randy vs phil

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson It may not be compression surge but its not overboost either.. Atleast not overboost in the engine as the boost pressure is not inside of the compression chambers at that point. My point was having the line pop off of your blow off valve is not nearly as dangerous as having the line pop off your turbo that goes to your wastegate.

dude you are so friggin stupid. ive described what happens 10 times already. here i go again.

i overboosted because the hose on the boost source popped off the nipple. i hadnt ziptied it. its the line with the restrictor pill. my turbo immediately taps out at over 30psi. for like a FULL SECOND BEFORE I REALIZED IT. then i lay off throttle and my bov blows the fuck of the pipe. i dont know if the vacuum blew it off or the boost blew it off. but either way the ecu was of course completely awol.

the ecu, boost solenoid, cant read boost... how the fuck is it going to boost cut. it thinks theres zero vacuum when the hose comes off the boost source...

man back off of me. weve experinced shit with this car that you still only speculate about. you dont have the first clue what youre talking about. cut takes place for MULTIPLE reasons, but not for the reason you stated. mostly the cut comes because a load calculation has been exceeded for a specific period of time.

you need to do more reading, and listening before you fucking try to educate everybody and spread nonsense allover the board.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Im not a troll just because i think disabling the boost cut is dangerous and i post about it in order to get more information / clarification / correction. I WOULD Be a troll if I made an Off topic post in thread in such a way to specificaly get people riled up. My post was neither off topic OR intended to ellicit a negative response. ^-- GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD You were a troll when you attacked Cobb for no reason? No one even mentioned them or their product. No one was attacking CP-E or their product. I dont know why you continue to believe this.

go reread your posts. it pissed cpe off. your comments were highly inflammatory.

cpe, just as christian would... keep their mouths shut online. that doesnt mean theyre dumbasses and dont see EXACTLY what the hell picture youre trying to paint. ive spoken at length with jordan and with the exception of your crap, he felt the rest of the thread went nicely and was well received. i would agree.

[phillyb]

ugh
i will never buy parts from randy

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider dude you are so friggin stupid. ive described what happened 10 times. here i go again. i overboosted because the hose on the boost source popped off the nipple. i hadnt ziptied it. its the line with the restrictor pill. my turbo immediately taps out at over 30psi. for like a SECOND BEFORE I REALIZED IT. then i lay off throttle and my bov blows the fuck of the pipe. . man back off of me. weve experinced shit with this car that you still only speculate about. you dont have the first clue what youre talking about. cut takes place for MULTIPLE reasons, but not for the reason you stated. mostly the cut comes because a load calculation has been exceeded for over 1 second. you need to do more reading, and listening before you fucking try to educate everybody and spread nonsense allover the board.

Coming from the guy who has most of his parts installed by a mechanic.

And you need to learn how to debate/have a discussion without making personal attacks. Grow the fuck up.

And your wrong on so many levels, you really dont know what the fuck your talking about

A. First of all the ECU has what is called a "MAP sensor" It tells the ECU how much boost pressure is inside of the engine, its kind of a neat device really. The ECU knows its overboosting because the MAP sensor sends a 0-5V signal to the ECU telling it how much boost pressure is present.

Of course the boost control solenoid doesnt know how much boost there is, its just a valve controlled by the ECU, dont be silly.

Want to know why your engine didnt boost cut for you?
YOU HAD THE FUCKING MAP SENSOR CLAMPED WITH THE STANDBACK
Your Standback was lying to the ECU telling it was only running 13 psi or whatever you had the map clamp set to.
And you wonder why your engine popped.

Where as I was running a Cobb flashed ECU which was programmed to run higher boost levels and to boost cut if it goes over those levels.

[JumpingJackson]

See this guy right here? This is why your engine didnt boost cut. The standback comes from the factory with this set to 13 psi. Anything over 13 PSI gets reduced to 13 PSI so the ECU doesnt know if its overboosting.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by phillyb ugh i will never buy parts from randy

lol... why start now right?

[skeeter149]

uhhh philly bro i need details....

[phillyb]

skeet, it should all be here, i didn't delete anything

[JumpingJackson]

Oops please move my last post with the standback screenshot over here. i didnt see this before.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Coming from the guy who has most of his parts installed by a mechanic. And you need to learn how to debate/have a discussion without making personal attacks. Grow the fuck up. And your wrong on so many levels, you really dont know what the fuck your talking about A. First of all the ECU has what is called a "MAP sensor" It tells the ECU how much boost pressure is inside of the engine, its kind of a neat device really. The ECU knows its overboosting because the MAP sensor sends a 0-5V signal to the ECU telling it how much boost pressure is present. Of course the boost control solenoid doesnt know how much boost there is, its just a valve controlled by the ECU, dont be silly. Want to know why your engine didnt boost cut for you? YOU HAD THE FUCKING MAP SENSOR CLAMPED WITH THE STANDBACK Your Standback was lying to the ECU telling it was only running 13 psi or whatever you had the map clamp set to. And you wonder why your engine popped. Where as I was running a Cobb flashed ECU which was programmed to run higher boost levels and to boost cut if it goes over those levels.

your point is what? oh... my bad. i get it now.

all the cpe guys who are running aps shouldnt get the cpe cut flash cause its gonna fuck up their ap tunes..... lol. of course im running a standback. who the hell would get this flash and not run a standback?

my point is that the cuts that this flash eliminate have NOTHING to do with hoses popping off the boost source. that was YOUR example. and we havent worried about that shit in 2 years since weve been tuning with piggybacks. its all the OTHER cuts that are eliminated that were excited about. and those are virtually all simply load calc equations that are exceeded once a certain power level is acheived. and under a shitton of circumstances.

if you wanted to use your argument for "safety" on the example you chose... you should have been bitching about piggybacks... not this new flash.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson See this guy right here? This is why your engine didnt boost cut. The standback comes from the factory with this set to 13 psi. Anything over 13 PSI gets reduced to 13 PSI so the ECU doesnt know if its overboosting.

again... are you bitching about standbacks, or eliminating all OTHER cuts via a flash.

so your point is that ap guys shouldnt get this flash? is that your point in using the example you did?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider your point is what? oh... my bad. i get it now. all the cpe guys who are running aps shouldnt get the cpe cut flash cause its gonna fuck up their ap tunes..... lol. of course im running a standback. who the hell would get this flash and not run a standback? my point is that the cuts that this flash eliminate have NOTHING to do with hoses popping off the boost source. that was YOUR example. and we havent worried about that shit in 2 years since weve been tuning with piggybacks. its all the OTHER cuts that are eliminated that were excited about. and those are virtually all simply load calc equations that are exceeded once a certain power level is acheived. and under a shitton of circumstances. if you wanted to use your argument for "safety" on the example you chose... you should have been bitching about piggybacks... not this new flash.

FCF + wastegate line popping off = overboost, no boost cut. Highly probable you damage your engine if not blow it up.

FCF + Standback + wastegate line popping off = Overboost, no boost cut. Highly probable you damage your engine if not blow it up.

Stock ECU or Cobb Flashed + waste gate line popping off = Overboost, but the ECU detects this from the MAP sensor, shuts the throttle plate.

It makes no difference wether you have a standback or not. If you disable all boost cuts and you overboost for whatever reason your engine has NO way of mitigating it. I dont care what product your using. Disabling Boost cut is potentially dangerous and you know it.

My original point still stands and you have yet to prove me wrong.

[JumpingJackson]

In your case when you spiked to 30 PSI it was because you had your MAP clamped. That is a seperate issue than the FCF no-boost cut being dangerous argument.

[dadasracecar]

Umm from personal experience my fully bolted MS6 would cut below 30 deg F with the IAT pot set to 82 and the standback boost clip set to 8 psi at 5500 rpm in 3rd, 4800 and on in 4th, etc, etc. Map clamps don't eliminate fuel cut. Boost cut and fuel cut are the same thing in this car.

[JumpingJackson]

Im not debating the usefullness of removing or various causes of boost/fuel cut. Im saying removing them is potentially dangerous.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson FCF + wastegate line popping off = overboost, no boost cut. Highly probable you damage your engine if not blow it up. FCF + Standback + wastegate line popping off = Overboost, no boost cut. Highly probable you damage your engine if not blow it up. It makes no difference wether you have a standback or not. If you disable all boost cuts and you overboost for whatever reason your engine has NO way of mitigating it. I dont care what product your using. Disabling Boost cut is potentially dangerous and you know it. My original point still stands and you have yet to prove me wrong.

Robbie's car is boosting to 25psi now. His afrs are in the low 12s and knock is zero. How much higher can the stock turbo go than the 3071 at 25 psi? Don't bother bringing up the forged internals b/c Whoosh was boosting 23 psi on his GT35R setup.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Im not debating the usefullness of removing or various causes of boost/fuel cut. Im saying removing them is potentially dangerous.

If the fuel cut is so valuable, what explains the plethora of blown motors?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Robbie's car is boosting to 25psi now. His afrs are in the low 12s and knock is zero. How much higher can the stock turbo go than the 3071 at 25 psi? Don't bother bringing up the forged internals b/c Whoosh was boosting 23 psi on his GT35R setup.

Yes but his tune/turbo is designed for the higher boost pressure.

If your tune is for 18 PSI and your turbo overboosts than that its still breathing super hot air which is going to cause detonation and pushing alot more air into the engine that what it is tuned for causing it to run lean and detonate.

I think we all can agree overboosting can blow up engines.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar If the fuel cut is so valuable, what explains the plethora of blown motors?

Im saying it has its place, not that it is the savior of all blown engines.. You can blow your motor without overboosting.

[JumpingJackson]

BTW Im *extremely* pleased to have a meaningful debate without this degerating into a pissing match.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Cobb just copied the winter fuel cut fix that cp-e and I figured out over a year ago, last winter. They just scaled the IAT. They didn't eliminate other types of cut or figure out all of the causes. You don't care b/c your car is running w/o cutting. As you continue to mod, I suspect it will happen to you again. That's the frustrating part of the cut. It occurs differently with different mod combos in different cars. Whoosh only had it at the very end of his experience. I had fuel cut stock. It's seemingly random b/c there are multiple conditions that set it and they're not all intuitive or predictable. Yes, people will worry about the safety net being removed. They'll worry until they're in 4th at 5500 WOT and they get a cut in a turbo sports car when it's 40 deg outside. Cold weather is when turbo cars are supposed to be strongest not when you have to nanny your car around or it'll cut. My 335i flat rips now that it's cold. My fully bolted stock turbo MS6 would cut in 3rd-6th under 50 deg F. Fuel pressure was dead on. I did the IAT mod and that fixed it until it was sub 20. I was pissed as I should have been that I couldn't drive my turbo car in the cold. Robbie's built MS3 running yesterday when it was in the 40s was cutting like hell in the higher gears. He's built and big turbo with upgraded everything. AFRs were fine, fuel pressure was tits and he was cutting like mad. One flash later, he can boost whatever he wants and zero cut.

This is a joke, right?

[Deadman]

i think it was, it made me *snicker*

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Yes but his tune/turbo is designed for the higher boost pressure. If your tune is for 18 PSI and your turbo overboosts than that its still breathing super hot air which is going to cause detonation and pushing alot more air into the engine that what it is tuned for causing it to run lean and detonate. I think we all can agree overboosting can blow up engines.

Then why is every blown motor thread in the last 3 months like this:

"I was just cruising in 6th gear at 85 mph then it started sputtering when i gave it some gas then she popped."

or

"I was speeding up and when i shifted from 2nd to third the car jerked a little then it popped."

?

This thread makes me lawl.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Yes but his tune/turbo is designed for the higher boost pressure. If your tune is for 18 PSI and your turbo overboosts than that its still breathing super hot air which is going to cause detonation and pushing alot more air into the engine that what it is tuned for causing it to run lean and detonate. I think we all can agree overboosting can blow up engines.

We can but not on a stock turbo setup. The MAF is still metering the air. Robbie's 24+ psi is maxing his MAF but he's still in the low 12s for afr.

I honestly see absolutely zero merit in the fuel cut (lack of) strategy for the MS3 and MS6. It literally makes no sense and I believe does more harm than good on the motors and drivetrain parts.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar If the fuel cut is so valuable, what explains the plethora of blown motors?

The cars arent blowing up because of boost/fuel cut when they blow.. they are blowing up with the open/closed loop transition. Were the people who blew at max rpm and wot? No, they were not.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by Haltech The cars arent blowing up because of boost/fuel cut when they blow.. they are blowing up with the open/closed loop transition. Were the people who blew at max rpm and wot? No, they were not.

I blew at 18psi above 4500 rpm WOT in 3rd. It was 28 deg outside and the car was completely warmed up. Jvoss65 blew while accelerating onto a race track. I'm not positive that he was WOT but he was probably close.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar We can but not on a stock turbo setup. The MAF is still metering the air. Robbie's 24+ psi is maxing his MAF but he's still in the low 12s for afr. I honestly see absolutely zero merit in the fuel cut (lack of) strategy for the MS3 and MS6. It literally makes no sense and I believe does more harm than good on the motors and drivetrain parts.

change his map to a 3 bar if you want a true test on how much the MAP effects the way the car boost and when it cuts.

T off the factory hole in the intake. Plop the factory sensor on one side of the T, the other to the new 3 bar MAP. Remove the 3 wires going to the stock map ( dont confuse them with the BAT sensor built in ) and move them over to the new map. Report back your findings.

BTW, this is now coined, the Haltech mod...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Im not debating the usefullness of removing or various causes of boost/fuel cut. Im saying removing them is potentially dangerous.

so now, these mazda ecus are genius, and all other ecus, on EVERY other platform out there are "dangerous".

i wonder how many kpro users program in fuel/ boost cut? i wonder how many had to sign waivers if they didnt?

whoosh dumped the platform because of this shit. loosh dumped the platform because of this shit. many have cried a river... but you want it because well all be "unsafe" without it.

[JumpingJackson]

Once again there are multiple reasons why cars blowing up, im simply stating overboosting can be one of them. And that removing the ECU's ability to close the throttle plate in an overboost condition is a potentially dangerous setup.

Attack the argument, not the debater.

I never said they are genius im saying the boost cut has its place (overboost protection). Yes it has been proven to be a nuisance as well and get in the way. I dont argue this. just last winter i had CP-E's IAT fix on my car.

[Deadman]

actually ron did not dump it because of the cut sorry had to throw the truth in there

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson BTW Im *extremely* pleased to have a meaningful debate without this degerating into a pissing match.

id hardly call this meaningful.

[JumpingJackson]

I was just debating with Jason here. I'd call that meaningful.. Why dont you join in on this debate and argue your position without making personal attacks / generally being a stick in the mud. Prove me wrong with your superior debating skills and the facts.

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by Deadman actually ron did not dump it because of the cut sorry had to throw the truth in there

Please elaborate.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider so now, these mazda ecus are genius, and all other ecus, on EVERY other platform out there are "dangerous". i wonder how many kpro users program in fuel/ boost cut? i wonder how many had to sign waivers if they didnt? whoosh dumped the platform because of this shit. loosh dumped the platform because of this shit. many have cried a river... but you want it because well all be "unsafe" without it.

People always dump platforms. Theres persons out there who want instant results. You wont get it with this car and we figured that out over a year ago. Only the dedicated who actually enjoy the car plan on sticking with it and figuring it out. This is why this forum exits. So what if a person leaves, they will come back and check progress. Its not like this forum actually sucks. Infact, many forum owners should take a look at this place and model it with permission

All joking aside, Like discussed earlier, fuel cut is very bad for any car running boost or nitrous. You dont want it. But, we have a bigger problem... the open/closed loop transition and the car going lean for that split second it is happening. That is what CPe needs to investigate.

it would be nice to not have personal attacks and shit slingin sessions. It halts further investigations and understandings.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman actually ron did not dump it because of the cut sorry had to throw the truth in there

im more confident in what i know, than what you think you know. and it wasnt because of cut directly... it was because of load calculations being exceeded in general. causing among other things, and most notably.... cut. he didnt feel like there was going to be any solution coming soon. he may also of tired of it.

i know this. if he hadnt cut that day on the dyno.. and hed made his 400whp. there was a strong likelihood that his motor was going to get built. he went from making 400whp, and then building his motor at the forefront of the community to looking at calibers in 24 hours.

i also believe he probably dumped it because i own a disi as well although i dont want to take all that credit myself...lol

[Deadman]

not my place to elaborate on this subject, just stating however that was not the reason (Not the main reason anyways..)


Ron can step in if he wants and lay this all out for you guys


and no pale again that is not the reason... it had nothing to do with the "cut"

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech People always dump platforms. Theres persons out there who want instant results. You wont get it with this car and we figured that out over a year ago. Only the dedicated who actually enjoy the car plan on sticking with it and figuring it out. This is why this forum exits. So what if a person leaves, they will come back and check progress. Its not like this forum actually sucks. Infact, many forum owners should take a look at this place and model it with permission All joking aside, Like discussed earlier, fuel cut is very bad for any car running boost or nitrous. You dont want it. But, we have a bigger problem... the open/closed loop transition and the car going lean for that split second it is happening. That is what CPe needs to investigate. it would be nice to not have personal attacks and shit slingin sessions. It halts further investigations and understandings.

well if jackson here agreed with you this shit slinging session never would have started in the first place.

you say "cpe needs to investigate". does that mean cobb is stuck? i thought this was a relatively easy fix?

[JumpingJackson]

Once again your advoiding my argument instead of addressing it.

Do you deny that removing the boost cut is potentially dangerous or not?

If so why?

I have said atleast 5 times that removing the boost/fuel cut is useful in attaining the maximum amount of power from our cars. Stop pretending like i havent.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman not my place to elaborate on this subject, just stating however that was not the reason (Not the main reason anyways..) Ron can step in if he wants and lay this all out for you guys and no pale again that is not the reason... it had nothing to do with the "cut"

well i know what his reasons were in the 24 hours after he got off the dyno and started immediately discussing his intentions. at least the ones he told loosh, cpe, his wife(she shared with the board), dada, etc, etc....

i dont know what he told you later, but there were an awful lot of guys right there with him when he was so upset and venting that day and the day after.

maybe there was another hidden agenda that none of us knew about. it wouldnt surprise me with him.

but really im sure after the decision was made he privately would have found many reasons "for leaving". i just know what precipitated the caliber thread he posted.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Once again your advoiding my argument instead of addressing it. Do you deny that removing the boost cut is potentially dangerous or not? If so why? I have said atleast 5 times that removing the boost/fuel cut is useful in attaining the maximum amount of power from our cars. Stop pretending like i havent.

are you addressing this to me? or everybody else in the thread who disagrees with you?

my official stance is this.....

those under warranty, who are completely stock should not remove the boost cut.
anybody else should get rid of this mazda ecu bullshit that doesnt exist on any other tuner car in the world.

i can only imagine my dodge and honda buddies the next time we get together as i tell them im lucky my car boost cuts and isnt dangerous like theirs.
btw... do ap subbies boost cut in the cold? when do ap subbies boost cut? this is a serious question. im not familiar with them like i am hondas and dodges.