400 WHP - what's missing?

[Docnox]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 The Cobb tuner says he's actually against meth. In his view, to get power from meth, you have to tune for meth. But if you tune for meth and your meth runs out, you fry your motor. You can get failsafe systems, but, he didn't think he trusted them enough to risk a motor on it.

IF your meth runs out is the key, just pay attention to it and your golden. Get a big 2.5gallon tank if you're that worried about running out. When you're that heavily modded you have to pay attention to everything anyway, it's not gonna kill you to check your meth tank and make sure it's not bone before you go out on a tear.

[phillyb]

fill up meth once a week.
carry a gallon of distilled water in the car and use it if you ever run out. should be fine.

[jack_hammer]

Originally Posted by phillyb fill up meth once a week.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck i would shoot myself having to check that once a week. lol... so not worth it.

[Speedie6]

I actually had a meth kit. I had to, at least temporarily, disconnect it. I had a TMIC and the tank was in the wheel well and the pump was near the shifter. When I got the FMIC, the pipes ran where the tank and pump were. So, I disconnected it for the moment. I may hook it back up, and put a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk.

I'm not 100% sold on Calvin (the tuner's) position. But, I understand it. He also said that the regulation of meth systems aren't as robust as the car's regular fuel system. You can have a full tank, but get some crap in it and clog the nozzle. Of course, a failsafe system is supposed to monitor flow. He just didn't feel sufficiently confident in it.

[bmylez]

Originally Posted by broncojd78 fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck i would shoot myself having to check that once a week. lol... so not worth it.

It's a little annoying, but the benefits far outweigh the downside of checking it. I am, however, considering a 2.5gal tank...

[spiker98]

Get yourself a xcel xl maf housing/ standback by cp-e and sell you ap.. no wonder you can't make 400 whp.

[jracer]

Originally Posted by spiker98 Get yourself a xcel xl maf housing/ standback by cp-e and sell you ap.. no wonder you can't make 400 whp.

How much power you making with all you CPE stuff ??

[spiker98]

Nothing yet. Stay tuned, should be done in a few more weeks...

I love a good redhead...

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by spiker98 Get yourself a xcel xl maf housing/ standback by cp-e and sell you ap.. no wonder you can't make 400 whp.

Well, I will go ahead and get the bigger MAF. I've got the CPE BT turbo inlet pipe. Which is only 3". And I already had the ATP 3" MAF, so, I figured that would be "good enough". Perhaps not. I quess I will go ahead and upgrade to a 3.25" MAF.

But, question is, is the CPE turbo inlet good enough? Its only 3"?

As far as the AP, they've also broken the "top limit", so, I don't see it being an advantage to switch to the Standback.

[BigjohnB20]

Dude do you even have your car back yet? I am sure the people over at cobb know what they are doing and are very competent tuners, but I would get your car back, drive some, take some logs, etc before you go start buying new parts based on random recommendations from the forum.

Just my 0.02

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 Dude do you even have your car back yet? I am sure the people over at cobb know what they are doing and are very competent tuners, but I would get your car back, drive some, take some logs, etc before you go start buying new parts based on random recommendations from the forum. Just my 0.02

Well, that's a fair enough recomendation. A bigger MAF sounds like it might be in the cards, but, I'm not going to buy anything at the moment.

I'm going to pick up my car probably Saturday. Gotta fly to Dallas.

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 Well, I will go ahead and get the bigger MAF. I've got the CPE BT turbo inlet pipe. Which is only 3". And I already had the ATP 3" MAF, so, I figured that would be "good enough". Perhaps not. I quess I will go ahead and upgrade to a 3.25" MAF. But, question is, is the CPE turbo inlet good enough? Its only 3"? As far as the AP, they've also broken the "top limit", so, I don't see it being an advantage to switch to the Standback.

I'm not sure I follow why you think you need a larger MAF? If it's not pegging the voltage then why do you feel that it needs to be replaced?

And as far as the 3" inlet goes...that should be fine. There's no reason to run anything larger at your power level IMO.

And to echo what BigjohnB20 said, your tuner is going to give you the best advice in how to proceed. I see many of the suggestions here as blind guesses at best. Review the logs, talk to the tuner, and decide where the next restriction is.

Good luck!

[spiker98]

Here's what was said to me from Jake at Cp-e. And this was a LONG time ago but I believe its still relevant. The way the 3in ATP MAF scales to the ECU does not work correctly. You can do the math and make it work but it just takes a lot more time in tuning. Cause you have to adjust for the difference. But he told me the Cp-e 3.25 scales correctly... I ran the ATP 3in MAF on my car for a little over a year untuned....before I blew..(not saying that's the reason)

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by spiker98 Here's what was said to me from Jake at Cp-e. And this was a LONG time ago but I believe its still relevant. The way the 3in ATP MAF scales to the ECU does not work correctly. You can do the math and make it work but it just takes a lot more time in tuning. Cause you have to adjust for the difference. But he told me the Cp-e 3.25 scales correctly...

Well, I'm not a tuner, but, this doesn't make sense to me. I would figure that the 3" would require 'x' amount of scaling from stock and the 3.25" would require 'y' scaling from stock. But neither is stock and so both would need compensation. At least that is what I would think.

Originally Posted by Click Here I'm not sure I follow why you think you need a larger MAF? If it's not pegging the voltage then why do you feel that it needs to be replaced?

Well, I hear that Cagey is pegging his 3.25" and he's supposedly at around 550 WHP. So, I was guestimating that maybe 3" would be getting closed to pegged at 400 WHP. I don't know the exact numbers, I was just guestimating.

But, bottom line is, I'll see what Calvin recommends to go forward.

[rigor]

i definitely think it is a must to hit 400, cause you will max it out right @ or just beyond 400hp, bad hp to have your maf freak out imo

but if you get the cpe 3.5 maf take the alan screws out, and smear some ultragray silicone on the piece, and reassemble it.

is ruff cut, metal on metal! and it leaks

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by rigor i definitely think it is a must to hit 400, cause you will max it out right @ or just beyond 400hp, bad hp to have your maf freak out imo

Well, I suspect you are right, but, I will wait until I see what my tuner recommends.

Originally Posted by rigor but if you get the cpe 3.5 maf take the alan screws out, and smear some ultragray silicone on the piece, and reassemble it. is ruff cut, metal on metal! and it leaks

Well that sucks, considering how expensive it is! I was thinking that if/when I get one, to look at the Treadstone because 1. its cheaper and 2. it has an air straightener. Though I'm not certain of the ID. I heard someone say it is also 3.25", but, I'm not sure of that. It looks from the pic to just be a hunk of 3.5" tube, which would put the ID at (I think) 3.37". Not certain.

[rigor]

ya i know i thought their was an o-ring or something, but nagatory gost rider! i ended up welding mine, i found the leak during a boost leak test!

and it leaked bad!

may not matter that close to were your drawing in air, but i don't want to find out either....

[dooderek]

djuosnteisn

[rodrigo]

kingpin

[rigor]

?

[bcmurphy87]

So whats happening, we think the only hold back is the 3 maf housing?

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 So whats happening, we think the only hold back is the 3 maf housing?

Well, I STILL haven't got my car back from Cobb. They recommended I get an air/oil separator:

Crawford Performance

And its taking them TWO WEEKS to install the damn thing. My car has been there about 6 weeks! Some of the issues haven't been their fault, and there was also Christmas/New Years. But, it still seems absurd.

I hope (I better!) get my car back Saturday. At that point, I'll talk with their tuner as to what recommendations are going forward.

[X-Man]

Originally Posted by Speedie6 The Cobb tuner says he's actually against meth. In his view, to get power from meth, you have to tune for meth. But if you tune for meth and your meth runs out, you fry your motor. You can get failsafe systems, but, he didn't think he trusted them enough to risk a motor on it.

Get an aquamist system (i have one) If you run out of fluid it changes maps. If a nozzle is clogged, it changes maps... If you want to switch the wi of, it changes maps...

And dont run it on meth, water... Meth is more of an octane booster, and you dont need that. Run it on water to avoid knock. And a cpe fuel pump.

But thats just me...

[turd burglar]

cobb takes forever with alot of stuff, its ridiculous

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by turd burglar cobb takes forever with alot of stuff, its ridiculous

God dammit. I just talked to Cobb. And, they said they didn't have enough hose to install that can, so they had to order it so it won't be done until like Tuesday.

This week, I wasn't too busy at work and could have flown any day to pick it up. Next week I have a customer acceptance testing so I won't be free. So, probably won't be able to get it for yet another week. Dammit. They've been working on the can for 2 weeks and just now deciding they need more hose?

[turd burglar]

they had mine for 6 months maing...

[rigor]

took me an hr to put in my cc????????

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by rigor took me an hr to put in my cc????????

Well, there is a bit of complication that could add a day or two to the equation...

The full story is, based on bad recommendation from PTP, and what I thought I understood that a couple of people have done (though I may have misunderstood what they were doing) was to remove the stock PCV assembly and replace it with a blocking plate, and add a second tap to the valve cover on the passenger side. Cobb indicated that wasn't cutting it, they were seeing elevated pressure in the crankcase.

So, Cobb's recommendation was to utilize the PTP aluminum blocking plate I had to have two fittings, one out, one back in from the AOS. And, while they were at it, weld off the EGR and PCV connections on the intake manifold. So, no possible way for oil to get into the IM anymore.

But, they said that modifying the PTP plate was more involved than they anticipated in order to make sure the out was out and the in would drain back to the pan. They said they built a little box and welded it onto the blocking plate.

So, the project was more involved than a simple catch can install. But, still, two weeks to do that seems on the long side to me. And it was annoying that they had it all done and then said, oh, shit, we need more hose.

[rigor]

huh i think their is no better place to draw the pvc from then the stock location, this way you get the gas vapor before it settles in the oil
i hope their not charging you for all that time

hopefully soon you will have your car!

i get about a 12 oz of str8 gas out of my cc every oil change

it was half that on stock turbo,, but my tune was real fat, so maybe now that it is leaned out more, it will go back to 6 oz

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by rigor huh i think their is no better place to draw the pvc from then the stock location, this way you get the gas vapor before it settles in the oil

Well, basically, Cobb is agreeing with you. The tap into the PTP plate is basically using the stock location. The reasoning (apparently faulty) by PTP was that there (supposedly) is a lot of oil slosh in the stock location, causing the stock PCV to get oil fouled and putting more oil into the intake manifold. So, the theory was, that by tapping just off the valve cover, most heavier-than-air fluid would fall downward before going through the taps. Not all of course, just, in theory, better than the stock location.

But, the taps off the valve cover just don't keep pressure from building in the crankcase. So, turned out to be a bad plan. They gave me a quote for how much to isntall the can. Kinda pricey, but, fixed cost, so, its not costing me extra for them taking 2 weeks to do it.

[06Speed6]

+1 on the 3.25" cpe maf - I dont generally rep cpe stuff either, but it is the only one ide use.
-1 on the meth - port injection bandaids arent needed for di.
+1 on the Cobb pcv fix - it sounds good to me.
+1 on the Bosch 3.0 bar map idea... oh wait no one mentioned that one.
+1 on ARP main and head studs...

[Speedie6]

Still no car yet. They should be done any day, but, travel to Dallas is kinda bad this week with the Superbowl. And, I'm busy at work. So, I don't know when I'll get the damn thing.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 +1 on ARP main and head studs...

Well, I got the head studs, I forgot to put it on the list. I'll add it. But, I didn't even know that ARP made main studs, so, I don't think I have them. Unless Cobb used them and I don't remember.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 +1 on the 3.25" cpe maf - I dont generally rep cpe stuff either, but it is the only one ide use.

Why the CPE one over Treadstone? The Treadstone one does look more basic, just a hunk of 3.5" pipe and a MAF mount. But, it does have an air straightener.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 +1 on the Bosch 3.0 bar map idea... oh wait no one mentioned that one.

Never heard of this. I googled it and found JumpingJackson's thread. I'll ask Cobb what they have to say.

[06Speed6]

ARP makes both head and main studs, you can look at them side by side and there is almost no difference between them.

The CPE maf because it measures the incoming air more accurately than anything else I have seen. I saw someone mention something about the multiplier in the ECU, but thats a pile. Its about accurate measurements, that is all.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 ARP makes both head and main studs, you can look at them side by side and there is almost no difference between them. The CPE maf because it measures the incoming air more accurately than anything else I have seen. I saw someone mention something about the multiplier in the ECU, but thats a pile. Its about accurate measurements, that is all.

Yeah, after your post, I googled the main studs and found it. But, I don't think I got those. Cobb didn't suggest them, to my recollection anyway. Would've been good I'm sure, but I didn't know it.

I figured the multiplier info was bogus. I'll see what Cobb recommends for MAF.

Thanks for responding.

[senor blanco ms3]

This is a perfect example of jumping before looking.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by senor blanco ms3 This is a perfect example of jumping before looking.

There was a very extensive thread that was lost in the MSF crash, where I asked for parts recommendations. Jake of CPE, SSinstaller and others gave lots of good advice in that thread. Quite a lot of thought and time went into this project that you are not seeing in this thread.

[06Speed6]

+1 I remember that thread.

[Speedie6]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 +1 I remember that thread.

Thanks, and I think you also participated. Too bad that went goodbye.

[Speedie6]

Well, I *FINALLY* got my car back today. I flew to Dallas this afternoon and drove home this evening. Just got in about an hour ago.

First thing, I *definitely* notice the increased lag over the stock turbo. Boost doesn't really kick in until 3k RPM or so. I'm glad I didn't get anything more laggy.

So, here is what Calvin, my tuner had to say:

* In short, he thinks the turbo is giving pretty much all its got. He doesn't think there is a lot of room for improvement with my current 3071.

* I'm at 360 HP/380 TQ. The manager said that was basically 400 on a dynajet, they have a Mustang.

* There are at least some possible options, like meth, which as I said, he's not a fan of. And he could make a tune for 100 octane race fuel. But, I'm not going to run that so, no bother. He didn't mention NOS, but, I'm not going to do that either.

* He likes Forced Performance turbos. I had never heard of them until after I bought my turbo. In my earlier thread that is now gone where I was asking for recommendations, nobody mentioned them. The theory with Forced Performance is that they have a proprietary wheel that is supposed to spool as well as a 3071 but have more like 3076 topend. Or thereabouts, in theory. I probably should have got that but I didn't know.

* He also likes twin-scroll, which is also something I never heard of until after I bought my turbo.

* He contradicted what the shop manager told me. The shop manager told me that it was running out of gas at the top end. Calvin said, no, fuel is fine. I probably *would* start to run out of gas and need a bigger fuel pump in the tank if I went to higher power levels. But, at the current level, I have enough fuel. I don't know why the manager told me otherwise.

* They did go with the Bosch 3-bar like 06speed6 mentioned. I had never heard of it, but they did it.

* He said my MAF still has some headroom so, no immediate need for anything else other than the ATP MAF I have.

So, maybe someday I'll upgrade to a Forced Performance turbo and twin-scroll. But, I've sent enough on this car, so, probably, I'll call it pretty much done for the foreseeable future.

I'll post some pics this weekend. Too tired now.

[BrianB6]

360HP and 380TQ is strong for a MS6 on that dyno.
I think you are the highest MS6 on that dyno ever.
Be happy and enjoy the car for a bit.

Forced Performance is the shit. They are local to the DFW area and big in the Mitsu and Subie world. Just say "FP red" or "FP green" and they will know what you are talking about.

BTW as a reference check out Cobb foums>Plano and check the dyno vids to compare your car.