisions of the front and rear springs until we got the drop and handling that we were expecting--and because of that extra effort his customers get some great springs at an exceptional price...

[JMEngineer]

I still don't see why the RR turbo kit is so impressive.

I don't know what the ecu wall is, but I have noticed that bigger turbos do make slightly higher numbers - nowhere near the numbers they should make, but still a little higher than smaller turbos.

OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, Whoosh made 367awhp with NO TUNE on a GT35R! If you assume 20% drivetrain loss thats about 460 at the crank.

Now RR made 428whp which is almost 505 at the crank with 15% drivetrain loss, so an extra ~45hp
WITH a TUNE
on a BIGGER TURBO
with AUX FUEL SYSTEM
and they had to rev it how high to do that?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer I still don't see why the RR turbo kit is so impressive. I don't know what the ecu wall is, but I have noticed that bigger turbos do make slightly higher numbers - nowhere near the numbers they should make, but still a little higher than smaller turbos. OVER A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, Whoosh made 367awhp with NO TUNE on a GT35R! If you assume 20% drivetrain loss thats about 460 at the crank. Now RR made 428whp which is almost 505 at the crank with 15% drivetrain loss, so an extra ~45hp WITH a TUNE on a BIGGER TURBO with AUX FUEL SYSTEM and they had to rev it how high to do that?

even though this is a valid argument I'm going to ask no one start this in here it has nothing to do with the issue at hand really.

[JMEngineer]

I only brought it up because Haltech asked to keep the shit out of any other threads. I won't say any more

[phailerider]

ive worked with NUMEROUS companys that were charging people, and sending people shit they had no idea if it worked, fit, etc, etc..... i was left holding the bag on alot of it as the middleman who looked like an ass when the hype fell thru.

this has happened multiple times with EVERY company i worked with since the beginning.

the difference, imo, between the decent companys and the junk ones isnt in their mistakes and bullshit hype inititally, its what they deliver once all that blows over and the bitching and complaining begins.

in the end, who the hell wants to live like that? not me, only a select few. props to the guys that make it in this business for awhile. it aint easy.

as far as using american designs on stuff being made in asia?
im all for it

as far as knockoffs that are labeled as knockoffs?
im all for it

as far as customers being happy with real cheap parts that work?
im all for it

i dont care where the hell it comes from. it just needs to fit, and work. period. anything else is just bullshit propaganda that should be discussed around election time.

[speedms6]

Originally Posted by palerider ive worked with NUMEROUS companys that were charging people, and sending people shit they had no idea if it worked, fit, etc, etc..... i was left holding the bag on alot of it as the middleman who looked like an ass when the hype fell thru. this has happened multiple times with EVERY company i worked with since the beginning. the difference, imo, between the decent companys and the junk ones isnt in their mistakes and bullshit hype inititally, its what they deliver once all that blows over and the bitching and complaining begins. in the end, who the hell wants to live like that? not me, only a select few. props to the guys that make it in this business for awhile. it aint easy. as far as using american designs on stuff being made in asia? im all for it as far as knockoffs that are labeled as knockoffs? im all for it as far as customers being happy with real cheap parts that work? im all for it i dont care where the hell it comes from. it just needs to fit, and work. period. anything else is just bullshit propaganda that should be discussed around election time.

I completely agree with all that you said, with major emphasis on "knockoffs being labelled as kknockoffs"

[Darksun280]

Going to have to say I agree with Randy. MY 240sx build is being done 80 percent with knock off equipment that gets good reviews. If I could take a shit in Greddys 650 dollar intake manifold and hurl it through their window I would but instead I'll just buy the 175 dollar knock off one and go about my business.

[Fagwagon]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Going to have to say I agree with Randy. MY 240sx build is being done 80 percent with knock off equipment that gets good reviews. If I could take a shit in Greddys 650 dollar intake manifold and hurl it through their window I would but instead I'll just buy the 175 dollar knock off one and go about my business.

LOL!! I have to agree as well but if you are selling a knock off...sell it as a knock off and sell it at knock off price. PERIOD.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider i realize youre trying to assassinate my character here, but seriously, youre statement has me confused. its so true, but yet you make sound as if i should be condemned for it. ifficially, im wasnt about losing money and working for free, thats why i quit. sorry i quit selling parts because there was no money in it. to assassinate me over it like im selfish is kinda funny. theres no money in it for any of these small companys unless they cheat people really. its too hard to pay americans workers to make stuff that doesnt work half the time. its much better to pay the chinese to do it. most of what cobb,su, pg, and even cpe released to market the first time broke. its what they did AFTER that is what matters its a humongous misconception that just because it comes from china its bad. usually the parts from china that are bad are the ones coming from getrich quick guys, who dont r/d it, and dont testfit it, and dont test the product they receive back. legit companys, with proper financing, can do all of that. i attempted to find and work with several but in the end, i didnt retain enough control to insure a product i was comfortable with got out. and in the end, you all can say what you want about "what im all about"..... i NEVER left a single guy hanging, or out a nickel. not one. say all you want about my character, but if that is my legacy for the cost of all this bullshit to MY CHECKBOOK, not yours. then i sleep really well at night. sorry after 6 months you still cant find something decent to say about me kevin. seems like nothing changes once i left, so i cant take credit for all the controversy here either. so sad about that..... my troublemaking reputation is now second class

Not when you run and hide with your head in a hole like an Ostrage, only to reappear to give your 2 cents about something and scurry off. You ARE about profit. If you cant make a buck, you dont bother. You have made that public MANY times.

[kilik2]

Well, I dont know much about this dp debacle that has occured, hell I didnt even know they were selling a dp, except with their kits. If I remember right the dp wont work on a stock setup because of how their dp is made to fit with their manifold, but I had no clue about the design of cpe's dp being copied.
Either way, in the last month I have purchased over 1500 dollars worth of parts from various companies, including both parties in this thread. Both of them have been stand up companies and I am more than pleased about the parts I recieved from them. I cant bad mouth either company because I have not been fucked in any manner, so I will leave it at that. RR get this straightened out, simple and plain, I am sure this can and will be worked out in a civil manner.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Haltech Not when you run and hide with your head in a hole like an Ostrage, only to reappear to give your 2 cents about something and scurry off. You ARE about profit. If you cant make a buck, you dont bother. You have made that public MANY times.

I like to think of Randy's appearances more like a game of Wack-a-Mole.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Haltech At least we fuckin hash shit out here, instead of covering it up and sweeping it under the carpet like the other competing sites out there. MSF is not a dictatorship, its a way of life.. a code.

I am glad you posted this thread Haltech.
I became very concerned last night at the way this was being handled, both initially with CP-e's post, and then later by MSF with the deletion of all discussion both in that post and in others that were deleted.
This shit has to be aired out and both sides veiw points posted for it to be over.
So thanks for this thread my faith in MSF is restored.

Dont get me wrong here. I think its great that someone pointed these out as shotty craftsmanship, and that they really werent made by RR, but that's where it should stop. To those people who complain about the markup on the price, you have obviously never had a business or know anything about profit.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I thanked Black speeds post cause in the end thats the way its going to play out. I don't think anything forceforlly can be done to RR to get them to stop selling a knock off but in the end some people want knock off stuff. I'm not going to hold the DP's against RR. When it comes to their turbo kits though I'll whoop wholesale ass on them. Part of me is like the Mazda guys needs all the Good vendors they can get so in that respect I don't want RR to leave but right now all I'm seeing is Drama and no parts which frustrates me Brice. If you want to drop ship parts to people thats fine but then don't market your self as a parts manufacture when your not coming off as one over the past 6 or 7 months.

Agreed

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 So, basically you are going to just strong-arm them because you know they can't afford a lawyer. lol, nice ethical approach.

That is the way I see it.
It is not right, but it happens everyday. It is called business.
It is no different than a company picking up some discount downpipes that look similar to another companies, giving them their own brand name, and selling them for profit. Business.

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark This is a company trying to cover for a downpipe similar to their design, sold by someone that clearly didn't make it claiming it as theirs. Understandable concern. I am waiting for this to happen to StreetUnit products.

Now that seriously cracks me up........
LOLOLOL

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by kilik2 RR get this straightened out, simple and plain, I am sure this can and will be worked out in a civil manner.

Then what you expect us to do with all this rope, torches, and Ky jelly?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Then what you expect us to do with all this rope, torches, and Ky jelly?

Give it back to corbs maybe?

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Then what you expect us to do with all this rope, torches, and Ky jelly?

ky? i thought we were talking about a downpipe...not a tailpipe

[-cj-]

I'm pretty sure that CP-E can't do anything to RR legally, as long as RR doesn't claim they are CP-E Downpipes. You cannot patent a downpipe, especially when there are others in the market. Any unique characteristics you have on this DP could be patented, but I doubt CP-E has done that.

If RR picks up a $130 product and sells it for double, why does that matter? Isn't that what capitalism is all about? If it costs CP-E $100 to produce the downpipe I just bought and I paid $600 for it, should I also be complaining?

The last thing this platform needs is less vendors. I know someone stated up above "I think one of them needs to go"... Why not keep the vendors in check so they don't get out of hand? I don't think anyone wins by having LESS vendors. Also, I personally think this problem is between CP-E and RR, MSF doesn't really need to take a stand one way or another... Just my two cents.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by -cj- The last thing this platform needs is less vendors. I know someone stated up above "I think one of them needs to go"... Why not keep the vendors in check so they don't get out of hand? I don't think anyone wins by having LESS vendors. Also, I personally think this problem is between CP-E and RR, MSF doesn't really need to take a stand one way or another... Just my two cents.

But what good is bad vendors either?


noticed Medevil is no longer here with us they made parts too didn't they.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Not when you run and hide with your head in a hole like an Ostrage, only to reappear to give your 2 cents about something and scurry off. You ARE about profit. If you cant make a buck, you dont bother. You have made that public MANY times.

and thats bad.....lol?
and sorry i dont post more. im not into it as much as i was. im pretty much turned off by all ive seen and went through

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider and thats bad.....lol? and sorry i dont post more. im not into it as much as i was. im pretty much turned off by all ive seen and went through

Yea i know.. i know of a great site i found on Dr. Phil. Perhaps this will help?

RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network | RAINN: The nation's largest anti-sexual assault organization.One of ?America?s 100 Best Charities" ?Worth magazine

[djuosnteisn]

Whats the point of having more than one vendor is they all sell the exact same thing?

And like i told super earlier...


RR selling knock off downpipes is like a self proclaimed chef selling McDonalds. Aren't they supposed to be a fab shop? Jeebus.

[-cj-]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 But what good is bad vendors either? noticed Medevil is no longer here with us they made parts too didn't they.

You're right about that... But I guess it's the risks in life you just can't avoid. You don't know who's going to flake out before they sign up as a vendor.

[super_pablo_]

damn... do u people have jobs?
Im checking this thread pretty often... but I just cant keep up with how fast its growing! haha

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Yea i know.. i know of a great site i found on Dr. Phil. Perhaps this will help? RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network | RAINN: The nation's largest anti-sexual assault organization.One of ?America?s 100 Best Charities" ?Worth magazine

things are just fine. just not into the car anymore, and i do better the less i think about it. even now there are "loose strings". i used to get into it with others when they left... when they troll the forum with bad attitudes. when you no longer have anything good to say... dont say anything. right?

[-cj-]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Whats the point of having more than one vendor is they all sell the exact same thing? And like i told super earlier... RR selling knock off downpipes is like a self proclaimed chef selling McDonalds. Aren't they supposed to be a fab shop? Jeebus.

Competition... Forces people's products to get better and better. Hopefully it will also cause vendors to keep their prices reasonable..... If people are selling downpipes for $130-350 and someone sells theirs for $700... I'm pretty sure most people will take the cheaper route. Maybe that's why CP-E is really complaining, who knows. Personally I like both vendors and I want them to stay...

Copying parts happens all the time with car parts, I don't think that's the reason issue here.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by -cj- Competition... Forces people's products to get better and better. Hopefully it will also cause vendors to keep their prices reasonable..... If people are selling downpipes for $130-350 and someone sells theirs for $700... I'm pretty sure most people will take the cheaper route. Maybe that's why CP-E is really complaining, who knows. Personally I like both vendors and I want them to stay... Copying parts happens all the time with car parts, I don't think that's the reason issue here.

Well CPE I'm sure wants to point out they are having alot of these cheaper knockoffs returned to them with unsatisfied customers so they are urging people not to buy them even if legal action cannot be taken on their part. This is why I think CPE should be allowed to mention that their are knock offs out their but NOT be allowed to call out certain vendors for selling them especially if there's no crime in selling knock off's.

[kilik2]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Then what you expect us to do with all this rope, torches, and Ky jelly?

Well I thought we were partying afterwards...no?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by kilik2 Well I thought we were partying afterwards...no?

Playing tummy sticks is for fun, Lynchings is straight business.

[-cj-]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Well CPE I'm sure wants to point out they are having alot of these cheaper knockoffs returned to them with unsatisfied customers so they are urging people not to buy them even if legal action cannot be taken on their part. This is why I think CPE should be allowed to mention that their are knock offs out their but NOT be allowed to call out certain vendors for selling them especially if there's no crime in selling knock off's.

Hell, if I were CPE I'd be pissed about that too... But honestly that's not RR's fault. CP-e slapped down the original eBay sellers and it sounds like RR bought up the remaining stock. RR, I'm GUESSING (HOPING) has removed any 'CP-e' branding from those pipes... If so, then it's just a shiny pipe. I'd know the difference between a generic eBay pipe and a CP-e pipe... I'd also know that I bought a 'RR Tuned' pipe and wouldn't really expect CP-e to take care of me if something happened.

As long as there are no references to CP-e, I don't think RR is doing anything wrong. I know CP-e has invested a lot of time and money making these DPs and someone copied them, but that's part of life... I'd be pissed too. But cloning the DP didn't start with RR and it certainly won't end with them.

[Fobio]

at this point, this debacle between CP-e and RR concerns me not one bit...I run quality CP-e parts that were NOT purchased off ebay...RR's offerings doesn't apply to me as well...my car runs fine on Cobb/CP-e/PTP/SU parts. And I know who to call if something comes up.

I don't even expect the parties involved to inform us of a resolution, as likely these matters are usually settled quietly and privately...

Fuck...can we just get back to talking about ECU walls, DJ and Lex's tinkering, pron and potheads?! I'd rather read about corb's bitches than this man-o-drama...haha...

[ATE BALLER]

My ebay knockoff of the atp dp fit like a glove. I paid half as much for it than atp wants. I knew when I bought it that it was not made by atp and that it likely came from china or mexico. But like I said, it fit like a glove. And it hasn't busted any welds since putting it on over 10,000 miles ago.

Who cares if it's made in china and sold as rr? Protege Garage has alot of parts made in china. They usually fit fine. Should we ban them too? CPE nor PTP manufactures their own fuel pump internals, yet they are branded as their own. So I guess they both gotta go too? There is nothing illegal about this practice. The only thing that could put rr in legal jeopardy is if they sold 'cpe' parts, labeled as 'cpe' parts, that were in fact not made by cpe. Like stated earlier, you cannot get a patent for bent pipe. You can for a casted bellmouth such as Cobb's dp, but not any old flange, especially when it's a flange that itself was imitated from the stock peice. If cpe can take legal action against rr for having a similar flange to their product, then mazda could do the same to cpe.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Fobio at this point, this debacle between CP-e and RR concerns me not one bit...I run quality CP-e parts that were NOT purchased off ebay...RR's offerings doesn't apply to me as well...my car runs fine on Cobb/CP-e/PTP/SU parts. And I know who to call if something comes up. I don't even expect the parties involved to inform us of a resolution, as likely these matters are usually settled quietly and privately... Fuck...can we just get back to talking about ECU walls, DJ and Lex's tinkering, pron and potheads?! I'd rather read about corb's bitches than this man-o-drama...haha...

Honestly I don't think any of the Pipes RR sold had the cpe stamp on it. That's a rumor that should get squashed now. The old vendors were selling the pipe as cpe though in the title but no markings on the actual DP and that's when cpe probably got merchandise returned. RR bought up the old stock relabeled them RR tuned and here we are now talking about it.

[madvillain]

Wow, this has certainly exploded

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Honestly I don't think any of the Pipes RR sold had the cpe stamp on it. That's a rumor that should get squashed now. The old vendors were selling the pipe as cpe though int he title but no marking son the actuall DP and that's when cpe probably got merchandise returned. RR bought up the old stock relabeled them RR tuned and here we are now talking about it.

That is the way I understand it.
Just made good business sense for Race Roots if you ask me.
Buy something at a discount from a distressed seller, rename it to avoid the same problem, and sell it for $$

If you compare the DP to the pic of CP-e's downpipe on their website, they are similar, but nowhere near being the same piece or a direct copy.
CP-e has cast bellmouth. RR doesnt.
Mounting hangers are a different design.

Regarding the shape........
there are only so many ways you can squeeze between the engine and firewall and join point (a) with point (b) in as smooth a flowpath as possible.

Regarding the name.......
Race Roots Tuned car
Race Roots Tuned Exhaust Manifold
Race Roots Tuned Downpipe.
Race Roots Tuned "Hard Part"

It is a brand name.

If anyone seriously thinks that every part vendor or manufacturer makes every part they sell, they are a damn fool.

Regarding profit......
It is profit, the difference between cost price and sales price.
It costs what you can buy or make it for, it sells for what the market will pay.
No such thing as too much profit.
If you can buy stock at a distressed sales price and then sell it for market value then you are a wise man...........
So long as the product is quality and does not reflect badly on your brand name.


Regarding quality....
I have yet to see a user of this downpipe complain about it, Only the competition.
If anyone has links to such info please post up.

[madvillain]

As FFF just said, this is a simple business practice.. a common one at that. However, I do feel that RR went about it in the wrong way.

Brice knows that I fully stand behind him, he has my support on here with other members as well as my financial support, it's much too soon to begin taking sides with anyone.. especially in terms of kicking people off of the forums, that is uncalled for at this point. We've now heard both sides, partially; and we shall wait until the matter is handled properly later today.

I've spoken to Brice directly since this incident over the phone, and what they did was simple and obvious. The fact of the matter is that the downpipes are NOT a direct copy, I don't care how you cut it. There are only so many ways to make a hunk of metal fit between the turbo and the catback, it's a simple matter of competition. As far as the quality of the piece, who knows. But $300 for a whole downpipe? You get what you pay for, I certainly wouldn't be purchasing it.

I feel strongly that Cp-e acted completely inappropriately in this matter in announcing it publicly the way they did last night. I understand their position in feeling obligated to take legal actions towards RR, they have every right to, but it was approached in the wrong way. Cp-e has worked to shit on RR from day one, spreading rumors and sneaking PM's around to RR's customers, it's obvious that Jake is simply trying to abolish RR from the forums by any means necessary, and unfortunately he may have been successful.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by madvillain I feel strongly that Cp-e acted completely inappropriately in this matter in announcing it publicly the way they did last night. I understand their position in feeling obligated to take legal actions towards RR, they have every right to, but it was approached in the wrong way.

I agree 100%, and at this point they have lost me as a potential customer.

The way this has been handled shows me something about the folks who run CP-e, and I would rather not do business with them at this point.

I have no opinion about Race Roots yet, I could see that panning out either way at this point.
Depending on how they handle the people who have paid for parts and are yet to receive them.

[madvillain]

I speak to Brice on a nearly daily basis, and he has not once given me reason for me to distrust him. I wanted to even be the first hybrid Cp-e and RR car too, RR's hardparts and fueling with Cp-e's tuning, but they've more than burned that bridge. They had my support in the past- just look at my sig, and for the future until Jake began stirring up the rumors, and I know that they've lost a lot of other support. It's actually kind of funny to me some times, the way adults act..

[NJSPEED3]

I have probably spent more money with RR than anyone else in this forum, and to be honest i really dont feel worried about my money. Alot of you here have yet to deal with rr directly nad still have plenty negative to say, what a waste of energy. They posted their turbo kit at the end of the 09 summer i believe and there were manny different set backs that cause the production of the hard parts to be set back. Brice has always been up front with me on the issues we have encountered. You guys should judge the dp thing and their kits separetelly.

With that been said i almost feel like i was the cause of this entire rivalry with CPE and RR. Honestly i find this entire thing to be a misunderstanding between Jake and Brice. Jake contacted me a few months ago and was telling me how it was impossible to acheave 400+whp without their new flash. He also made quite a few statements i felt were uncalled for without having the proper facts to back up his statements. I passed this on to brice because i wanted to know his thoughts on this. Well this was the match that sparked the fire. Ever since i feel like Jake has gone on a campaign to ruin RR. I cant understand why maybe we're all missing something here. I mean Jake has said it himself on this thread that they are not direct competion. If you guys remember RR was even going to tune you guys with CPE standback. But after Brice read the pms and txt messages and shouts that jake sent me changed everything.

I hope you guys do your reading before judging these 2 companies because it would be sad to lose a good vendor over bad propaganda!

Im still with RR all the way! I hope to bring you guys some good threads on my up coming turbo kit build!

[FreeFlyFreak]

I would be interested to know if everything that www,CP-e.com has posted, or said in shout, is the official approved word of CP-e management.

If it is not, then I would say that it would appear that CP-e management chose the wrong person to be their spokesperson on MSF, at least from what I have seen posted.

I will say this, I think there are times when Jake should be posting under his old username.

I used to agree with much of what he posted, but something changed when he began to work for and post as Cp-e.

Now he often just comes across as an ass.

I am not sure if this is because he has to post the views of CP-e management and therefore because of this appears to be an ass, or if these are actually his views and he has changed.....


Flame away.