Non projected tip Spark plugs

[troubled81]

So I was looking for a good plug to replace my really old plugs and i found these.

http://https://www.briskracing.com/b...rk-plug-detail

They are interesting so i ordered a set.

I don't care about the silver thing, but the non-projected tip helps with tuning at the edge. If anyone has tried them I would like to hear about it. They are not listed in the data base as an option so that is why i posted.

Also, I bought my car back, so you will be seeing more posts from me again.

[MSMS3]

Link is not working for me. If that plug does not have a fine wire iridium center electrode it would probably not be a good choice for direct injection high compression high boost turbo engines.

We need a tight gap and a very concentrated, intense spark to avoid spark blow out under high boost. Fine wire iridium can do this while resisting the intense heat. It gets longer service life compared to platinum tipped plugs in this intense environment.

Worth a try, but I'm not sure a large diameter center electrode silver or silver alloy plug would be a good choice on this engine, especially if you exceed stock boost levels.

[Thor Hammer]

Additionally, that company Brisk racing wants you to believe their plugs will make your car perform better. They wont. Its all a marketing gimmick. Its just a spark plug. Like MSM3 said there are tried and true plugs that work best on our platform. Just don't be a noob and go one step colder on stock motor with bolt ons.

[troubled81]

I will ignore the comment about being a noob from the guy that has labled himself a tool.

MSMS3 You bring some ineresting insight to plug direction with what could be a challange of direct injection. The droplet size is larger wich could make getting the combustion event started alot harder. If that is the case it leads me to think there is an issue with the coil energy. I have some LS coils kicking around from some other motor builds so I can try swapping them in.

I know when i was tuning the car 5 years ago (and I got it to run 12.9's on the stock turbo) I was fighting the amount of timing i could add before i would get knock compaired to other very high load motors I have tuned (both boosted and nitous motors). The main fix for this was switching to a non projected tip plug.

I agree the sight has the whole silver gimmick thing going and it seems super "E3 plug" gimmicky and that is NOT why i bought them. The chance there is a non-projected tip plug that will work in our cars is why i got them. When pushing the limits in past motor builds the non projected plug was what allowed it to work.

Worst case situation is they suck and I will report back as such and we all learned something. Best case I find out that i can run leaner and with more timing and for those that push limits we all get faster. I will keep you guys n the loop.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by troubled81 I will ignore the comment about being a noob from the guy that has labled himself a tool. MSMS3 You bring some ineresting insight to plug direction with what could be a challange of direct injection. The droplet size is larger wich could make getting the combustion event started alot harder. If that is the case it leads me to think there is an issue with the coil energy. I have some LS coils kicking around from some other motor builds so I can try swapping them in. I know when i was tuning the car 5 years ago (and I got it to run 12.9's on the stock turbo) I was fighting the amount of timing i could add before i would get knock compaired to other very high load motors I have tuned (both boosted and nitous motors). The main fix for this was switching to a non projected tip plug. I agree the sight has the whole silver gimmick thing going and it seems super "E3 plug" gimmicky and that is NOT why i bought them. The chance there is a non-projected tip plug that will work in our cars is why i got them. When pushing the limits in past motor builds the non projected plug was what allowed it to work. Worst case situation is they suck and I will report back as such and we all learned something. Best case I find out that i can run leaner and with more timing and for those that push limits we all get faster. I will keep you guys n the loop.

I don't understand your statement about "droplet size" The orifice of our injectors is very fine, the spray very well controlled and the pulse width quite narrow (short) because of the high rail pressure over 1600 psi. Atomization is very good. The chamber is pressurized at 15 psi above atmospheric or more. We need a hot and very short spark arc, thus the fine wire electrode and very small gap, of .026" or less to avoid boost induced spark blow out.

No expert in tuning, but you can really get aggressive with timing if you stay rich with AFR under load at high rpm approaching redline and take advantage of cylinder cooling from the extra fuel and not chase higher boost or lean AFRs. Even my modest tune sees 17-18 degrees of timing advance at redline under load and pretty much maxes out the K04 on pump gas at about 300/300.

[troubled81]

Atomization of fuel into air is very complicated process and if i told you that carburetors are actually the best at doing this you would think i was crazy.... but it is true. Also i really do not want to start a carb vs efi talk but basicly it goes like this.

If you read up on papers on the topic direct injection droplet size during combustion is hurt by two factors. First is the the fact that they are high flowing injectors due to a small window to work in. Second is that there is little to zero time before the fuel is ignited (depending on duty cycle).

This is very different to carbs and port injection were the fuel travels the intake, past the valve, hangs out in the cylinder during intake and compression and then is ignited. During this time the fuel is turning into vapour due to all the heat around it. Vapours burn way faster and easier then droplets and sadly our injectors do not make vapours...

The finer the fuel the less time it takes to burn and reach peak pressure. This means less overall timing is required and therefore the piston spends less time fighting to go up in the cylinder. So high timing is an indication of poor flame travel rates and slow combustion.

Extra fuel or richer mixtures cost horse power. That cooling affect lowers BMEP which is lost power. Richer mixtures also burn slower requiring more timing hurting power further.

I am starting to get a picture together in my head that we have weaker coils then would be ideal for the condition of the fuel during combustion. This has forced us to run hotter plugs then ideal to aid in ignition. These hotter plugs then force us to run richer to fight off detonation and add even more timing that costs us more power as the pistons fight to move up in the cylinder.

I am hoping that these plugs and some new coils are going to show for something alittle different and better then the standards we have seen so far.

I hope that cleared up what i meant by droplet size.

[Shwaykid]

Different plug option: Brisk Racing RR14YS


@TiGraySpeed6; thoughts? two years later

[troubled81]

This is great news, I did not see them in the data base so I did not search the history.

If there is no report back I promise to let you guys know how they worked for me.

On 94 octane and meth with a k04 I had wgdc of 100% and could only run 11.4:1 and 15deg of timing before I got KR... the ported head changed the motor alot so the k04 would only make 15-16psi of boost at redline.

if i can push it further I will let you know.

I wish I had E85 in Ontario.

[impossible]

These have been a good option in the Coyote platform but I've seen a few guys failed and went back to NGK Iridium. I've seen failure on both brands but NGK's been going for years and I'm sure their QC is better being a larger company with a big name in motorsports

[troubled81]

Well the new plugs are on my desk. They will go in tomorrow if it is not raining. More to follow.

[MSMS3]

Data is data. Data logs consistently show that better power is made at high rpm on the K04 on pump gas by using crazy timing and rich AFR while tapering boost at redline. The unburned fuel provides cylinder cooling that helps prevent detonation with aggressive timing. You get more power with what appears to be lower g/s mass air flow compared to trying to push boost and lean out AFR approaching redline.

This is not carb vs EFI, more particularly high pressure direct injection versus carb. Straw man argument.

It is the unique characteristics of this engine, its injector spray, its direct injection duty cycle, the cylinder and head design, the location of the spark in the combustion chamber, the piston surface design, the compression ratio, the amount of boost and the type of fuel.

We really need a fine wire tight gapped plug that can handle a lot of heat and last.

[troubled81]

Well I have run the cold non projected tip plugs and LS coils now at the track. They were gapped at .035” and with 11.3-11.4 afr to 7000rpm I had no knock with 15* timing on 94 octane gas and meth. I swapped new one heat range colder, projected tip plugs back in after the track day and the car is having ignition issues over 12psi.

Thought I should update this. The car trapped 113mph.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by troubled81 Well I have run the cold non projected tip plugs and LS coils now at the track. They were gapped at .035” and with 11.3-11.4 afr to 7000rpm I had no knock with 15* timing on 94 octane gas and meth. I swapped new one heat range colder, projected tip plugs back in after the track day and the car is having ignition issues over 12psi. Thought I should update this. The car trapped 113mph.

If you gapped the unidentified "projected tip" plugs at .035", then yes, they will cause ignition issues. You will get boost induced spark blow out unless you gap them down to .026 to .028". I'm seeing 18-19 degrees of timing at 18 psi under max load with those NGK Iridium plugs. AFR's are pig rich. This is on 93 octane pump gas. The NGK plugs are one step colder 6510's. I am not running meth. The cylinder cooling effect of meth, depending on how you are doing, it does totally change the need to run as rich as I am, but don't know how that would cause some radical change regarding ignition.

I have no idea how running LS coils might affect use of NGK Iridium plugs.

[troubled81]

That is my point,

With the non projected tip plugs and upgraded ignition we can make more power running leaner and not have ignition issues. I am now 11.6 and the car is happy and pulls hard. I forgot to write this but this was also at ~23psi in 4th gear at the top of the track with no "boost induced spark blow-out" and as noted a gap of .035".

I am spraying 1000ccm of meth. I was not done tuning but the day was done at the track. This is not maxed out yet.

Leaning out from 11.0 to 11.4 and reducing the timing to be safe the car picked up 5mph in the 1/4mile. rich is not fast...

I really suggest trying these plugs is all I am saying. I am not a master tuner and I am really happy with the results of one day at the track smashing the keyboard. Between the coils and plugs I never was limited in my tuning by spark blowout, miss fires etc.

[MSMS3]

If I sprayed meth, I could run leaner, too. The rich AFR is for cylinder cooling to prevent KR with aggressive timing advance. If meth (or ethanol like E35 blend) is used, then you can safely run leaner.

I still don't see the benefit of the plugs with wider gap. You may be avoiding spark blow out from the likely hotter spark from the GM coil packs rather than plug design or plug gap.

Seems like you are trying to justify the plug choice rather than giving credit to the other mods. What was the brand, type and gap of the projected tip plugs you were having ignition issues over 12 psi? Was it spark blow out, or something else?

I appreciate your taking the time to take us through this, just not convinced its the plug design or gap.

[troubled81]

Ngk. One heat range cooler.

I do believe that it is a combo of the coil mod and plugs. But the same plug gap on the projected tips broke down on the same tune as the non projected tips.

In nitrous sbc and LS motors the non-projected tip allows more aggressive tunes without knock or spark issues. I wish these were just standard copper plugs and not silver (OMG gimicky) because they would be so much cheaper, but I felt it was still worth a try becuase of the difference I have seen in other race motors.

To run these plugs you typically need high output coils. That is why i went throught the effort of scoping the stock mazda ecu to see it the LS truck coils would work. Then made a harness, mount and spark pluk wires for the coils but remeber the projected tips did not work even with these coils.

The combined system has proven to fire anything i throw at it and i am not a great master tuner.

To summarize they are working great for me and you guys do what you like. I have done enough testing to know what i will install when racing and shared it with you guys.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by troubled81 Ngk. One heat range cooler. I do believe that it is a combo of the coil mod and plugs. But the same plug gap on the projected tips broke down on the same tune as the non projected tips. In nitrous sbc and LS motors the non-projected tip allows more aggressive tunes without knock or spark issues. I wish these were just standard copper plugs and not silver (OMG gimicky) because they would be so much cheaper, but I felt it was still worth a try becuase of the difference I have seen in other race motors. To run these plugs you typically need high output coils. That is why i went throught the effort of scoping the stock mazda ecu to see it the LS truck coils would work. Then made a harness, mount and spark pluk wires for the coils but remeber the projected tips did not work even with these coils. The combined system has proven to fire anything i throw at it and i am not a great master tuner. To summarize they are working great for me and you guys do what you like. I have done enough testing to know what i will install when racing and shared it with you guys.

Thanks. Forgive me. I'm dense sometimes. What gap was breaking down on the one step colder NGKs? I can't seem to find that in your reports. The 6510 NGKs, one step colder, are intended for another application and come with a huge gap. Unless you close the gap to no more than .030" and preferably .026-028" you will get spark blow out at boost above 15 psi. But, closed down properly they fire very reliably on the stock coil packs.

[Fstrnyou]

I was running 22psi for a while and didn't get blow-out until my gaps got above 30. Using Denso plugs.

I do have a set of NGK 6510's on stand-by though.

I've been interested in LS coils but didn't have the means or smarts to check dwell and stuff.

[Solarsurge]

In my experience, the happy place is .024-.025" for 6510 gap

[Fstrnyou]

I've been running 26-27psi for a little while using my regular gap of 0.028". I haven’t checked the gaps lately, but this past week or two I've been getting misfires above 5500 or so. Runs smooth as butter below that. But these plugs have some miles on them. They were in my old engine for a while and I used them during break-in on the new engine which is approaching 4500 miles now.

I have heard good things about those silver plugs. Was going to order a set to try out...then didn't. Lol.

[MSMS3]

Yeah, the only negative about the fine wire iridium plugs seems to be relative short life in high boost applications. I'm only at 18-19 psi boost on a conservative tune on straight 93 octane pump gas, and I'm only getting about 15,000 miles on a set of plugs.

Maybe the open tip plugs are worth a shot, but for me with my modest mods, it would not be worth it unless they last substantially longer. I have no interest in the LS coil packs, though, as I'm not getting any misfires if the plugs are gapped properly.

[Fstrnyou]

They are gapped "properly" to work with stock coils.

But you are right. Leave well enough alone.

Proper gap is the largest gap possible that functions correctly. If high output coils allow a larger gap, that's called winning.