Guys, sorry about the away time but I have good news and bad news.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider ok john.... fine. youre definitely on to something here and i agree with your reasoning. it makes alot of sense. but the sky isnt falling.... if anything its a bit of a breakthrough. we just get the tables and change them like the vw guys did. then done. there are tables in the ecu that effect this right? thats the obvious point right?

Know what made my eyes twitch Randy that I ignored such a big thing for so long and thought I could just muscle my way past it with reckless ness and a boost knob...

Originally Posted by ptperformance Yes, its a like they can throw anything at the car and its just saying "PISS OFF"! These Cobalt guys are super sharp and have been doing 4 and 8 channel lab scope testing of things that I never even though of. After seeing what they were doing I decided to jump into the mix with the MS3 PCM, and to my surprise... we have the same problem but its just about .15 miliseconds less time for fuel dump then they have. This is why we are stuck at the HP numbers that we are stuck at. Yep, just runs lots and lots of meth. Works like a 5th injectors and you can abuse the boost with the proper sized jets running on the car. We ran a 1 gallon tank dry the other night in just about 2 hours of racing around, got very lucky that we didn't nuke the motor.

I Knew what it would take to try and over come the hurdle. Honestly I just didn't have the stomach for it anymore. I've Tried to blow my self up 3 times so far while on the dyno and guess what its really hard to do cause if your car wants to dump fuel with Di it has MORE then enough to put even a GT35r big turbo Ms3 on 30 psi into 10 flat A/f's. We got plenty of fuel just not when we need it lol

[mexicant]

would like a ride in said colt. thanks

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Fobio thanks for all the great info. looks like the start of something big.

Not a problem, I was starting to get frustrated and decided to take a step back and start asking around before it killed yet another motor. If people take the time to listen to what is said in this thread, we will start to see some great things coming from this community.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Know what made my eyes twitch Randy that I ignored such a big thing for so long and thought I could just muscle my way past it with reckless ness and a boost knob... I Knew what it would take to try and over come the hurdle. Honestly I just didn't have the stomach for it anymore. I've Tried to blow my self up 3 times so far while on the dyno and guess what its really hard to do cause if your car wants to dump fuel with Di it has MORE then enough to put even a GT35r big turbo Ms3 on 30 psi into 10 flat A/f's. We got plenty of fuel just not when we need it lol

I didn't want to belive it either, but after listening to these Cobalt guys and how they went about figuring out the problem... I had to try on the MS.

If you log that dump with the bigger turbos, its dumping fuel during the exhaust cycle and a lot of it. Thus it slows down the turbine wheel and will not allow it to spool up and keeps the exhaust velocity around poop speed. This is the part of the PCM that needs to be unlocked, after they get this and the phase control up and running there are going to be some wicked fast MS3 and 6's on the streets. I just hope that they can take the time to get that part open to us.

Originally Posted by 08ms3bm would like a ride in said colt. thanks

He just lost 3rd and 4th gear. New ACT clutch is sitting here and we will be up and running again soon. I would have to say show up to the KK meets on Friday and Saturday nights and we will have an open seat for you. I want to tell you that the car is a rolling bucket and a POS, but its damn fast.

[ptperformance]

I see a ton of you looking in this thread so I hope that everything is understood with this. If you guys get a chance, please ask questions if I missed anything. Thanks.

[m4tic]

so...pretty much no more modding until this is unlocked

[Lex]

Lol, I've mentioned this before and no one listened. You can only inject fuel on the intake and compression stroke of the motor with DI.

For homogeneous mixtures, fuel is generally injected during the intake stroke. On an engine moving at 7000 RPM, the intake stroke takes around 4ms. So you have a very limited amount of time to inject that fuel.

You can run bigger injectors but you have to recalibrate the ECM for them and make sure that they can still have a small enough opening time so that the car can idle

You can run more pressure but you have to again recalibrate for this.

More pressure at WOT will actually be the easiest way to get more fuel in the chamber.

Or you can run an external fuel source like some sort of injectors in the intake tract.

In order to do all this, YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO RECALIBRATE THE ECM. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT CONTROL THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS.

Yes, there are physical restrictions to DI, and it's good to understand them, but without being able to control and recalibrate your sensors and actuators you're dead in the water and dealing with maxed out MAFs and cuts from the stock ECU.

[babcockxmx]

not if ur under 380whp you shouldnt stop.

this will never be a problem for 90% of us on here because we wont( i knoow i wont) be making those numbers on my dd.

But it will be figured out and i think atr and cobb could be the key to this issue

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I didn't want to belive it either, but after listening to these Cobalt guys and how they went about figuring out the problem... I had to try on the MS. If you log that dump with the bigger turbos, its dumping fuel during the exhaust cycle and a lot of it. Thus it slows down the turbine wheel and will not allow it to spool up and keeps the exhaust velocity around poop speed. This is the part of the PCM that needs to be unlocked, after they get this and the phase control up and running there are going to be some wicked fast MS3 and 6's on the streets. I just hope that they can take the time to get that part open to us. .

It broke my heart after my last dyno cause I had to admit defeat. All the people telling me that power is around the way and to stick with it probably had little to any knowledge of the injector duration thing.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bmorrisj so...pretty much no more modding until this is unlocked

No, just keep it under 350 WHP in your situation (AWD)

Originally Posted by Lex Lol, I've mentioned this before and no one listened. You can only inject fuel on the intake and compression stroke of the motor with DI. For homogeneous mixtures, fuel is generally injected during the intake stroke. On an engine moving at 7000 RPM, the intake stroke takes around 4ms. So you have a very limited amount of time to inject that fuel. You can run bigger injectors but you have to recalibrate the ECM for them and make sure that they can still have a small enough opening time so that the car can idle You can run more pressure but you have to again recalibrate for this. More pressure at WOT will actually be the easiest way to get more fuel in the chamber. Or you can run an external fuel source like some sort of injectors in the intake tract. In order to do all this, YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO RECALIBRATE THE ECM. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT CONTROL THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS. Yes, there are physical restrictions to DI, and it's good to understand them, but without being able to control and recalibrate your sensors and actuators you're dead in the water and dealing with maxed out MAFs and cuts from the stock ECU.

We can recalibrate for the larger injectors, MAF housing, higher pressures, ect. The damn PCM is to smart and it can see when you are trying to go out side its limits. Did you know that the car will set a code for too high of rail pressure (block the return and you will find out the hard way like me). We have the control that we need, just not the injector "on time". I have talked with Cobb about this and they understand what we need, it just has not been unlocked yet or they have not released it yet. Either way I am sure that at some point we are going to be able to run the higher HP and boost levels.... its just the time that is going to kill us (we all want it know!!!).

Originally Posted by babcockxmx not if ur under 380whp you shouldnt stop. this will never be a problem for 90% of us on here because we wont( i knoow i wont) be making those numbers on my dd. But it will be figured out and i think atr and cobb could be the key to this issue

This is why we have decided to attack the SST market for you guys. We will have Cobb building a conservative tune for the SST so all you that have the SST can have the power and a tune to work with. This should be huge since the Racers Package is still on the table to get released sometime.

Originally Posted by Darksun280 It broke my heart after my last dyno cause I had to admit defeat. All the people telling me that power is around the way and to stick with it probably had little to any knowledge of the injector duration thing.

Like I said, meth and lots of it. Or you can do a super uber rich N2O shot, you just have to keep the MAF undercontrol or lclamp the voltage signal to keep it from maxing out. I suspect that with a shot running very rich you could break the 400 WHP mark pretty easy. Just make sure that you don't run out of volume from the intake fuel pump (which you shouldn't since you have that niffty 255 in there).

[Lex]

If you can recalibrate for the higher pressures and car throws a CEL, then you have to change that part of the logic as well.

Of course it will throw a CEL for a clogged line, it's a potentially dangerous condition.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex If you can recalibrate for the higher pressures and car throws a CEL, then you have to change that part of the logic as well. Of course it will throw a CEL for a clogged line, it's a potentially dangerous condition.

Yes, there is lots of sensor confirmation with this PCM. If you change the DS of the injectors pulse width, you had better let the MAF calibration know that you have done this as well at the target AFR's, and oh did I mention that the injectors will have to remap the ignition advance? Yes its a turd of system to work with, but we have to figure something out to get the power out of these cars or the model will be dead to the higher HP group.

Yea, but its not listed on the codes list. I had to call a Cobb dealer and wait 2 days to get an answer on the code. The damn FSM doesn't even list the code that we got when we decided to block the return line coming off the rail, it was exciting when the hard line exploded with 3000 + psi in it. Now I know why they put that little strap at the end of the hard line where it connects to the rail. .

[JumpingJackson]

Sad ECU news is sad.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Sad ECU news is sad.

Sad yes, good news is we know about it now. This means we can start working on a solution for it. Bad news is that if you want injectors control, you will have to buy a cobb AP. Good news, we are a dealer for them now . I will have some details on that here very soon so you guys can start ordering them from us. Thanks.

[SpdFreak]

Originally Posted by bf360 i really think every di car has a limit that cant be surpassed for some reason, possibly with what you mentioned with the fuel, would a secondary fuel rail solve that?

No limit on this car and its FWD. MK5 ED30 12.6@115.85

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by SpdFreak No limit on this car and its FWD. MK5 ED30 12.6@115.85

Those are great cars, but we have been very close to those numbers with the SST on a tuned and bolted MS3. That is about where we are stuck, but we have things to look forward to, now that we have the issue addressed. Come on injector control.

[Haltech]

Well i dont think we are done yet. Look at the VW/AUDI guys. They are finally hitting 600 hp but it took a more advanced fuel system feeding system to accomplish this.

It involves bigger injectors
New intake fuel pump
New electronics after the pump
And a new set of lines

Now, with the more advanced options with Cobb's software, this is worth a shot before giving up and going stand alone.

[Scatt Nasty]

330WHP on stock turbo is fine with me. Regardless I still hope COBB can save the day with this one. Hell, I might stop bitching about ATR if they can crack injector cycles.

[6-Speed-6]

Being a computer guy, I was always curious how one cracks a section of the PCM. Is it a matter of having a dedicated computer or computers trying to crack a PCM by looping through a routine and trying various codes to crack the section?

[Deadman]

so does ATR/cobb allow control over injector cycles? Maybe Christian can chime in? Someone?

[superskaterxes]

can someone dumb this situation down a little?

we have the amount of volume of fuel we need but we cant inject it fast enough? so basically we can flow say 10000mg/cyc but only 7k of that will actually reach this cylinder in time?

[Darksun280]

Sorry if I was ranting alittle bit last night guys I was just upset alittle bit.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ptperformance No thank god, the sky is not falling. Yes and no, its not really "tables" to change them, a different section of the PCM code has to be cracked so we can get more "on time" for the injectors. If we could turn the injectors on about mid way through the exhaust stroke, that should give us around double the injector on time. This would allow you to get your 600 WHP from the MS3 PCM. If someone would just build us a FIC for the DI motors, we would be golden. Yes that would be the changes that we would need to make, but I believe it has not been cracked yet in the PCM. If it never gets cracked, then secondary fuel rails are going to be the norm for this car to get the power out of them.

ok...two things... and nobody pass out. im gonna do this thing over here with dcr. and hopefully john can handle the west coast as well.

1. about the secondary fuel rail...
weve been discussing this at length here. what needs to be the exact correlation between the the di and the pi. its easy to get a IM with injectors and then to control it. but how difficult will it be to integrate it with whats already happening with the di. when we get past 350whp... and the stock di, what will happen if we start dumping more fuel in with the pi. is it going to still fritz out the computer if we just add fuel? it seems like it would.
john... you once mentioned a year ago that a guy you knew in Florida had already overcome this. what are your thoughts specifically on the sencondary rail and the ability to integrate it immediately?

2. about our tuning solutions
this discussion absolutely solidifys my argument that the ap cant make power on a big turbo. the cpe solution blocks the ecus logic to shut things down and is a stop gap to a higher number for now, but now seems limited to over 360ishwhp. the AP may be even worse until we get the phasing worked out.
theres lots of bad news here...but good news as well. i think we will overcome the problem for the simple fact that we may have just identified the issue finally.

i will have over 600+whp in my car by the end of this year. i dont care if i switch to complete PI with a new head. im gonna do it. this fall i get a 2010 ms3.... that will be the one i will be "patient" with.
bottom line is for $6000-7000....if we wanted to...we will be able to take guys with stock motors and switch them to completely built, badass PI hybrid motors controlled with a standalone like dee k runs in his drag car. its a fairly easy swap and one we may want to investigate much more thouroughly if Cobb or cpe dont give us a solution soon.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes can someone dumb this situation down a little? we have the amount of volume of fuel we need but we cant inject it fast enough? so basically we can flow say 10000mg/cyc but only 7k of that will actually reach this cylinder in time?

So your injector can flow 7000mg's of fuel every .05ms seconds at its max. We have ability to Add more fuel but to bump it up to 10000mg's our injectors can only supply that in .068 ms. since you can only inject on the intake stroke that extra .018 it takes to supply the extra fuel you requested bleeds over to still spraying during the exhaust stroke. Loss of power, black smoke, and raw fuel out your exhaust now begins.

That a REAL ruff example and none of those numbers are true.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 6-Speed-6 Being a computer guy, I was always curious how one cracks a section of the PCM. Is it a matter of having a dedicated computer or computers trying to crack a PCM by looping through a routine and trying various codes to crack the section?

Hex Editor, preferably, one using Linux...

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes can someone dumb this situation down a little? we have the amount of volume of fuel we need but we cant inject it fast enough? so basically we can flow say 10000mg/cyc but only 7k of that will actually reach this cylinder in time?

Incorrect.. we do NOT have the volume, only the pressure.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider ok...two things... and nobody pass out. im gonna do this thing over here with dcr. and hopefully john can handle the west coast as well. 1. about the secondary fuel rail... weve been discussing this at length here. what needs to be the exact correlation between the the di and the pi. its easy to get a IM with injectors and then to control it. but how difficult will it be to integrate it with whats already happening with the di. when we get past 350whp... and the stock di, what will happen if we start dumping more fuel in with the pi. is it going to still fritz out the computer if we just add fuel? it seems like it would. john... you once mentioned a year ago that a guy you knew in Florida had already overcome this. what are your thoughts specifically on the sencondary rail and the ability to integrate it immediately?

Well, the secondary fueling does NOT have to be through the intake manifold. I will lead you on to a little secret.. Goto your local Mazda dealer and pop the hood on a new Mazda 3... What mazda did was use a DISI head with a injector manifold adapter on it.. That injector manifold adapter bolts on to place, housing the 4 injectors. So, Mazda already made this part without having to goto the extreme of fabbing and/or purchasing a new sheetmetal intake. All you need is the part# and voila.

Secondly, get an injector driver and you are 3/4 of the way there. The rest is in the tuning which will not being entirely difficult, but not cake either. Its going to take a bit of work.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, the secondary fueling does NOT have to be through the intake manifold. I will lead you on to a little secret.. Goto your local Mazda dealer and pop the hood on a new Mazda 3... What mazda did was use a DISI head with a injector manifold adapter on it.. That injector manifold adapter bolts on to place, housing the 4 injectors. So, Mazda already made this part without having to goto the extreme of fabbing and/or purchasing a new sheetmetal intake. All you need is the part# and voila. Secondly, get an injector driver and you are 3/4 of the way there. The rest is in the tuning which will not being entirely difficult, but not cake either. Its going to take a bit of work.

you got to be kidding me here. thats friggin awesome.

id still want an aftermarket intake manifold tho. theres no way were making the kind of numbers were after unless we do it anyway.

[phailerider]

wait a minute.... what happened to the injectors IN THE HEAD? how the fuck is that integrated on the mazda3? are those plugged or something?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider wait a minute.... what happened to the injectors IN THE HEAD? how the fuck is that integrated on the mazda3? are those plugged or something?

Dunno, couldnt cram my forehead in there to look. I would imagine they are plugged.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Dunno, couldnt cram my forehead in there to look. I would imagine they are plugged.

wow. but youre sure its the same head? why the hell would mazda do something like that?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, the secondary fueling does NOT have to be through the intake manifold. I will lead you on to a little secret.. Goto your local Mazda dealer and pop the hood on a new Mazda 3... What mazda did was use a DISI head with a injector manifold adapter on it.. That injector manifold adapter bolts on to place, housing the 4 injectors. So, Mazda already made this part without having to goto the extreme of fabbing and/or purchasing a new sheetmetal intake. All you need is the part# and voila. Secondly, get an injector driver and you are 3/4 of the way there. The rest is in the tuning which will not being entirely difficult, but not cake either. Its going to take a bit of work.

well that's pretty neat!

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider wow. but youre sure its the same head? why the hell would mazda do something like that?

To save money and eventually go direct inject NA like they said they were. Think about the costs of them producing 2 seperate heads. Also, theres been talk they may drop this engine into a hopped up version of a Mazda 3 GT of some sort later down the road when they re-do the power upgrade to the speed in a few years. Who really knows if it would happen, but the fact they can use one head across both cars is a no brainer, cost wise.

[phailerider]

note to self....
be on the lookout for a 2010 mazda3, and rearend the shit out of it in 2008 gti. collect insurance on gti and make offer on mazda3.

[Lex]

Injector phasing? Is that a technical term? What does it mean PTP? I think there's still some thinking you have to do about all this.

As long as the system stays unchanged, a higher pressure will result in a higher volume of fuel for the same opening time. Now, don't go to 3000psi because the system is not rated for this. You have to be smart about controlling the spill valve and I think you guys might have brute forced it with all or nothing.

Try 1900psi, 2000psi. Try it in small steps until you achieve the desired fueling. This will require some fine tuning and something as "simple" as a piggyback should be able to control this if the stock ECU hasn't been "cracked" to do this.

Big question is, have you been able to successfully recalibrate the MAF? Otherwise you're stuck at around 350whp give or take a few.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider note to self.... be on the lookout for a 2010 mazda3, and rearend the shit out of it in 2008 gti. collect insurance on gti and make offer on mazda3.

No need, i cant see this part costing an arm and a leg man.. Your deductible would probably be more then the part!

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by whoosh well that's pretty neat!

Read your PM so i can yell at you Ron.

[ptperformance]

Great info guys and Hal, yes they plug them. If I were to swap over to PI I would want to weld those plugs into the head, I would not want to take the chance of one of those coming out at very high HP levels.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Lex Injector phasing? Is that a technical term? What does it mean PTP? I think there's still some thinking you have to do about all this. As long as the system stays unchanged, a higher pressure will result in a higher volume of fuel for the same opening time. Now, don't go to 3000psi because the system is not rated for this. You have to be smart about controlling the spill valve and I think you guys might have brute forced it with all or nothing. Try 1900psi, 2000psi. Try it in small steps until you achieve the desired fueling. This will require some fine tuning and something as "simple" as a piggyback should be able to control this if the stock ECU hasn't been "cracked" to do this.

Theres still one variable Cobb discovered. The ECU is tapped at a 255 byte length of datastream, hence... why cars like Randy's and Ron's were cutting and acting all fucked up with the supposedly necessary fueling there. The computer is freaking out with this increase number of databits and doesnt know what to do other then go into a limp mode. Again, i think its the entire fuel system from the tank forward that is the problem. Randy and I have talked about it and theres a semi possible solution for this at a cost of $600 without the injectors. Thats not to much change to try it, but Randy's car is pretty much dead and the only other person near him with a bolted BT car is Sean, whom i dont know is willing to guinea pig this shit.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex Injector phasing? Is that a technical term? What does it mean PTP? I think there's still some thinking you have to do about all this. As long as the system stays unchanged, a higher pressure will result in a higher volume of fuel for the same opening time. Now, don't go to 3000psi because the system is not rated for this. You have to be smart about controlling the spill valve and I think you guys might have brute forced it with all or nothing. Try 1900psi, 2000psi. Try it in small steps until you achieve the desired fueling. This will require some fine tuning and something as "simple" as a piggyback should be able to control this if the stock ECU hasn't been "cracked" to do this. Big question is, have you been able to successfully recalibrate the MAF? Otherwise you're stuck at around 350whp give or take a few.

I would have to say that its a tech term and it applies to when the injectors turn on in the crank rotation of the motor.

We have been at 2400 psi for some time now but its not helping. The piggy backs are great for a few minutes untill the PCM tries to correct for what you are doing to it. The PCM logic is crazy and you need to change all the logics in the PCM in order to make things happy.

Yes, the MAF can be completely reworked with the AP software.