How about those lug nuts?

[Monotonous ONE]

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport No bandwagon, more like witch hunt now. To give you a bit from my perspective and a little a bit about myself.... I started with Mercedes when I was 16. I left Merc 4 yrs later and went to work on Ferraris in So Cal. After that I joined a Subaru group and we went racing on dirt roads. Then I found myself out in the country and worked for a Porsche engine builder and Cart builder. I had almost 20 years of experience wrenching on things that went fast BEFORE I went to engineering school. During school I worked with BMW, VAG, and Merc again. Porsche put Alu lugnuts on cars as an option for a long time. They also put little "hold up tabs" on their valve stems on wheels because the centrifugal force of 150+mph would throw the valve stems out. High performance = high liability. Racing and going fast is an inherently dangerous proposition, and if your not prepared to accept the risk then you have left yourself open to liabilities that you are not prepared for. Personally, I have always tried to stick with the "7 turns" rule. It doesn't always happen that way, but when it doesn't I know and am aware of the possible failure. There is no way for me to measure every wheel available along with spacers from different manufactures to post a definitive chart of what works and what doesn't. In the end it is up to you to decide what is safe ultimately.

As a car enthusiast, and a person who has built, and drag and street raced since 1991, I understand there are risks when it comes to modifying a car. This is a pay to play hobby.

What I can't accept is that it's lugnuts that break. If that is the attitude that Corksport is going to have in the aftermarket world, then I suggest that on your website, as soon as your home page loads up, you have a huge flashing banner that says, buy our products at your own risk.

[rfinkle2]

If I'm going to troll, I guess I should do it right. Corksport has long enjoyed the benefits of the group mentality of msf which, no doubt has boosted their sales over the years, but when positive opinion turns somewhat negative because of a few sub par parts, they call it a witch hunt.

As someone who has been on both sides of msf opinion, it is a weak argument and unrelated to the topic.

This is a forum. Everyone in these threads is active both positive and negative...

As said in some earlier posts, running the 2 around the track is not an accurate comparison of the stress these lugs will see on the ms3.

[MazdaBoy2.3]

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos There's not a sponsored car by this company or any other company that makes the power that some of us make. What fast car uses their parts? Zero. That being said, let me get back to my original point. In the other thread, they clearly stated to the OP that the lugs are not designed to work with spacers, be torqued past 85 and then now 65. You can't use a impact gun. And it obviously won't work with any silver Pus either. So again I will ask. My spacers used independent studs, the rears had no spacers, there was no impact gun used. So how do 10 out of 20 lugs break coming off, after 9 runs, spread out in 2 weeks?

@kritz; is pretty quick.

[Voltron]

I know he is, but his power level and mine are about 120 apart if not more.

[JTMS3]

I

Originally Posted by K2@corksport No bandwagon, more like witch hunt now. To give you a bit from my perspective and a little a bit about myself.... I started with Mercedes when I was 16. I left Merc 4 yrs later and went to work on Ferraris in So Cal. After that I joined a Subaru group and we went racing on dirt roads. Then I found myself out in the country and worked for a Porsche engine builder and Cart builder. I had almost 20 years of experience wrenching on things that went fast BEFORE I went to engineering school. During school I worked with BMW, VAG, and Merc again. Porsche put Alu lugnuts on cars as an option for a long time. They also put little "hold up tabs" on their valve stems on wheels because the centrifugal force of 150+mph would throw the valve stems out. High performance = high liability. Racing and going fast is an inherently dangerous proposition, and if your not prepared to accept the risk then you have left yourself open to liabilities that you are not prepared for. Personally, I have always tried to stick with the "7 turns" rule. It doesn't always happen that way, but when it doesn't I know and am aware of the possible failure.

Sounds to me like someone took a pay cut to engineer parts for a niche community like Mazdas.

Originally Posted by K2@corksport In the end it is up to you to decide what is safe ultimately.

I can appreciate your honesty but at the same time this was not the best way to end your reply. If you engineer parts that ultimately bring up safety concerns whether you feel it user(s) error or not, you warn/recall, stop selling and advertising until a definitive answer can be reached.

Can spacers be the problem? Sure but then you should of had a disclaimer then the steps above... Not after defending the product until they potentially separate in a test on a different model car all together without similar stock parts as most of us have when it comes to wheel studs.

In the end you can't rely on your customers to decide what is safe and what isn't if you decide to engineer a potential safety concern part. It is your responsibly as the manufacturer, just as it is a car manufacturer's obligation for "safety recalls". Do those recalls happen to every vehicle sold? No, but they still have to issue a warning to past buyers and make them "aware" and obviously recall to replace. Then it's the responsibility of the customer to replace the potential issue taking the liability out of the manufacturer's hands as they did their due diligence to inform the customer.

I have some CS parts on my car so I'm not looking to jump on the "bandwagon/witch hunt" as I have faith this issue will be resolved by your company. I just think some engineers are best to say nothing with personal responses such as yours. You are fighting an uphill battle with a response such as this.

[Easter Bunny]

Guys lets look at the fact that regardless of the individual circumstances of each failure ie. spacers over torqued etc. they have all failed in the same exact spot. This isn't a material or installation issue it's a design issue.

IMHO lugnuts are something simple enough that they should never fail. If they do a corner was cut somewhere.

[someguy]

So the question to all those upset, what would set this right?

Should corksport offer to buy back the lugs from anyone who wants to get rid of them? Should they pull them completely off their site and re-engineer? Should they just take the ones from those who have had problems? Replacements?

I have read most of the threads and haven't really seen a clear, this is what they need to do to make it right.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport No bandwagon, more like witch hunt now. To give you a bit from my perspective and a little a bit about myself.... I started with Mercedes when I was 16. I left Merc 4 yrs later and went to work on Ferraris in So Cal. After that I joined a Subaru group and we went racing on dirt roads. Then I found myself out in the country and worked for a Porsche engine builder and Cart builder. I had almost 20 years of experience wrenching on things that went fast BEFORE I went to engineering school. During school I worked with BMW, VAG, and Merc again. Porsche put Alu lugnuts on cars as an option for a long time. They also put little "hold up tabs" on their valve stems on wheels because the centrifugal force of 150+mph would throw the valve stems out. High performance = high liability. Racing and going fast is an inherently dangerous proposition, and if your not prepared to accept the risk then you have left yourself open to liabilities that you are not prepared for. Personally, I have always tried to stick with the "7 turns" rule. It doesn't always happen that way, but when it doesn't I know and am aware of the possible failure. There is no way for me to measure every wheel available along with spacers from different manufactures to post a definitive chart of what works and what doesn't. In the end it is up to you to decide what is safe ultimately.

Are Porsche lugs two pieces held together with a helicoil?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by someguy So the question to all those upset, what would set this right? Should corksport offer to buy back the lugs from anyone who wants to get rid of them? Should they pull them completely off their site and re-engineer? Should they just take the ones from those who have had problems? Replacements? I have read most of the threads and haven't really seen a clear, this is what they need to do to make it right.

Let's assume Corksport never does anything and still feels these lugs are OK to run. I don't feel they are safe to run, nor does anyone who properly torqued them, didn't run spacers and some other interested msf'rs.

We are making the point, @ least I am, that these lugs are not safe to run.

The back and forth is excessive, I agree, but @ this point, I guess everyone (@ least I am) is stunned @ the way this is being handled.

I don't want anything from CS. I just don't think anyone should run these lugs.

Am I an engineer? No. can I look @ pictures and videos, and was I there when 10 of these broke off a car after going 120+ mph? yes.


AND THIS IS HAPPENING ON REVISION 2... so I really don't trust a revision 3, a discount on revision 2 or whatever is being offered tbh.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by someguy So the question to all those upset, what would set this right? Should corksport offer to buy back the lugs from anyone who wants to get rid of them? Should they pull them completely off their site and re-engineer? Should they just take the ones from those who have had problems? Replacements? I have read most of the threads and haven't really seen a clear, this is what they need to do to make it right.

Issue a recall and take them off the site.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Issue a recall and take them off the site.

Hey Tokay, wanna hear some shit man?... I have an OCC v1 that has a glued on lid.

Take a stab @ who was asked to pay the shipping back in order to swap it for whatever version they are on now?

[lilred]

Google images are already on this... lol

tapafuck

[rfinkle2]

Where is the "trolling" smiley? I could use it.

[bislag]

It doesn't take an in-depth analysis to see there's something wrong. Multiple failures in the exact same manner at the exact same point using proper installation, such as Voltron's case, indicates a problem.

Additionally, I think they're handling this poorly as whole. First they're claiming the lugs are on their race car, but that car is a significantly lighter and less powerful 2. It's a false equivalency. These lugs may very well be fine for a car like the two. That test is not sufficient to state they're also safe on an MS3, and it's not even in the ballpark of being a usable comparison to state they're safe on an MS6.

Second, there has been no response to the cases like Voltron. You can't come out and talk down on those who legitimately made their own mistakes that contributed to the failure with blanket statements that ignore the failures in which proper installation was followed. The issues that occurred on properly installed lugs now needs to be addressed.

For me, I don't have any particular stake in this other than I hate to see this happening. I don't have and haven't had any problems with CS. Their products have always worked fine for me, and I've seen plenty of cases where CS has gone out of their way to help people when there was an issue with their products. That being said, I can't support CS so long as things go unresolved. I'm not going to remove their TIP from my car over this, or run around saying they're a terrible company and not to support them. I am going to speak with my wallet, and I did just that last night. They lost a rear sway bar sale over this.

[I_Heart_Haters]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Hey Tokay, wanna hear some shit man?... I have an OCC v1 that has a glued on lid. Take a stab @ who was asked to pay the shipping back in order to swap it for whatever version they are on now?

They already did this to me. However, I had bought it off of someone on the forum and it was glued and sent it to them to get it fixed...but they lost it for 3 months. They received it June 10th...and just now shipping it back to me. I had to call/email them numerous times just to get a damn answer on where my OCC was. Anyways...back to the failing lug nuts...

[Nliiitend1]

I like their (newer, solid, one-piece) RSB...

[Stingray69]

Originally Posted by bislag It doesn't take an in-depth analysis to see there's something wrong. Multiple failures in the exact same manner at the exact same point using proper installation, such as Voltron's case, indicates a problem. Additionally, I think they're handling this poorly as whole. First they're claiming the lugs are on their race car, but that car is a significantly lighter and less powerful 2. It's a false equivalency. These lugs may very well be fine for a car like the two. That test is not sufficient to state they're also safe on an MS3, and it's not even in the ballpark of being a usable comparison to state they're safe on an MS6. Second, there has been no response to the cases like Voltron. You can't come out and talk down on those who legitimately made their own mistakes that contributed to the failure with blanket statements that ignore the failures in which proper installation was followed. The issues that occurred on properly installed lugs now needs to be addressed. For me, I don't have any particular stake in this other than I hate to see this happening. I don't have and haven't had any problems with CS. Their products have always worked fine for me, and I've seen plenty of cases where CS has gone out of their way to help people when there was an issue with their products. That being said, I can't support CS so long as things go unresolved. I'm not going to remove their TIP from my car over this, or run around saying they're a terrible company and not to support them. I am going to speak with my wallet, and I did just that last night. They lost a rear sway bar sale over this.

This is kind of where I am at. I too have CS parts on my car and will be buying more parts in the future. I have followed this whole situation to see how CS handles it. I am using this forum to do what it is great for, share knowledge from others experience for my future decisions. Call it a witch hunt if you want.

A few observations from my professional experience in handling product complaints and resolutions in manufacturing. If a product is into multiple Revisions the company/engineers acknowledge there is a problem and are looking to correct it. Saying it is working for others while they are showing pictures of failures never works. Saying we are testing it in house and it works while they are showing pictures of failures never works.

I was quite surprised at the response from Joel. I am further surprised by the "we will run them on our car but it isn't even the same model car". It gets even worse with "let me tell you about my personal past and they run them on Porsches". Not the way I would expect a company to handle complaints about their product not holding wheels on cars that they know people drive fast.

Actual test data of the strength of the lug nuts would be more appropriate. If the company has engineers it should not be that hard to test them to failure.

I have said for years in manufacturing everybody make rejects. It is how you deal with them that sets you apart. Again not looking for anything from CS but might think twice where my money goes.

[julienjj]

Just so you guys know, porsches no longer have aluminium lugnuts but they where matched with aluminium studs (under torque they stretched equally thus balancing the load all over the thread), However it was a common mods for owners to replace them with steel ones because they still stripped....

They now use a steel screw that goes in the hub like most euro brand.

CS has to make a move, eitheir go ahead and make a new design, or go full retard.

[Voltron]

Again I asked a simple question for the engineering minds at Corksport..


Why is nobody there able to answer me.

[superdave2335]

Originally Posted by Stingray69 This is kind of where I am at. I too have CS parts on my car and will be buying more parts in the future. I have followed this whole situation to see how CS handles it. I am using this forum to do what it is great for, share knowledge from others experience for my future decisions. Call it a witch hunt if you want. A few observations from my professional experience in handling product complaints and resolutions in manufacturing. If a product is into multiple Revisions the company/engineers acknowledge there is a problem and are looking to correct it. Saying it is working for others while they are showing pictures of failures never works. Saying we are testing it in house and it works while they are showing pictures of failures never works. I was quite surprised at the response from Joel. I am further surprised by the "we will run them on our car but it isn't even the same model car". It gets even worse with "let me tell you about my personal past and they run them on Porsches". Not the way I would expect a company to handle complaints about their product not holding wheels on cars that they know people drive fast. Actual test data of the strength of the lug nuts would be more appropriate. If the company has engineers it should not be that hard to test them to failure. I have said for years in manufacturing everybody make rejects. It is how you deal with them that sets you apart. Again not looking for anything from CS but might think twice where my money goes.

Nothing against you man but where have you seen CS try to rectify anything other than say "uhhh ya I'm Joel and I'm a genius. We run this on our reasonably priced race car" IMO these witches haven't came out and said "let us fix this guys. We got you!" Their responses have been solely negative and defensive all while turning a cold shoulder to our situation which is complete bullshit and a puss move if you ask me.

sent from the igloo.

[btstarcher]

When was this first brought to Corksport's attention? I'm not defending them in any way, but you can't expect an instantaneous response. For one, today is Saturday. An official response will need to come from someone higher up at the company, so it's possible that even though the engineers may WANT to say something, they can't yet. In the meantime there's no sense just stirring shit up. Give them a chance to respond officially.

[doctavus]

I'm really thinking twice about buying a RMM from them now.

I hate companies that don't stick up for their customers.

[Tokay444]

It's really only Joel and now this new guy who thinks he's an engineer as well.
The rest of the company sees alright.

[I_Heart_Haters]

LURKIN'

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by btstarcher When was this first brought to Corksport's attention? I'm not defending them in any way, but you can't expect an instantaneous response. For one, today is Saturday. An official response will need to come from someone higher up at the company, so it's possible that even though the engineers may WANT to say something, they can't yet. In the meantime there's no sense just stirring shit up. Give them a chance to respond officially.

Part of the issue is that there is an existence of a v2, imo. If they had a problem in the past with a batch, this new batch should be bulletproof (if the correct procedure is followed).

They had in between v1 and v2 to get it right.

Oh hell, I don't give a shit if they never answer and post their Mazda 2's tearing around the track winning or all 4 wheels come flying off.

If you have these lugs v1 or v2, spacers or not, as k2 personally stated ...

Originally Posted by K2@corksport In the end it is up to you to decide what is safe ultimately.

[K2]

Originally Posted by btstarcher An official response will need to come from someone higher up at the company, so it's possible that even though the engineers may WANT to say something, they can't yet. In the meantime there's no sense just stirring shit up.

Bingo.

If it were up to me, I'd pull them. But I'd also pull every other part on that planet that ever had an issue and redesign it. I was upset when pixles went bad on my new Samsung screen, and when my new Snapper lawn mower would not start (even though it says "easy start" right on top of the engine cover). As an engineer I work 110% daily to make sure I don't have to warranty things. Lawnmowers and TV's are a pain in the ass to have to return, so are car parts. Now ofcorse when my lawnmower wont start, it's not putting anyones saftey at risk and I am well aware of that. Ironiclly what had failed WAS the safety system designed by Briggs & Stratton.

We will have a meeting. Look at numbers, investigate the complaints and/or failures, and make an informed assessment of the lug nuts as a group of professionals. We will also learn from this and take it into consideration while continuing to provide new parts and systems for the Mazda community.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Bingo. If it were up to me, I'd pull them. But I'd also pull every other part on that planet that ever had an issue and redesign it. I was upset when pixles went bad on my new Samsung screen, and when my new Snapper lawn mower would not start (even though it says "easy start" right on top of the engine cover). As an engineer I work 110% daily to make sure I don't have to warranty things. Lawnmowers and TV's are a pain in the ass to have to return, so are car parts. Now ofcorse when my lawnmower wont start, it's not putting anyones saftey at risk and I am well aware of that. Ironiclly what had failed WAS the safety system designed by Briggs & Stratton. We will have a meeting. Look at numbers, investigate the complaints and/or failures, and make an informed assessment of the lug nuts as a group of professionals. We will also learn from this and take it into consideration while continuing to provide new parts and systems for the Mazda community.

Did Samsung respond to you by telling you that you are trolling with the wrong bait? Did Briggs and Stratton suggest you were on a witch hunt?

How many people do you think held their tongue who had the same problem because they had a loyalty to the company and only when it was thrown in their face did they complain?

Some really poor choices made so far by whomever is posting and running things over there, imo.

I can think of $1000's of dollars worth of business I've sent over there, in combination with the $100's I've always spent. It will be a long time before I recommend CS parts again and I will never give another $ to them.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Bingo. If it were up to me, I'd pull them. But I'd also pull every other part on that planet that ever had an issue and redesign it. I was upset when pixles went bad on my new Samsung screen, and when my new Snapper lawn mower would not start (even though it says "easy start" right on top of the engine cover). As an engineer I work 110% daily to make sure I don't have to warranty things. Lawnmowers and TV's are a pain in the ass to have to return, so are car parts. Now ofcorse when my lawnmower wont start, it's not putting anyones saftey at risk and I am well aware of that. Ironiclly what had failed WAS the safety system designed by Briggs & Stratton. We will have a meeting. Look at numbers, investigate the complaints and/or failures, and make an informed assessment of the lug nuts as a group of professionals. We will also learn from this and take it into consideration while continuing to provide new parts and systems for the Mazda community.

So again, since you seem to be the only one responding.

I have asked time and time again for an answer. You all have blown right by my posts and commented on others.

I don't want a dime from your company.
I never liked any of your parts.
I used these shit lugs because a friend lent them to me to use.

All I WANT IS A ANSWWR FROM JOEL THE SMART FUCKING MOUTH ENGINEER WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos So again, since you seem to be the only one responding. I have asked time and time again for an answer. You all have blown right by my posts and commented on others. I don't want a dime from your company. I never liked any of your parts. I used these shit lugs because a friend lent them to me to use. All I WANT IS A ANSWWR FROM JOEL THE SMART FUCKING MOUTH ENGINEER WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING.

Teddy, I can help...

1) if your air straightener falls out of your maf housing, use rtv to seal it in.

2) if your lightweight pulley fails, cover it up

3) if your catch can's lid flies off, you routed it wrong

4) your lug nuts are fine, you still have 10 that you can use right? Glue them on. It works for catch can lids and maf straighteners.

EDIT: @Joel@CorkSport; NOW I'm trolling... am I doing it right?

[K2]

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos I used these shit lugs because a friend lent them to me to use.

Waita second.....

These nuts were used?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Waita second..... These nuts were used?

Never used until Teddy used them @ the track. I lent them to him brand new out of the box.

The V2 that were sent to me.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Waita second..... These nuts were used?

Nice try.

Brand new. Fickle never used them.

[K2]

Ok. Just needed to clarify.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Waita second..... These nuts were used?

LMFAO

so what you're trying to say is....

These are only good if they are brand new??????

[K2]

If they had been used by someone else that would have been an unknown variable. The more information we have about the failure the more likely we are to make an accurate assessment.

[crackerjak]

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos I'm still waiting for a response on why my lugs snapped.

Wait, So this...

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos And yet I'm still waiting.

and This...

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos Has anyone else noticed they REFUSE to answer me. They answered the other kid, called Rob out, said they would run that whatever they have, but won't answer why my lugs broke when it was within their specs. Funny. Maybe someone should tell them I never go quietly.

And This

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos There's not a sponsored car by this company or any other company that makes the power that some of us make. What fast car uses their parts? Zero. That being said, let me get back to my original point. In the other thread, they clearly stated to the OP that the lugs are not designed to work with spacers, be torqued past 85 and then now 65. You can't use a impact gun. And it obviously won't work with any silver Pus either. So again I will ask. My spacers used independent studs, the rears had no spacers, there was no impact gun used. So how do 10 out of 20 lugs break coming off, after 9 runs, spread out in 2 weeks?

This...

Originally Posted by Voltron Locos Again I asked a simple question for the engineering minds at Corksport.. Why is nobody there able to answer me.

And Once Again This

Originally Posted by K2@corksport Waita second..... These nuts were used?

But this is what you choose to answer? That comes off like a witch hunt to me...

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[btstarcher]

I was thinking more along the lines of the possibility that a used item might have been overtorqued or installed improperly previously, thereby weakening them. Since they're new, the company can document the failure properly.

[GODspeed7]

No what it sounded like to me is that they are only good for one application. Put them on and torque them down. Once you take them back off, they are no longer any good.

[Haltech]

It's my opinion based off looking at pictures of the failures, there's something wrong. These lugs have too many restrictions and even when the parameters of such restrictions are met, they are failing. This isn't sitting well with me based off the photographs I've spent half the morning reviewing. Lugs should not fail.. Ricer mode engaged or not guys.

Reviewing comments by machinist such as Brock, should be taken seriously.