l/a intercoolers, torque, and random nonsense.... hosted by DCR

[boosted3]

we still dont know why these motor blow.that should be the first thing dcr finds out.Not trying to add more power to the car so more people can blow.But the manifold does look bad ass i give them that ...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by boosted3 we still dont know why these motor blow.that should be the first thing dcr finds out.Not trying to add more power to the car so more people can blow.But the manifold does look bad ass i give them that ...

Just curious... But why should dcr be trying to figure out why these motors blow? They already think they know why these motors blow. You just don't want to believe it.

I'll tell you what the fix is. Ready?

Buy a dcr motor, all dcr parts, make 600whp, and then quit worrying about why your untuned stock motor blew one time.
Were going to be working on that while you keep worrying about why you modded your direct injected motor, then didn't bother to tune it, and it blew.

Deal?

[davesxx01]

Randy, I want to beleive!

What's the reason, really!

[bf360]

Originally Posted by davesxx01 Randy, I want to beleive! What's the reason, really!

from what ive gathered its the part throttle tuning that needs to be addressed, when randy says tuned he doesnt mean a nice a/f curve and no knock under wot, he means that part throttle needs to be tuned safer then it is from the factory, seems easiest by adding some fuel to get rid of any knock and so if you boost a few pounds your ecu doesnt stay at 15.1

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by bf360 from what ive gathered its the part throttle tuning that needs to be addressed, when randy says tuned he doesnt mean a nice a/f curve and no knock under wot, he means that part throttle needs to be tuned safer then it is from the factory, seems easiest by adding some fuel to get rid of any knock and so if you boost a few pounds your ecu doesnt stay at 15.1

thanks. boosted3 as usual was being a dork. weve been down this road before.

many new cars(not just ms3/6s) are tuned with economy/ emissions first and foremost. our cars are tuned right to the edge of power, economy, and emissions... STOCK, direct from the factory.
add in a first generation direct injection fuel system,
and the result?
we cant mod for 60-70whp over stock, and continue to completely friggin ignore partial throttle tuning. the partial throttle tuning is the tuning they made the most aggressive... cause thats where the economy is.

so... it goes like this 100% of the time..

buy brand new 260hp, 30 mpg, low emissions disi
mod
ignore all important partial throttle tuning
blow partial throttle
and wonder why our motor is flawed

from what darrell and i have discussed.... our motors are built strong because mazda KNEW this was the philosophy. they KNEW they tuned the limit on these things. but thats also why they have so much potential on the blocks we see. so mazda built them strong... they didnt want alot of stock cars blowing because of this philosophy. they could care less about the modded cars that blow.

once we all start richening up the mixtures down low i think we'll see a hell of alot more life and power out of these motors. we'll still see alot blow, becuase guys still will ignore it or fuck it up. but there will be alot more whooshs and lalooshs before its all said and done too.

now back on topic.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Deadman I wish i could swing this right now.... but then i would need big turbo, built motor, etc.... sigh fml Love what DCR and Randy are doing. Thanks guys

Just throwing this out there, and it might not be coming from the best perspective (5500 ft, which kinda of shields us from the power problems at sea level), but... I'm still not 100% convinced that a built motor is even necessary for the power levels we're reaching.

People have blown, i admit it. ms3's & ms6's and a shit load of hoochies all over the country are blowing left and right, but they're all blowing at part throttle or in a back seat. FEW people have blown at WOT or in the front seat... So i'm yet to be convinced into building my motor thus far.

I'd feel stupid building a motor to protect me at part throttle... seriously, wtf.

As it stands now, i'm with pale butt randy in believing our problems lie in aggressive factory tunes trying to maximize gas milage & power while minimizing emissions & targeting stoich. When i blow my motor at wot, i'll stand corrected, but until then, i'll stand tall on my stock internals.

[djuosnteisn]

Randy beat me to it, hahahaha. thanks.

[bf360]

yup thats why one of the first things i did when tuning njspeeds car with atr was richen up the p-t,he went from at p-t and 5-10 lbs of boost being high 14's to even consistently 15.0 to after being always low 14's p-t and higher 13's the more boost he built

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I'd feel stupid building a motor to protect me at part throttle... seriously, wtf.

exactly...lol

build the motor to max out at 400whp and not blow partial throttle.
just how fucked up is our thinking again?!?

we need to.. change the factory tuning when we mod!!!! how is that so hard to understand?
port inject WOT and dump fuel in at partial thorttle on this hooch.
THEN lets talk about how weak the motor is.

[boosted3]

Originally Posted by palerider Just curious... But why should dcr be trying to figure out why these motors blow? They already think they know why these motors blow. You just don't want to believe it. I'll tell you what the fix is. Ready? Buy a dcr motor, all dcr parts, make 600whp, and then quit worrying about why your untuned stock motor blew one time. Were going to be working on that while you keep worrying about why you modded your direct injected motor, then didn't bother to tune it, and it blew. Deal?

im actually done with this car just staying aorund to watch what happens car is being parte dout and sold.Good luck with everything guys

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider exactly...lol build the motor to max out at 400whp and not blow partial throttle. just how fucked up is our thinking again?!? we need to.. change the factory tuning when we mod!!!! how is that so hard to understand? port inject WOT and dump fuel in at partial thorttle on this hooch. THEN lets talk about how weak the motor is.

I'm putting together a complete write-up of my blown motor analysis. It's a few factors that are at play but just to give you an idea ... no EVO or SRT4 motor makes as much torque as we do at such low RPM. Period.

The way this Mazda is calibrated is more like a truck than a performance car. We don't need more than 300 ft lbs of torque to make well over 400whp but Mazda didn't want that for this motor.

Everyone has been looking at hp gains for this car and have completely ignored the torque and where it is at its maximum and that it doesn't carry into the RPM band.

Further torque is the one that is DIRECTLY proportional to cylinder pressure.

Case and point, look at the tq and hp on this 450whp evo


Now look at Darksun's dyno. Again look at the torque he made.

[JumpingJackson]

Yeah they also rev to 7500 rpm LOL

[phailerider]

lex... id be more intersted in that theory if id ever seen a stock mazda forged disi, blow WOT, on the dyno or at the track.
that isnt the culprit imo.
the "flaw" usually manifests inself after we hop up our cars and the ecu still trys to get 30mpg in city driving.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider lex... id be more intersted in that theory if id ever seen a stock mazda forged disi, blow WOT, on the dyno or at the track. that isnt the culprit imo. the "flaw" usually manifests inself after we hop up our cars and the ecu still trys to get 30mpg in city driving.

25% throttle in this car makes 20psi with some bolt ons at less than 3k RPM.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex 25% throttle in this car makes 20psi with some bolt ons at less than 3k RPM.

i see your point

[Lex]

Originally Posted by palerider i see your point

What I am getting at is that if the top end was uncorked, with a larger turbo, we'd see the kind of hp other platforms are making on stock hardware and blow less instead of the insta-torque we're used to.

[danielbogdan]

Originally Posted by palerider thanks. boosted3 as usual was being a dork. weve been down this road before. many new cars(not just ms3/6s) are tuned with economy/ emissions first and foremost. our cars are tuned right to the edge of power, economy, and emissions... STOCK, direct from the factory. add in a first generation direct injection fuel system, and the result? we cant mod for 60-70whp over stock, and continue to completely friggin ignore partial throttle tuning. the partial throttle tuning is the tuning they made the most aggressive... cause thats where the economy is. so... it goes like this 100% of the time.. buy brand new 260hp, 30 mpg, low emissions disi mod ignore all important partial throttle tuning blow partial throttle and wonder why our motor is flawed from what darrell and i have discussed.... our motors are built strong because mazda KNEW this was the philosophy. they KNEW they tuned the limit on these things. but thats also why they have so much potential on the blocks we see. so mazda built them strong... they didnt want alot of stock cars blowing because of this philosophy. they could care less about the modded cars that blow. once we all start richening up the mixtures down low i think we'll see a hell of alot more life and power out of these motors. we'll still see alot blow, becuase guys still will ignore it or fuck it up. but there will be alot more whooshs and lalooshs before its all said and done too. now back on topic.

I'm not sure I understand. As far as I know, all modern cars are tuned for a stoichiometric AFR everywhere except WOT and a cold engine.

Our engine is the same. So how does that make it any special?

From other threads I understood that the culprit might be too much advance at part throttle, in excess of 60 deg ( by the way, I have never seen more than 40, even after 2 hours of cruising at 80 mph). Then that's what should be cured, the advance, not the AFR, right?

The only reason I'm asking is that if we mess with AFR at part throttle, we'll never be able to pass emission tests again.

[demonspeed]

Originally Posted by danielbogdan I'm not sure I understand. As far as I know, all modern cars are tuned for a stoichiometric AFR everywhere except WOT and a cold engine. Our engine is the same. So how does that make it any special? From other threads I understood that the culprit might be too much advance at part throttle, in excess of 60 deg ( by the way, I have never seen more than 40, even after 2 hours of cruising at 80 mph). Then that's what should be cured, the advance, not the AFR, right? The only reason I'm asking is that if we mess with AFR at part throttle, we'll never be able to pass emission tests again.

Not many of those cars are boosted, which adds inconsistent amounts of air at varying densities, all at very low RPM, making huge torque right where you dont want this motor making torque.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by demonspeed Not many of those cars are boosted, which adds inconsistent amounts of air at varying densities, all at very low RPM, making huge torque right where you dont want this motor making torque.

exactly. and thts why we see 15's a/f when we start ramping boost on untuned modded disi's. we see 15's whether we are partial boosting, or even still in vacuum while its ramping. add in the wild advanced timing and the heat gets even worse.

there is virtually no room for error stock, and when we open it up... it rips right out of the "safe zone" too quick.... and ecu is constantly playing catchup, but from a place where its unsafe.

[boosted3]

Everyone trying to findout why we r blowing,no one has a solid proof yet and im ean no one.Partial throttle tunning and so on still not a answer.Its worthless to build this car the way it is right now.Simple as that..what we have liek 4 forged cars that r kinda running right.Thats a shame...

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by boosted3 Everyone trying to findout why we r blowing,no one has a solid proof yet and im ean no one.Partial throttle tunning and so on still not a answer.Its worthless to build this car the way it is right now.Simple as that..what we have liek 4 forged cars that r kinda running right.Thats a shame...

Because your the resident combustion engine expert LOL. Darrell knows his shit, period.

[boosted3]

ok im glad he does but hestill dont have a normal motor running right now without knocking or blowing up.Everyone else does.hes doing the same thing p3 is doing building a motor and making more go fast parts.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by boosted3 Everyone trying to findout why we r blowing,no one has a solid proof yet and im ean no one.Partial throttle tunning and so on still not a answer.Its worthless to build this car the way it is right now.Simple as that..what we have liek 4 forged cars that r kinda running right.Thats a shame...

There a quite a few forged motors running great. They might not be making the power we expect them to, but they are running fine.

Even if part throttle tuning is an issue, dropping the compression 1pt during the rebuild goes a long way towards fixing the PT knock the stock programming can sometimes cause..

[Lex]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller There a quite a few forged motors running great. They might not be making the power we expect them to, but they are running fine. Even if part throttle tuning is an issue, dropping the compression 1pt during the rebuild goes a long way towards fixing the PT knock the stock programming can sometimes cause..

They are not making the hp everyone wants because they don't carry the torque. This can be anything from tuning, to fuel delivery, to flow restrictions, to combustion chamber design. You have to do some serious redesign to have a motor carry 350 ft lbs to 7500 RPM when stock it doesn't see that past 4500RPM.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Originally Posted by Lex What I am getting at is that if the top end was uncorked, with a larger turbo, we'd see the kind of hp other platforms are making on stock hardware and blow less instead of the insta-torque we're used to.

So to paraphrase ...

Stock turbo too much torque down low and boom...but a big laggy turbo on so it doesn't spool until higher rpms and no boom.

[802MS3]

Lex, give us some more of your thoughts!

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer For the power I want to make, I don't think ANY of the intercoolers out there for the MS6 will flow enough. Are the cp-e or corksport really any better than the ETS in terms of flow? I'm pretty sure the only 'problem' with the ETS is heat soak, which goes away very quickly once you start moving. We need a kit that replaces the crash bar to let a front mount intercooler be taller and thicker. I'm thinking 4.5" thick and maybe 20" wide by 7" tall with side-to-side flow. I'd say that should be good for 600 awhp or so. Then maybe an 'extreme' intercooler for drag cars that's 10" tall.

Err... It had better structurally replaces the crash bar, including both stiffness and whatever crunch resistance it offers. New cars aren't tanks, they need all the structure they have. That bar needs to be extended out the corner of the car, and the FMIC needs something extending forward around it so it doesn't attempt to be a bumper itself.

[boosted3]

i agree on they know there shit.im not putting them down.Its just coasting to much money to make this car run fine without blowing thats all im saying.I am gona sell it and most likely go wiht a 2005 m3.I love the speed3 its just not ready to make hp reliably and thats what i need and want.

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by palerider exactly. and thts why we see 15's a/f when we start ramping boost on untuned modded disi's. we see 15's whether we are partial boosting, or even still in vacuum while its ramping. add in the wild advanced timing and the heat gets even worse. there is virtually no room for error stock, and when we open it up... it rips right out of the "safe zone" too quick.... and ecu is constantly playing catchup, but from a place where its unsafe.

OK. Do we have the ability to change the logic so that with *any* boost the ECU switches to safer AFRs? I don't mean pig rich at 2psi and 3000prm, just an *appropriate* AFR for 0 vac or any amount of boost. The emission cycle doesn't hit boost, and really normal driving uses very little hp so I don't see this fix belching out pollution.

15:1 is great for clean, lean, efficient driving in *vacuum*, but I don't think there's been a revolution in production auto engines that allows them to run stoich at WOT, never mind with boost. Yeah exotic race engines... but not grocery motors.

[madvillain]

so far, i couldn't agree more with lex. i'm no expert, and sure there are a shitton of variables but i think thats an excellent point to begin with.

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer For the power I want to make, I don't think ANY of the intercoolers out there for the MS6 will flow enough. Are the cp-e or corksport really any better than the ETS in terms of flow? I'm pretty sure the only 'problem' with the ETS is heat soak, which goes away very quickly once you start moving. We need a kit that replaces the crash bar to let a front mount intercooler be taller and thicker. I'm thinking 4.5" thick and maybe 20" wide by 7" tall with side-to-side flow. I'd say that should be good for 600 awhp or so. Then maybe an 'extreme' intercooler for drag cars that's 10" tall.

why would you compromise safety? seems silly to me. are those core sizes calculated, or are you pulling them out of your ass?

i got flamed when i mentioned it before, but big power people should consider air\water. it's good stuff, and you can do it without taking off things that are there to save your ass when you are driving like an ass. higher efficiency low pressure drop and less lag are some of the great benefits attributed to air\water. move the battery to the trunk and then you got lots of room and a nice short path to the TB. it's a no brainer to me, but i guess thats because i have no brain according to some people

these are nice pieces... top dollar, but you get what you pay for i guess.
PWR Performance Products

1.1 psi pressure drop! you can get their ice box, and run it normal for the street, but when you get to the track dump some ice in it to get to 100% efficiency or better! air\water is great for street, track, whenever.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by TurboGhost Err... It had better structurally replaces the crash bar, including both stiffness and whatever crunch resistance it offers. New cars aren't tanks, they need all the structure they have. That bar needs to be extended out the corner of the car, and the FMIC needs something extending forward around it so it doesn't attempt to be a bumper itself.

The crash bar is only there to limit damage in very low speed accidents. You might have more damage after an accident if you replace it, but I seriously doubt it will have any appreciable effect on the survivability of a very serious accident...

This piece of thick wall chrome moly tubing replacing my crash bar is far stronger than the original part and takes up much less space..

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by killa cam why would you compromise safety? seems silly to me. are those core sizes calculated, or are you pulling them out of your ass? i got flamed when i mentioned it before, but big power people should consider air\water. it's good stuff, and you can do it without taking off things that are there to save your ass when you are driving like an ass. higher efficiency low pressure drop and less lag are some of the great benefits attributed to air\water. move the battery to the trunk and then you got lots of room and a nice short path to the TB. it's a no brainer to me, but i guess thats because i have no brain according to some people these are nice pieces... top dollar, but you get what you pay for i guess. PWR Performance Products 1.1 psi pressure drop! you can get their ice box, and run it normal for the street, but when you get to the track dump some ice in it to get to 100% efficiency or better! air\water is great for street, track, whenever.

Those core sizes are roughly based on the various intercoolers I've had on my 300zx at different power levels. Not calculated, but not a complete stab in the dark. Some people might say it's overkill but I've always wanted my intercoolers to support at least 25% more power than I'm actually making.

As far as safety.. I said replace the crash bar, not remove the crash bar - as in use less of a stronger material or a better shape to get the same structural properties in less space.
Edit: exactly like what SS did^^

I've seen some promising data on L/A intercoolers but I'm still not convinced they perform well for long periods of time or after the car sits in the sun for a while and the water heats up.

[kilik2]

JMEng, I am sure the l/a intercoolers probably need some type of condenser or something to cool the liquid because the flow of water isn't going to bleed enough heat off if you are running it for a long time. I proposed a peltier/seether cooling pump or surface area but that was shot down rather quickly by some of the members. I haven't heard too many other ideas though other than ice or a tap off of ac system. Maybe if someone wants to put some research into efficient ways to transfer heat with detailed rates of heat transfer, flow rates, power consumption, hp gains, and possible bat's then we could make some real progress in that regard.

[JMEngineer]

I might do some experimenting with that stuff in a few years but for the short term I'm just going to do something very similar to SS.

One thing I've thought about is using solar energy to power a 'refrigeration' system for a secondary intercooler. On sunny summer days when your car runs the hottest, it would also get the most cooling.

[KayWhy]

Were talking about A/L intercoolers while many other cars out there are switching from that form to A/A with much better performance gains. Take a turboed 3800 for example - They used the A/L intercooler but once boost was turned up on the turbo applications it wasnt near as affective as a normal FM A/A

[kilik2]

yeah..prob with solar power is we haven't fully realized how to make photovoltaic cells more efficient. Hell we have a solar car here at auburn and we are always trying to reduce weight and electrical load to maximize distance traveled. If only the cells could harness more energy.

[glocK23]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer I might do some experimenting with that stuff in a few years but for the short term I'm just going to do something very similar to SS. One thing I've thought about is using solar energy to power a 'refrigeration' system for a secondary intercooler. On sunny summer days when your car runs the hottest, it would also get the most cooling.

why dont you just make it a prius while you're at it?

[kilik2]

Originally Posted by KayWhy Were talking about A/L intercoolers while many other cars out there are switching from that form to A/A with much better performance gains. Take a turboed 3800 for example - They used the A/L intercooler but once boost was turned up on the turbo applications it wasnt near as affective as a normal FM A/A

Well, the thermodynamics proves that a liquid, preferably water, in laminar flow (convection) will almost always transfer heat more efficiently and faster than radiation. Air is technically a fluid but its capabilities are actually less than that of a liquid ( by chemistry terms). All that means is they are not providing a fast enough coolant or they are engineering crap without actually crunching numbers before running it. Nuclear reactors use liquid cooling, not air cooling, for a reason, and those bitches get mighty hot. trust me.

[glocK23]

How can A/A be more efficient than A/L cooling? If not half assed, liquid cooling is more efficient at dissipating heat. Take for example engine coolant, PC watercooling, nuclear reactors as stated by klik.