randy vs phil

[2nr]

one quick question... if boost cut does such a great job, then how is it that Mark's WG line popped off and his 35R started to do it's thing until the motor popped.... but yet this cut didn't do it's job and save his motor... did it?

[bova]

yeah i'm all for removing that shitty fuel cut. i was next to a speed3 one day, didn't realize it at first cause it was dark, then he took off and i saw the badge so i went to catch up to him and my car was cutting like crazy. lets just say i laid off because i didn't want to make a fool out of myself with my car jerking.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider are you addressing this to me? or everybody else in the thread who disagrees with you? my official stance is this..... those under warranty, who are completely stock should not remove the boost cut. anybody else should get rid of this mazda ecu bullshit that doesnt exist on any other tuner car in the world. i can only imagine my dodge and honda buddies the next time we get together as i tell them im lucky my car boost cuts and isnt dangerous like theirs.

You still didnt answer the question. Im not debating whether anyone should or should not remove the boost cut. Im debating if its potentially dangerous.
And no one has disagreed with me that it is potentially dangerous.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by 2nr one quick question... if boost cut does such a great job, then how is it that Mark's WG line popped off and his 35R started to do it's thing until the motor popped.... but yet this cut didn't do it's job and save his motor... did it?

If im not mistaken he had a CP-E Standback with the boost clip right?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by bova80 yeah i'm all for removing that shitty fuel cut. i was next to a speed3 one day, didn't realize it at first cause it was dark, then he took off and i saw the badge so i went to catch up to him and my car was cutting like crazy. lets just say i laid off because i didn't want to make a fool out of myself with my car jerking.

As you know Christian has fixed this in the latest AP maps by adjusting the triggers for the fuel cut instead of removing them completely

[2nr]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson If im not mistaken he had a CP-E Standback with the boost clip right?

but here's the thing... that clip only does so much. the ecu utilizes other parameters to tell how much air is actually flowing into the motor

[JumpingJackson]

Also Randy, If removing the boost cut is so safe, why dont you drive around with your wastegate boost tube disconnected. But i dont think you would do that now would you?

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson You still didnt answer the question. Im not debating whether anyone should or should not remove the boost cut. Im debating if its potentially dangerous. And no one has disagreed with me that it is potentially dangerous.

It's really hard to argue your point... "potentially dangerous" could mean anything. I understand what you mean and for the most part agree that a properly orchestrated fuel cut has merit. Randy is arguing that the fuel cut in the Mazda ecu has no merit because it isn't properly set up.

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson If im not mistaken he had a CP-E Standback with the boost clip right?

My car would still cut with the boost clip set to 8 psi.

[2nr]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson why dont you drive around with your wastegate boost tube disconnected.

lol at the thought of that

[JumpingJackson]

From my personal experience this summer on my cobb flashed car my ECU, did boost cut when i overboosted. I cannot speculate on the ability of the ECU to detect overboost conditions through other means other than the MAP sensor.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson You still didnt answer the question. Im not debating whether anyone should or should not remove the boost cut. Im debating if its potentially dangerous. And no one has disagreed with me that it is potentially dangerous.

is this a serious question?

modding period is "potentially" dangerous. flashing a stage 1 ap tune on your car is potentially dangerous. i could name 1000 things that are potentially dangerous. but this discxussion is about modding for power. the first thing youd want to do is eliminate anything that could restrain it. theres a reason everybodys so excited about this flash... its because its fixing the most imortant holdup this community has had for big power.

it is potentially dangerous. so is a cobb sri. so is eliminating the boost restriction in 1-2. should i go on?

thats why ive stated if you want to stay under warranty, with a stock car. then keep it there. your warranty will be intact, and a safe 240whp/250trq will be what to expect. and then if your car blows with cruise control on the highway, you'll get a brand new engine from mazda all under warranty!!!!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson As you know Christian has fixed this in the latest AP maps by adjusting the triggers for the fuel cut instead of removing them completely

i'll bet 1000 dollars right now that christian cant remove it completely.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar It's really hard to argue your point... "potentially dangerous" could mean anything. I understand what you mean and for the most part agree that a properly orchestrated fuel cut has merit. Randy is arguing that the fuel cut in the Mazda ecu has no merit because it isn't properly set up. My car would still cut with the boost clip set to 8 psi.

And my answer to that would that it could be "better" to adjust the triggers for the boost cut instead of completely removing it all together. Make it so the fuel cut IS properly setup and so it DOES have merit.

Disabling is a good first step in understanding how our ECU's work. But i feel it would be better to adjust it rather than remove it altogether.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider well if jackson here agreed with you this shit slinging session never would have started in the first place. you say "cpe needs to investigate". does that mean cobb is stuck? i thought this was a relatively easy fix?

Cobb isnt trying to reprogram the ECU. Cobb is making software to tune these cars. Theres more to the equation then fuel cut... Your MAP and O/C transition is where our problems lie.

[phillyb]

lean at open/closed transition?
can someone elaborate on this?
does the transition always happen at the same rpm?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider i'll bet 1000 dollars right now that christian cant remove it completely.

And I'll bet if you datalogged that fuel cut when and if it happens he would be able to tune it out and still have the saftey margin provided by a properly setup boost cut.
Thats the whole point of the boost cut is that it DOES happen when something triggers it to go off.

The Key is understanding WHAT triggers it and to adjust it so it doesnt go off unless something is wrong. In stock form unmodified the fuel cut IS a huge issue with the car trying to make power and something definately needs to be done with it. I think that is what we both can agree on.

[2nr]

anybody know if there was a waiver for the ATP BCD?

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson From my personal experience this summer on my cobb flashed car my ECU, did boost cut when i overboosted. I cannot speculate on the ability of the ECU to detect overboost conditions through other means other than the MAP sensor.

I believe fuel cut and boost cut are two different terms that mean exactly the same thing. From my experience, the MAP has very little influence on the fuel cut once clamped below the stock level.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by 2nr one quick question... if boost cut does such a great job, then how is it that Mark's WG line popped off and his 35R started to do it's thing until the motor popped.... but yet this cut didn't do it's job and save his motor... did it?

hahaha i was waiting to become an example.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider i'll bet 1000 dollars right now that christian cant remove it completely.

Randy, sometimes i dont understand your thought process or why you would even throw that out there man. If Christian wanted it gone, it could be removed. Every thread seems to be turned into you bringing up Cpe vs Cobb.

[2nr]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark hahaha i was waiting to become an example.

lol, sorry bud..

[phillyb]

Originally Posted by Haltech Randy, sometimes i dont understand your thought process or why you would even throw that out there man. If Christian wanted it gone, it could be removed. Every thread seems to be turned into you bringing up Cpe vs Cobb.

phil eluded to the *fact* that cobb could do this. randy is saying that cobb can't

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson And I'll bet if you datalogged that fuel cut when and if it happens he would be able to tune it out and still have the saftey margin provided by a properly setup boost cut. Thats the whole point of the boost cut is that it DOES happen when something triggers it to go off. The Key is understanding WHAT triggers it and to adjust it so it doesnt go off unless something is wrong. In stock form unmodified the fuel cut IS a huge issue with the car trying to make power and something definately needs to be done with it. I think that is what we both can agree on.

the only thing that triggers it is when a load calculation is exceeded. or a map sensor that can see is exceeded.

why the fuck would i want either of those on my car. if i reached them id want them set back further....lol

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by 2nr anybody know if there was a waiver for the ATP BCD?

Probably not, but they are selling them not me. I'm sure they atleast have some sort of warning in their documentation of the risks of lying to your cars ECU about how much boost pressure its running.

I also wonder how many cars (mazda or otherwise) have blown up due to people overboosting with their MAP clamped? That would be an interesting statistic i think.

[2nr]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson I also wonder how many cars (mazda or otherwise) have blown up due to people overboosting with their MAP clamped? That would be an interesting statistic i think.

that probably happens every day... and then those people get on the forums get told they are dumb for cranking the boost up that high and they don't try to sue

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson And I'll bet if you datalogged that fuel cut when and if it happens he would be able to tune it out and still have the saftey margin provided by a properly setup boost cut. Thats the whole point of the boost cut is that it DOES happen when something triggers it to go off. The Key is understanding WHAT triggers it and to adjust it so it doesnt go off unless something is wrong. In stock form unmodified the fuel cut IS a huge issue with the car trying to make power and something definately needs to be done with it. I think that is what we both can agree on.

FC FTL.png

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Randy, sometimes i dont understand your thought process or why you would even throw that out there man. If Christian wanted it gone, it could be removed. Every thread seems to be turned into you bringing up Cpe vs Cobb.

thats simply not true. i havent been involved in a cpe/cobb throwdown in months. find another example.
this guy mocked the way cpe is reprogramming our ecu and im contesting it.... simple as that.

as far as christian wanting it gone. i dont believe cobb tunes the way cpe does, and i dont believe that he can "completely eliminate it". cpe did with a simple flash. good on all cars.

if christian can do it... then i want a full throttle map/ no cut map on my ap tomorrow. if it works i'll give 1000 bucks to him, the site, whoever. if it doesnt.... i want 1 g in my paypal account tomorrow from jackson. he keeps saying this shit over and over... let him put his money where his mouth is.

worst case i spend a g to save a trip to cpe this week.

[Deadman]

maybe christian can remove the cut completely! We do know bova never cuts it was virtually night and day. He went from cut to none at all? Maybe he is lucky who knows. I will let you know if it works out the same for me as i will be fully bolted minus bt!

[JumpingJackson]

My general feeling is that at there are dumb people out there that dont know what they are doing or all of the ramifications of what they doing.
People who think Oooh! lets turn up the boost on my vehicle while lying to the cars ECU about the boost without taking the proper precautions. I dont want to be held responsible for when someone takes something i sell and blows their car up with it because they dont know what they are doing. THAT is why i said i would want them to sign a disclaimer *IF* i was going to be selling a tuning device. in the right hands it can be very useful, in the wrong hands they can blow up an engine.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman maybe christian can remove the cut completely! We do know bova never cuts it was virtually night and day. He went from cut to none at all? Maybe he is lucky who knows. I will let you know if it works out the same for me as i will be fully bolted minus bt!

he said when he first was flashed he still cut and then it went away. id assume after the ecu learned the new "limit". cpe doesnt use "limit"..... its a COMPLETELY different mechanism. its gone COMPLETELY.

this should be pretty clear right now.

my point stands. i want a map from christian that will alllow me to boost 24 psi, with a maf pegged at 5.0. then i'll believe.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider thats simply not true. i havent been involved in a cpe/cobb throwdown in months. find another example. this guy mocked the way cpe is reprogramming our ecu and im contesting it.... simple as that. as far as christian wanting it gone. i dont believe cobb tunes the way cpe does, and i dont believe that he can "completely eliminate it". cpe did with a simple flash. good on all cars. if christian can do it... then i want a full throttle map/ no cut map on my ap tomorrow. if it works i'll give 1000 bucks to him, the site, whoever. if it doesnt.... i want 1 g in my paypal account tomorrow from jackson. he keeps saying this shit over and over... let him put his money where his mouth is. worst case i spend a g to save a trip to cpe this week.

First off why are you so hardwired into thinking this always has to be about cobb vs cpe. Its not.


Maybe Christian doesnt want to be held liable if someone does damage their engine?
But he already said he would send such a map to Whoosh.

The only thing i am arguing with you is that it is potentially dangerous to remove the boost cut and to lie to the ECU about how much boost its running. It has nothing to do with CP-E or Cobb.

[Speedn3]

Originally Posted by bova80 yeah i'm all for removing that shitty fuel cut. i was next to a speed3 one day, didn't realize it at first cause it was dark, then he took off and i saw the badge so i went to catch up to him and my car was cutting like crazy. lets just say i laid off because i didn't want to make a fool out of myself with my car jerking.

I thought Christain got rid of the cut for you...or did this happen before he raised the cut limit?

[Deadman]

no randy thats what anthony (superskaterxes) said. He has the cold weather fix more or less... I guess Christian spoke to ron directly and said he could take care of any cut he was having.


and yes neither bova nor superskaterxes cut!

[bova]

Originally Posted by palerider he said when he first was flashed he still cut and then it went away. id assume after the ecu learned the new "limit". cpe doesnt use "limit"..... its a COMPLETELY different mechanism. its gone COMPLETELY. this should be pretty clear right now. my point stands. i want a map from christian that will alllow me to boost 24 psi, with a maf pegged at 5.0. then i'll believe.

um no i didn't say that. when i first flashed it with the new map it never cut ever! so it was fixed from the start, it wasn't anything learned. don't know where you get your info.

[Speedn3]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson As you know Christian has fixed this in the latest AP maps by adjusting the triggers for the fuel cut instead of removing them completely

For the MS3? If so, can you direct me to the logs?

[bova]

and also if he can raise the limit and what not, why do you think he can't remove it? kevin already said he can and that they can also stop certain cel's from happening like for O2 sensors and what not.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson First off why are you so hardwired into thinking this always has to be about cobb vs cpe. Its not. Maybe Christian doesnt want to be held liable if someone does damage their engine? But he already said he would send such a map to Whoosh. The only thing i am arguing with you is that it is potentially dangerous to remove the boost cut and to lie to the ECU about how much boost its running. It has nothing to do with CP-E or Cobb.

because haltech said it nut. i made an offhanded joke about "shitty ap tunes" in a cpe thread AFTER you mocked them.... and here we are.

lol to the christian liability. you love that liability argument dont you? sticking to it like shit on a shoe.

i said it is potentially dangerous. absolutely. almost as dangerous as allowing full boost, in 1st and 2nd gear, for a rookie driver.

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by palerider because haltech said it nut. i made an offhanded joke about "shitty ap tunes" in a cpe thread AFTER you mocked them.... and here we are. lol to the christian liability. you love that liability argument dont you? sticking to it like shit on a shoe. i said it is potentially dangerous. absolutely. almost as dangerous as allowing full boost, in 1st and 2nd gear, for a rookie driver.

First of all I didnt mock them. Could you please point out where i did this?

Well disclaimers and liability are intimately connected arent they? Its really hard to talk about one without the other.

[Deadman]

i actually don't hate Randy as much as i did 2 hours ago.. But can you answer this question?


BOVA: and also if he can raise the limit and what not, why do you think he can't remove it? kevin already said he can and that they can also stop certain cel's from happening like for O2 sensors and what not. =D


i was going to ask the same but young bova stepped up

[bova]

Originally Posted by Speed'n3 For the MS3? If so, can you direct me to the logs?

so far just the federal model ms6 maps are done, he was in the process of converting all of them before christmas.