should i run a new turbo on a fresly rebuilt engine ?

[Jeff23spl]

I will be installing a rebuilt engine soon (I hope) and i was wondering if i should wait until few oil changes to install a brand new turbo?

Could any metal particules from the engine break-in could go into the turbo new bearing at that time ?

If so i could delay the turbo install but it would be easier to put it on at the same time....

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl I will be installing a rebuilt engine soon (I hope) and i was wondering if i should wait until few oil changes to install a brand new turbo? Could any metal particules from the engine break-in could go into the turbo new bearing at that time ? If so i could delay the turbo install but it would be easier to put it on at the same time....

I see your concern and it is certainly a possibility. But, wouldn't that be true for a new turbocharged car you drive off the showroom floor that has an engine that has not been broken in? What am I missing?

I would do it at the same time and make sure that I had the turbo oil lines and center shaft journals already filled with oil before starting the engine and also have the oil pump primed. Hopefully, your rebuilder has used some type of assembly lube designed to protect the crank and cam bearings until oil can get to them.

I think you already know those things, so forgive me if I am stating what may seem like the obvious. I've replaced turbos quite a few times on different platforms, and have installed new or remanufactured engines quite a few times, but have never done both at the same time. I've never installed a new turbo on a fresh engine.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 I see your concern and it is certainly a possibility. But, wouldn't that be true for a new turbocharged car you drive off the showroom floor that has an engine that has not been broken in? What am I missing?.... .

I'm wouldn't be worried if it would be a bushing k04, new kit is below 100$....
And this is not about the pre-lube, because yes we used it and i primed the pump already but about the metal parts coming out the honing in the cylinder wall when the new rings break in the cylinders....

I will check again the oil path vS filter but would an ordinary oil filter is enough to catch all of them to not reach the turbo BB ?


For new cars, I think the machining process at Mazda or others brands would be a lot more sophisticated and precise with more honing steps than the usual machine shop you could find. So i expect the break in doesn't remove that much metal mesh....

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl I'm wouldn't be worried if it would be a bushing k04, new kit is below 100$.... And this is not about the pre-lube, because yes we used it and i primed the pump already but about the metal parts coming out the honing in the cylinder wall when the new rings break in the cylinders.... I will check again the oil path vS filter but would an ordinary oil filter is enough to catch all of them to not reach the turbo BB ? For new cars, I think the machining process at Mazda or others brands would be a lot more sophisticated and precise with more honing steps than the usual machine shop you could find. So i expect the break in doesn't remove that much metal mesh....

Do you know what equipment your machine shop used for boring and honing the cylinders? If they were bored with a typical Rottler boring bar at the correct travel speed and honed with a Sunnen hone with a deck plate in place, the proper grit and cross-hatch pattern, then cleaned properly according to remanufacturing industry standards, the finish is likely to better than Mazda OEM. The work I'm familiar with would be.

But if this is just a "ring job" type rebuild that's a different story. I was assuming this would be the work of a recognized engine remanufacturing shop. Might want to ask if the shop is a member of AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association) and if the machinist is ASE certified.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Do you know what equipment your machine shop used for boring and honing the cylinders? If they were bored with a typical Rottler boring bar at the correct travel speed and honed with a Sunnen hone with a deck plate in place, the proper grit and cross-hatch pattern, then cleaned properly according to remanufacturing industry standards, the finish is likely to better than Mazda OEM. The work I'm familiar with would be. But if this is just a "ring job" type rebuild that's a different story. I was assuming this would be the work of a recognized engine remanufacturing shop. Might want to ask if the shop is a member of AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association) and if the machinist is ASE certified.

For sure, it wasn't me with a drill and a 3-pod stones but a machine shop

He cleaned any oil/dirt from the bloc first and he took a lot of measures before installing the drilling machine on the top of the bloc. (Since it isn't an open deck block i'm less worried about not using a torque plate.....)

It wasn't a big shop with certificates or any ISO compliance etc...Just a good guy in a foreign region that do this for decades. He know his shit about measuring despite he may not have all the latest tools. I prefer this, versus shipping an heavy bloc out of the country to be bored by the best tool at risks of being done by a bad machinist...

After he drilled the first portion to recover from any oval shape,(The donor bloc was out of shape)
He put the bloc in another machine for honing. It was done in 3 steps of stone grit at fixed speed. I don't know the brand but the rotating speed was kind of geared to the up and down motion to keep both speed timed together..... The guy was measuring the bore often to know when to change the grit and to finish as per Manley clearance...I asked if he was using stone or diamond and he told me it was stones...(I have read diamond would have made a better finish but....)

I think he did something to remove the final harsh before finishing with a towel but i didn't saw that part and then he washed down the bloc for a very long time.

He told me that the honing process make it almost ready to run and some of his customer cannot really break-in the bloc much before racing it, and there is no issue.....

At the end of the day, i'm not sure about the cylinder finish but since i used a piston with more thermal expansion needing more clearance than factory, and a larger ring gaps to be safely abused, i don't expect it would be as good, or as efficient, than a genuine Mazdaspeed engine.
Peoples often says that they got a brand new engine because they replaced pistons and rings but everything else still have 100+ k miles...
Imo: it is a ''repaired'' engine with forged internals....

[HaXiR]

There will be a LOT of metal flakes from the break in that WILL get into the turbo. If you open up your oil filter after the first 2-3 oil changes, you will see them quite visibly. If you care about your turbo, you have two options.

1). Don't install the turbo for 1,000 miles or so. Installing a turbo isn't that hard with the motor in. This is my suggestion.

2). Install new turbo on new block WITH an inline oil filter to the turbo (which will run you ~200 bucks). Not a bad idea to have one for ever, but this will filter out most of the metal to the turbo that could destroy it. But you will be cleaning it often. So I still suggest option one, and perhaps still running an inline once you swap to new turbo.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by HaXiR There will be a LOT of metal flakes from the break in that WILL get into the turbo. If you open up your oil filter after the first 2-3 oil changes, you will see them quite visibly. If you care about your turbo, you have two options. 1). Don't install the turbo for 1,000 miles or so. Installing a turbo isn't that hard with the motor in. This is my suggestion. 2). Install new turbo on new block WITH an inline oil filter to the turbo (which will run you ~200 bucks). Not a bad idea to have one for ever, but this will filter out most of the metal to the turbo that could destroy it. But you will be cleaning it often. So I still suggest option one, and perhaps still running an inline once you swap to new turbo.

I already installed a turbo into a 3 with the engine in, it wasn't that bad but on a 6, the t-case and return pipe may extend the efforts...???

Adding an oil filter just for the turbo is a good idea. But it is 1 or 2 more places that can leak at some point....I have few solid oil pipe, i could replace it if i don't like it further....

I will think about it...

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl I already installed a turbo into a 3 with the engine in, it wasn't that bad but on a 6, the t-case and return pipe may extend the efforts...??? Adding an oil filter just for the turbo is a good idea. But it is 1 or 2 more places that can leak at some point....I have few solid oil pipe, i could replace it if i don't like it further.... I will think about it...

It's just as easy on a 6, pull the turbo from the top. Leave the manifold in. It twists and comes out, and I fit a bnr s3 right back in no problem under the manifold toward the batter (which should be removed). Not difficult.

A proper inline oil filter of quality wont leak.

[Fstrnyou]

The oil goes straight to the filter after the pump. There is no "dirty" oil circulated to any engine or accessory components.

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou The oil goes straight to the filter after the pump. There is no "dirty" oil circulated to any engine or accessory components.

Then why do all big/known motor builders advise against it? Why do people that do run an inline filter have to clean out their filters when they oil change because it has crap in it? Fresh motors can and do kill turbos with their metal shards from the break-in. It's not uncommon or an anomaly. Google it, read, talk to people who know what they're talking about.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by HaXiR Then why do all big/known motor builders advise against it? Why do people that do run an inline filter have to clean out their filters when they oil change because it has crap in it? Fresh motors can and do kill turbos with their metal shards from the break-in. It's not uncommon or an anomaly. Google it, read, talk to people who know what they're talking about.

I heard it too and i was asking if this is a myth or not....

Can it be related to some filters with bad filtering media ?
A filters getting full of shit and let the by-pass valve to open allowing all the crap to go thru the engine ?
Can it be just metal trapped inside the bloc that didn't get cleaned and get pushed out by the new oil and reach turbo before it get filtered ?

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl I heard it too and i was asking if this is a myth or not.... Can it be related to some filters with bad filtering media ? A filters getting full of shit and let the by-pass valve to open allowing all the crap to go thru the engine ? Can it be just metal trapped inside the bloc that didn't get cleaned and get pushed out by the new oil and reach turbo before it get filtered ?

filters aren't 100% perfect. Stuff gets by. And not all filters are created equal. Plus not 100% of the oil is filtered.

[LenSpeed6]

mine didnt blow up...

[Fstrnyou]

If trash gets through, then all your crank bearings will get trash run through them too. I guess we need to install an inline filter in the main oil galley too.

[Db09ms3]

I ran into this article from BNR regarding this issue.

https://bnrsupercars.wordpress.com/m...-engines-only/

[Fstrnyou]

Maybe I'm the lucky one. I have 10k miles on my built motor with no turbo oil pre-filter. Turbo spools like new with no smoke.

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Maybe I'm the lucky one. I have 10k miles on my built motor with no turbo oil pre-filter. Turbo spools like new with no smoke.

No one ever said it was 100% you will fry your turbo if you run it with a fresh motor. Don't change the fact that you did get metal flakes through the turbo bearings. As for your crank/rod bearings, they aren't made of the same material as the turbo bearings usually. Still is bad to get contaminants through them, that's why you change the oil so soon and many times on a fresh motor.

Point is, I suggest running either a POS k04 or run an inline filter for a BT on a fresh motor, peace of mind. Why roll the dice. I myself ran my K04 on my forged motor when it was new. If I damage the K04, I couldn't care less.

[Db09ms3]

Run a pre-filter and a restrictor banjo bolt thingy ma-jig plus a used k04.

[MSMS3]

BNR is correct that turbos can be damaged when installed on rebuilt or "built" engines. But, that is because whoever did the boring and honing work did not properly clean the block afterward. That is critically important.

Honing cylinders leaves two types of "dirt" on the cylinder wall; honing stone residue and cast iron dust. If not removed before the engine is reassembled, the world’s finest lapping compound is waiting to destroy all the hard work of assembly the instant the engine is started, and that extends to the bearings in the turbo.

Proper cylinder cleaning consists of a thorough scrubbing of the block with hot, soapy water taking care to clean the surface under the cylinder facing the crankcase, and flushing out all water and oil passageways. Then rinse with hot water, dry, and lightly oil to prevent rust. Good shops know to do this. It is SOP.

If this is done the risk to bearings, including the turbo is virtually non-existent. If OP's shop did not do this properly, then, yes, wait and install the turbo after break-in.

BTW: The bore should have a micro-finish cross-hatch pattern at 45 degrees after final honing. That is what holds the oil to the cylinder wall for both lubrication and piston ring sealing.

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 BNR is correct that turbos can be damaged when installed on rebuilt or "built" engines. But, that is because whoever did the boring and honing work did not properly clean the block afterward. That is critically important. Honing cylinders leaves two types of "dirt" on the cylinder wall; honing stone residue and cast iron dust. If not removed before the engine is reassembled, the world’s finest lapping compound is waiting to destroy all the hard work of assembly the instant the engine is started, and that extends to the bearings in the turbo. Proper cylinder cleaning consists of a thorough scrubbing of the block with hot, soapy water taking care to clean the surface under the cylinder facing the crankcase, and flushing out all water and oil passageways. Then rinse with hot water, dry, and lightly oil to prevent rust. Good shops know to do this. It is SOP. If this is done the risk to bearings, including the turbo is virtually non-existent. If OP's shop did not do this properly, then, yes, wait and install the turbo after break-in. BTW: The bore should have a micro-finish cross-hatch pattern at 45 degrees after final honing. That is what holds the oil to the cylinder wall for both lubrication and piston ring sealing.

It appears you've never built engines before. Every knowledgeable builder will tell you there will always be small metal flakes in the oil/filter as the rings set and make their grooves to seat and make the seal. Those are the metal flakes in question and the whole point of this discussion. I've seen them first hand on my engines. Cut open the filter and look in the filter grooves, you will see them. Small metal glitter sparkles here and there.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by HaXiR It appears you've never built engines before. Every knowledgeable builder will tell you there will always be small metal flakes in the oil/filter as the rings set and make their grooves to seat and make the seal. Those are the metal flakes in question and the whole point of this discussion. I've seen them first hand on my engines. Cut open the filter and look in the filter grooves, you will see them. Small metal glitter sparkles here and there.

Appearances can be deceptive. Our family owns and operates an automotive/diesel machine shop and engine rebuilding plant. My dad started the business over 50 years ago. We have been in the same location since the mid ‘60s. I am 69 years old now. I started grinding cranks, boring and surfacing blocks, grinding valves and surfacing cylinder heads when I was in high school. Do the math. We sponsored and campaigned drag and circle track cars and built race engines to customer specs. We still build race engines along with the regular line of business, now more oriented to big industrial and over the road diesel turbo engines and only about 50% cars and light trucks.

As time and technology changed, we upgraded equipment and refined techniques. Our company is a member of AERA, my dad has held leadership positions. Our ASE Master Machinist is our shop foreman. He has been with the company thirty years. I’m on the business/management side now.

To the point. You are right, but you miss the point. Yes, any engine during the break in period will shed some metal in the oil filter. That is why there is a break in procedure and why you change oil and filter at its completion.

That does not mean that a properly remanufactured engine which will be thoroughly cleaned before getting to the customer will destroy a turbo during break in. We do not see that. Many passenger car engines we rebuild go into turbocharged cars. Our warranty claim experience for metal particle damage has been . . . zero. Do our machinists and assemblers make the occasional, rare mistake, sure. They are human. We make it right. Extremely rare, but metal particle bearing damage, internally or in the turbo, we just don’t see that.

Shops with less diligence may have different outcomes. BNR’s experience speaks to those type “builds”.

BTW: If the piston rings are making grooves in the cylinder walls during break in, you’ve got serious problems. That’s not how the rings get “seated”.

[HaXiR]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Appearances can be deceptive. Our family owns and operates an automotive/diesel machine shop and engine rebuilding plant. My dad started the business over 50 years ago. We have been in the same location since the mid ‘60s. I am 69 years old now. I started grinding cranks, boring and surfacing blocks, grinding valves and surfacing cylinder heads when I was in high school. Do the math. We sponsored and campaigned drag and circle track cars and built race engines to customer specs. We still build race engines along with the regular line of business, now more oriented to big industrial and over the road diesel turbo engines and only about 50% cars and light trucks. As time and technology changed, we upgraded equipment and refined techniques. Our company is a member of AERA, my dad has held leadership positions. Our ASE Master Machinist is our shop foreman. He has been with the company thirty years. I’m on the business/management side now. To the point. You are right, but you miss the point. Yes, any engine during the break in period will shed some metal in the oil filter. That is why there is a break in procedure and why you change oil and filter at its completion. That does not mean that a properly remanufactured engine which will be thoroughly cleaned before getting to the customer will destroy a turbo during break in. We do not see that. Many passenger car engines we rebuild go into turbocharged cars. Our warranty claim experience for metal particle damage has been . . . zero. Do our machinists and assemblers make the occasional, rare mistake, sure. They are human. We make it right. Extremely rare, but metal particle bearing damage, internally or in the turbo, we just don’t see that. Shops with less diligence may have different outcomes. BNR’s experience speaks to those type “builds”. BTW: If the piston rings are making grooves in the cylinder walls during break in, you’ve got serious problems. That’s not how the rings get “seated”.

I'm merely speaking from experience first hand and speaking with other MZR builders. They, like myself, saw (which is normal) the metal flakes in the oil/oil filter for the early break in miles. Those are the miles I started from the jump, that I suggested use a crap turbo as to avoid any possible damage to a new/expensive turbo. That's why this platform has many people either doing that, and/or running inline oil filters to the turbo oil feed to prevent any metal contamination to prevent any damage to said turbo. Also why BNR suggests that very thing, either a filter or dont install the turbo on a fresh motor. Will it 100% break the turbo? No. But why roll the dice If theres a chance? I gave my input/suggestion and provided the facts. I simply countered your point that if there's any contaminates, it's because the block wasn't cleared properly. And that's just simply not 100% true. See above.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by HaXiR I'm merely speaking from experience first hand and speaking with other MZR builders. They, like myself, saw (which is normal) the metal flakes in the oil/oil filter for the early break in miles. Those are the miles I started from the jump, that I suggested use a crap turbo as to avoid any possible damage to a new/expensive turbo. That's why this platform has many people either doing that, and/or running inline oil filters to the turbo oil feed to prevent any metal contamination to prevent any damage to said turbo. Also why BNR suggests that very thing, either a filter or dont install the turbo on a fresh motor. Will it 100% break the turbo? No. But why roll the dice If theres a chance? I gave my input/suggestion and provided the facts. I simply countered your point that if there's any contaminates, it's because the block wasn't cleared properly. And that's just simply not 100% true. See above.

Ok . . . .

Or use a shop that does it right, including proper cleaning,, and does not get “grooves” in the cylinder walls during break in, whatever that is (hint: impossible).

[Fstrnyou]

I thoroughly washed my block before assembling.

[SSinstaller]

I have never seen a properly rebuilt engine kill itself or a turbo with casting flash or machining debris. If you're overly worried about it you should have found a machinist you trusted to do the work properly.

My gt35 was installed at the same time as my built motor with no issues.

[LenSpeed6]

As stated above, clean the hell out of the block and bores any youll be fine, the ideal situation is to have zero trash in the engine while assembling but good luck with that without a class 10,000 clean room.

I assembled my engine in my friggin dining room and my engine is fine.

My personal theory is that anything with a turbo especially if your hammering on it is going to use some oil no matter what.

[LenSpeed6]

Not to be a dick but it sounds like you need a different car thats preferably brand new, that will fix this problem.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by LenSpeed6 Not to be a dick but it sounds like you need a different car thats preferably brand new, that will fix this problem.

Are you addressing that sentence to me ?

[Jeff23spl]

ok that thread drifted from my initial question and each of you gave good points to let me figure out my own answer. Thank you.

Anyway i will delay the new turbo because i had to spend money elsewhere to buy other stuff so i will re-use my old gt28 for a while on my new build...(That one survived to my previous rebuild in my ms3 frame, so it won't get worse this time.)

And after reading about the needs to choose the right oil filter for proper flow, i will keep the factory system without filter that worked good for me for more than 10 years...