Guys, sorry about the away time but I have good news and bad news.

[ptperformance]

I have been away for a few weeks but I have some very very interersting stuff to report back on.

I will try to get in here a little tonight and post up what we have found, and we have some new products to show you.

I will be getting in here much more now that the big turbo Caliber project has been completed. We did not finish or start the big turbo Mazdaspeed project for a very good reason. No matter how much fuel you throw at the MS3 or 6, your never going to make more then 400 WHP on the direct injection. Even if you have twin intake 255 pumps, you will never be able to over come the major problem with the DI.

I will get in here some tonight to explain and some more over the next week. Its really going to piss some of you off, and some of you are going to understand finally what has been holding the car back. I will talk to you all soon about this and thanks for hanging in there with me on my vacancy's from the site.

[crazyitalian041]

Sub.

[phailerider]

well thats why we need a second PI fuel rail. i think 400 is a bit low tho.... the vws made over 600 on their DI. whats our holdup compared to them?

[skeeter149]

hmmmm

[Renzokuken]

Originally Posted by palerider well thats why we need a second PI fuel rail. i think 400 is a bit low tho.... the vws made over 600 on their DI. whats our holdup compared to them?

Mazda engineering............




















I kid I kid, dont kill me.

[bf360]

i feel like weve heard this before, more theorys

[Darksun280]

The cobalt's can't get much past 400whp either cause of the DI. I told you guys what it was with how the fuel is injected and how much time it has to inject fuel.

[Smoker6]

God damnit. Fuck it. Time for an LS1 swap.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Renzokuken Mazda engineering............

isnt the whole purpose of the aftermarket to... improve oem engineering and hardware?

im gonna rip the whole uel system off my gti if i have to. theres absolutely no reason why our system cant be made to support the 600whp that the vws made on their smaller engines. its just a matter of getting people involved who can "get things done".

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 The cobalt's can't get much past 400whp either cause of the DI. I told you guys what it was with how the fuel is injected and how much time it has to inject fuel.

i really think every di car has a limit that cant be surpassed for some reason, possibly with what you mentioned with the fuel, would a secondary fuel rail solve that?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by bf360 i feel like weve heard this before, more theorys

No this one is a fact dips into the physics of how DI works. If Im not mistaken our injectors are barely working hard BUT with DI its about how much fuel you can inject in a VERY short window so we don't need injectors that can flow more fuel we need injectors that can flow more fuel FASTER in that small ass window.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 No this one is a fact dips into the physics of how DI works. If Im not mistaken our injectors are barely working hard BUT with DI its about how much fuel you can inject in a VERY short window so we don't need injectors that can flow more fuel we need injectors that can flow more fuel FASTER in that small ass window.

i was talking more towards ptp, your theory seems right but how the fuck did the gti do it?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by bf360 i really think every di car has a limit that cant be surpassed for some reason, possibly with what you mentioned with the fuel, would a secondary fuel rail solve that?

I don't think so anymore because Di mixs fuel differently and at a different speed on top the piston then a non DI car so to throw a steady stream of fuel in there aint gonna do shit.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by bf360 i really think every di car has a limit that cant be surpassed for some reason, possibly with what you mentioned with the fuel, would a secondary fuel rail solve that?

sure it would. and for $3000 bucks i'll change your entire motor over to PI with a mazda 3 head, and supply the standalone to control it. hows a 1000whp sound?

im sick of all the pussyfooting. who gives a fuck if we stick to just di. i pulled the stock airbox off the car because it sucked.... and if i have to do fuel the same way, then so be it.

[Grim]

Since our HPFP is cam driven cant we just get cams that change the time of when fuel is injected?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider well thats why we need a second PI fuel rail. i think 400 is a bit low tho.... the vws made over 600 on their DI. whats our holdup compared to them?

I will start another thread on this, we don't have injector faze control. This is why the VW guys can make the higher numbers, that and the larger injectors that they can run.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I don't think so anymore because Di mixs fuel differently and at a different speed on top the piston then a non DI car so to throw a steady stream of fuel in there aint gonna do shit.

makes more sense, so i wonder if faster flowing injectors would fix that

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by bf360 i was talking more towards ptp, your theory seems right but how the fuck did the gti do it?

I was just thinking the same thing..... shit while randy is fucking with DCR he needs to go knock on Atp's door or else there gonna end up trying to reinvent the wheel when someone already might have answers for us. Not my problem anymore thank god its a headache.....

[mouse0330]

that's what I'm afraid of, the speed 3 set up is fairly new, vw/Audi engine is different,
so I Darksun and the others have every right to get piss, I am now disappointed about the engine.
looking forward to your explanation.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I don't think so anymore because Di mixs fuel differently and at a different speed on top the piston then a non DI car so to throw a steady stream of fuel in there aint gonna do shit.

some di work that way, but it is well documented that our fuel burns homogenously in the cylinder. we just have to get it in there. this has been discussed already.

strangely enough the vws have a lean burn effect with hot spots in their cylinders. but STILL they made 605whp and they did it on a 2.0l engine.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bf360 i feel like weve heard this before, more theorys

Nope, confirmation on what we have to work with. The motor cannot go past 400 WHP, nada zip. To be honest with you its more like 386 WHP and 410 CHP. I will get into this here in a bit.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 The cobalt's can't get much past 400whp either cause of the DI. I told you guys what it was with how the fuel is injected and how much time it has to inject fuel.

Ding, this is where I have been doing most of my digging, 395 WHP and the Cobalt motors go boom. Its the time, trust me we killed 2 different hard lines going to the rail and then cracked a rail. We saw pressures as high as 3000 psi and took over control of the DI pump control solenoid. Nothing is going to get us over this 400 WHP mark. We need phase control of the injector.

Originally Posted by palerider isnt the whole purpose of the aftermarket to... improve oem engineering and hardware? im gonna rip the whole uel system off my gti if i have to. theres absolutely no reason why our system cant be made to support the 600whp that the vws made on their smaller engines. its just a matter of getting people involved who can "get things done".

Randy, its not that. You need injector control, it doesnt matter if you throw 5000 PSI at the injector you don't have enough time to get the fuel in there, physics is going to win untill you have phase control of the injectors.

Originally Posted by bf360 i really think every di car has a limit that cant be surpassed for some reason, possibly with what you mentioned with the fuel, would a secondary fuel rail solve that?

Yes, the secondary fuel rail is "HUGE"! This will allow you to get over that 400 WHP mark. I have a call into COBB asking about phase control, if all goes well we should have answeres in a few weeks.

[bf360]

but like phil said, there is only a certain amount of time to inject the fuel in there, so how would injecting fuel through a conventional rail work if its not volume thats the problem

[Darksun280]

Well good luck guys I knew about this and have seen it on the dyno. Flowing more air just aggravates the issue from a big turbo cause the mix is all fucked up. Car tries to keep up injectors can't your injecting fuel on the exhaust stroke and shitting black smoke out the back of your car like a choo choo train. Been there had fun but I wantz my stock turbo Ms3 back.....

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by bf360 but like phil said, there is only a certain amount of time to inject the fuel in there, so how would injecting fuel through a conventional rail work if its not volume thats the problem

You get a secondary rail and a controller and inject fuel during the same time as the stock one. The controllers for Di injectors are easy to get the rail design is another issue.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 No this one is a fact dips into the physics of how DI works. If Im not mistaken our injectors are barely working hard BUT with DI its about how much fuel you can inject in a VERY short window so we don't need injectors that can flow more fuel we need injectors that can flow more fuel FASTER in that small ass window.

Yep, we have a winner and to be honest with you we were running near 90+% on the stock injectors during testing. You have full control of the injectors with the COBB which is great, bad thing, we are about maxed out with the window of operation time that we are allowed.

Originally Posted by bf360 i was talking more towards ptp, your theory seems right but how the fuck did the gti do it?

Injector phase control, as soon as we have this... 600 WHP will happen for us as well.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I don't think so anymore because Di mixs fuel differently and at a different speed on top the piston then a non DI car so to throw a steady stream of fuel in there aint gonna do shit.

If you could just turn the injector on while the exhaust valve was still open? I hope you see what I am getting at now .

Originally Posted by palerider sure it would. and for $3000 bucks i'll change your entire motor over to PI with a mazda 3 head, and supply the standalone to control it. hows a 1000whp sound? im sick of all the pussyfooting. who gives a fuck if we stick to just di. i pulled the stock airbox off the car because it sucked.... and if i have to do fuel the same way, then so be it.

Throw wheelbarrows of money at the car and you will still have the problems there. If I am correct the only EMS working on a DI car (if you decide to keep this as your fuel source) is the Motec. That set up was over $5k alone to get it working (BMW shop is the only company that has manged this). Then you have the rising and falling rate t-body signals, then you have blah blah blah. I got over 400 WHP with my Caliber with 1/10 the money it would take with the MS3. This is why I decided to spend my current time on that car, its easier to make the power with.

Randy, give me the money hand over fist and I will get your MS3 over 1000 WHP. Easy, swap it out for a conventional injected motor, PCM, harness and boost the shit out of it. Really doesn't apply to the market I am building parts for but it would be cool.

Originally Posted by Grim Since our HPFP is cam driven cant we just get cams that change the time of when fuel is injected?

Nope, you don't have enough time to get the fuel into the motor. We currently have a fire hose pouring fuel into the motor, we just don't have the time to keep it on longer.

[crazyitalian041]

Uhm... Dee from reactive racing is using a ms3 motor with a mz3 head and making GOBS of power on a mz3 standalone...

[Darksun280]

I had Raw fuel coming out my exhaust on the dyno on my last pull cranked the Boost controller up to all hell and gained 5 whp LOL hope no ones questions me too much about why im going back to a more stocked out Ms3

PS. You can over come the injector thing with Nitrous. My guess is even a 35 shot with a bigturbo would send you to the stars. Hell even a stock turbo. And no its not cause nitrous is nitrous its because of the way Di works and what nitrous does when just injected in there all willy nilly

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Well good luck guys I knew about this and have seen it on the dyno. Flowing more air just aggravates the issue from a big turbo cause the mix is all fucked up. Car tries to keep up injectors can't your injecting fuel on the exhaust stroke and shitting black smoke out the back of your car like a choo choo train. Been there had fun but I wantz my stock turbo Ms3 back.....

Twin m10 meth nozzles worked wonders on the DI motor on one of the Cobalts. I think that they are getting very close to breaking the 400 WHP mark and its starting to run out of turbo from what I have been told. If you need any help with the meth on your car let me know, we have been screwing around with twin nozzles for a while now and with some very good luck.

This is why we have decided to stick a lot into our SST for the Mazdaspeed. With 350 WHP on tap and a great daily driver, you cannot go wrong. More to come on that as well, SST should be into and over 350 WHP by this time next month.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Twin m10 meth nozzles worked wonders on the DI motor on one of the Cobalts. I think that they are getting very close to breaking the 400 WHP mark and its starting to run out of turbo from what I have been told. If you need any help with the meth on your car let me know, we have been screwing around with twin nozzles for a while now and with some very good luck. This is why we have decided to stick a lot into our SST for the Mazdaspeed. With 350 WHP on tap and a great daily driver, you cannot go wrong. More to come on that as well, SST should be into and over 350 WHP by this time next month.

ok now i know ive defintely heard the sst should be over 350whp by this time lol

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Twin m10 meth nozzles worked wonders on the DI motor on one of the Cobalts. I think that they are getting very close to breaking the 400 WHP mark and its starting to run out of turbo from what I have been told. If you need any help with the meth on your car let me know, we have been screwing around with twin nozzles for a while now and with some very good luck. This is why we have decided to stick a lot into our SST for the Mazdaspeed. With 350 WHP on tap and a great daily driver, you cannot go wrong. More to come on that as well, SST should be into and over 350 WHP by this time next month.

They have one guy that eeked over 400 whp but not by alot and they hit a BIG fucking wall.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Twin m10 meth nozzles worked wonders on the DI motor on one of the Cobalts. I think that they are getting very close to breaking the 400 WHP mark and its starting to run out of turbo from what I have been told. If you need any help with the meth on your car let me know, we have been screwing around with twin nozzles for a while now and with some very good luck. This is why we have decided to stick a lot into our SST for the Mazdaspeed. With 350 WHP on tap and a great daily driver, you cannot go wrong. More to come on that as well, SST should be into and over 350 WHP by this time next month.

I was thinking that but then realized nitrous is easier. a nice unsafe dry shot spray some meth to keep down cyl temps and hope for the best.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by mouse0330 that's what I'm afraid of, the speed 3 set up is fairly new, vw/Audi engine is different, so I Darksun and the others have every right to get piss, I am now disappointed about the engine. looking forward to your explanation.

Its not so much that they are different, just they have different control of the injectors. Its like compairing apples to oranges. Sure there both fruit, but thats about it.

Originally Posted by palerider some di work that way, but it is well documented that our fuel burns homogenously in the cylinder. we just have to get it in there. this has been discussed already. strangely enough the vws have a lean burn effect with hot spots in their cylinders. but STILL they made 605whp and they did it on a 2.0l engine.

Randy, damn dude. We don't have the control that the VW and Audi's have with the injectors. They have phase control of there injectors, more or less they can decide when to open them and when to close them. We don't. Mazda has only given us a window to work with that is X miliseconds long. The VW and Audi guys can turn the injectors on for a full second if they want to, we don't have that control over the PCM yet. I have been in contact with COBB on this and I am hoping that they will have this soon, if they do then we will be able to make the 600 WHP like the VW and Audi guys. Till then, we are stuck at 386 WHP max (this is what the math and physics have told me and I am going to stick to it).

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bf360 ok now i know ive defintely heard the sst should be over 350whp by this time lol

Had to max out the stocker first, 333 WHP good enough for you on the stock manifold and turbo? I have seen the charts and now we are moving on to the SST on the same set up. Will we make more then 350 WHP, I would be willing to bet on it.

I have to say that if you wanted to see it so bad, you should buy one so you can be one of the first to make it happen. Either that or you could prove me wrong that it never will, take that with a grain of salt. .

[mexicant]

im buying stock in the 4g63

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Its not so much that they are different, just they have different control of the injectors. Its like compairing apples to oranges. Sure there both fruit, but thats about it. Randy, damn dude. We don't have the control that the VW and Audi's have with the injectors. They have phase control of there injectors, more or less they can decide when to open them and when to close them. We don't. Mazda has only given us a window to work with that is X miliseconds long. The VW and Audi guys can turn the injectors on for a full second if they want to, we don't have that control over the PCM yet. I have been in contact with COBB on this and I am hoping that they will have this soon, if they do then we will be able to make the 600 WHP like the VW and Audi guys. Till then, we are stuck at 386 WHP max (this is what the math and physics have told me and I am going to stick to it).

I gotta agree with him on this one. I thought I could muscle my way to some big power number but you can't beat the math. Also the more air I tried to force through the lower my numbers went 18 psi 345 whp 20 psi 330whp get mad and crank it up to god knows what 335whp........

[phailerider]

ok john.... fine. youre definitely on to something here and i agree with your reasoning. it makes alot of sense. but the sky isnt falling.... if anything its a bit of a breakthrough. we just get the tables and change them like the vw guys did. then done.

there are tables in the ecu that effect this right? thats the obvious point right?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 They have one guy that eeked over 400 whp but not by alot and they hit a BIG fucking wall.

Yes, its a like they can throw anything at the car and its just saying "PISS OFF"! These Cobalt guys are super sharp and have been doing 4 and 8 channel lab scope testing of things that I never even thought of. After seeing what they were doing I decided to jump into the mix with the MS3 PCM, and to my surprise... we have the same problem but its just about .15 miliseconds less time for fuel dump then they have. This is why we are stuck at the HP numbers that we are stuck at.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I was thinking that but then realized nitrous is easier. a nice unsafe dry shot spray some meth to keep down cyl temps and hope for the best.

Yep, just runs lots and lots of meth. Works like a 5th injectors and you can abuse the boost with the proper sized jets running on the car. We ran a 1 gallon tank dry the other night in just about 2 hours of racing around, got very lucky that we didn't nuke the motor.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 08ms3bm im buying stock in the 4g63

LOL, we just picked up a shop car that is running in a colt and has around 375 WHP. Now that car is just flat scary, all 2000 lbs of it.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I gotta agree with him on this one. I thought I could muscle my way to some big power number but you can't beat the math. Also the more air I tried to force through the lower my numbers went 18 psi 345 whp 20 psi 330whp get mad and crank it up to god knows what 335whp........

You ran into the same problems that we did, this is why we started adding bigger and bigger and one more and bigger second one, and on and on and on meth nozzles. We were able to add fuel with the pure meth that we were running and get that 5th injector effect from it. Then you run into the damn MAF limit... fuck!!!! I hate this car. I am going to hold out for Cobb to give us some good news.

Originally Posted by palerider ok john.... fine. youre definitely on to something here and i agree with your reasoning. it makes alot of sense. but the sky isnt falling.... if anything its a bit of a breakthrough. we just get the tables and change them like the vw guys did. then done. there are tables in the ecu that effect this right? thats the obvious point right?

No thank god, the sky is not falling. Yes and no, its not really "tables" to change them, a different section of the PCM code has to be cracked so we can get more "on time" for the injectors. If we could turn the injectors on about mid way through the exhaust stroke, that should give us around double the injector on time. This would allow you to get your 600 WHP from the MS3 PCM. If someone would just build us a FIC for the DI motors, we would be golden.

Yes that would be the changes that we would need to make, but I believe it has not been cracked yet in the PCM. If it never gets cracked, then secondary fuel rails are going to be the norm for this car to get the power out of them.

[ptperformance]

Good news, we got the STS done and it works better then the other on the market (well I think it does).

[Fobio]

thanks for all the great info. looks like the start of something big.