State Ref Advise

[projectspeed3]

Hey everyone,

I know this has been a topic that for the most part, has been beaten to death but it seems like the laws are grey and often changing.

Last night I was pulled over for a loud exhaust, and no he didn't use a decibel meter to my knowledge. He then asked me to pop my hood and he began taking photos of all modifications on the vehicle and wrote me for

- VC 27150(a) mod exhaust loud (correctable)

- VC 27156(b) mod/missing emissions. (non-correctable)

Mods include: SRI/TIP, FMIC, CBE + DP, and AP

Because the laws seem to have changed over the last few years, the steps to clear this up seem a little blurred. As this is my daily driven car, it'd be a huge hassle (despite being my fault) to have it out of comission for the shop to re-install the stock parts (which I have). If I DO have to go to the referee station, what am I allowed to keep on? do I need to prove a fix for the exhaust loudness? Do I even need to go to court?

I live in CA

Whats the process on this and how should I go about it?

Thanks in advance

[kTaLgsTo]

Move out of that communist state. You'll never win....
I'm selling my friends car for him in Idaho because mods and because he lives in CA (communist america)

[projectspeed3]

Originally Posted by kTaLgsTo Move out of that communist state. You'll never win.... I'm selling my friends car for him in Idaho because mods and because he lives in CA (communist america)

Fair lol, unfortunately that's not much of an option. Just want to know the bare minimum I can do/spend to take care of this lol.

[kTaLgsTo]

Are any of your mods CARB approved?
Having the carb sticker will ward cops off most of the time.
Get in good with an emissions guy and get him to pass you, cops can't argue against a passed emissions test...
Do a better job at hiding mods, or quiet down your car a touch

[projectspeed3]

Originally Posted by kTaLgsTo Are any of your mods CARB approved? Having the carb sticker will ward cops off most of the time. Get in good with an emissions guy and get him to pass you, cops can't argue against a passed emissions test... Do a better job at hiding mods, or quiet down your car a touch

emissions guy as in state ref or just a smog check person? weirdly enough my car isnt THAT loud especially compared to some of the ricers around here. Cops didnt seem to care so I played the dumb card.

Originally Posted by SaveMelMac You’re probably going to be sent to the ref. Get ready to stock that thing out in order to pass. You are probably running cleaner if you have a custom tune but Cali smog nazis don’t care. I have heard of people claiming to the ref that their car broke down and is undrivable and just paying a fine, but I can’t say for sure. Good luck

I keep reading that FMIC, SRI, and CBE do NOT affect emissions in a vehicle therefore maybe I can get away with just doing the DP and AP uninstall and get it checked?

Maybe its worth just driving by the Referee and talking to them about it? Regardless, I guess I have to appear in court with or without corrections.

[SaveMelMac]

You’re probably going to be sent to the ref. Get ready to stock that thing out in order to pass. You are probably running cleaner if you have a custom tune but Cali smog nazis don’t care. I have heard of people claiming to the ref that their car broke down and is undrivable and just paying a fine, but I can’t say for sure. Good luck

[SaveMelMac]

Technically your right it has nothing to do with emissions the ref is not going to let it pass. Have you gotten the ticket in the mail yet with all the fine info? It should tell you what you need to do.
You can request a trial by mail, and hope the officer does not respond and you can get the ticket thrown out.

[projectspeed3]

Originally Posted by SaveMelMac Technically your right it has nothing to do with emissions the ref is not going to let it pass. Have you gotten the ticket in the mail yet with all the fine info? It should tell you what you need to do. You can request a trial by mail, and hope the officer does not respond and you can get the ticket thrown out.

no this literally JUST happened last night. Though I do need to take care of it as soon as possible.

so EVEN THOUGH its technically not messing with emissions, the ONLY mods that can remain are CARB certified ones, correct?

Thanks!!

[SaveMelMac]

Originally Posted by projectspeed3 no this literally JUST happened last night. Though I do need to take care of it as soon as possible. so EVEN THOUGH its technically not messing with emissions, the ONLY mods that can remain are CARB certified ones, correct? Thanks!!

Yes must have a EO number.

[Solarsurge]

I don't see how the cop can write a ticket for noise without a dB meter. There is a clear cut standard for noise pollution -- 95 dB. That also takes his "probable cause" for the stop and throws it out the window. That's profiling. Plain and simple.

[SaveMelMac]

Originally Posted by Solarsurge I don't see how the cop can write a ticket for noise without a dB meter. There is a clear cut standard for noise pollution -- 95 dB. That also takes his "probable cause" for the stop and throws it out the window. That's profiling. Plain and simple.

They don’t need a db meter all he has to do is say I heard the guy coming from 3 blocks away. There’s his probable cause. It would be no different from a cop writing you a ticket for having a headlight out. He is using one of his senses to see the light isn’t working. He doesn’t have to carry around some device to measure light to show it isn’t working.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by SaveMelMac They don’t need a db meter all he has to do is say I heard the guy coming from 3 blocks away. There’s his probable cause. It would be no different from a cop writing you a ticket for having a headlight out. He is using one of his senses to see the light isn’t working. He doesn’t have to carry around some device to measure light to show it isn’t working.

I think we can all agree that police can do and say whatever they want and get away with it, for the most part. However, California LAW specifies that exhausts must be below 95 dB. “Observation” of a headlight can be made visually. It is impossible to “observe” 95 decibels of sound at any distance without a calibrated scientific instrument because it is a scientific measurement. That’s why a cop has to have radar, laser or speedometer clock for a speeding ticket. They can’t give you a speeding ticket simply because your car LOOKS fast. They have to “observe” with a measurement. A cop can say whatever he wants to justify a stop. But with no measurement, the citation is invalid. Any judge will dismiss that case. Just pass the inspection and the noise thing will get dropped.


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[SaveMelMac]

Originally Posted by Solarsurge I think we can all agree that police can do and say whatever they want and get away with it, for the most part. However, California LAW specifies that exhausts must be below 95 dB. “Observation” of a headlight can be made visually. It is impossible to “observe” 95 decibels of sound at any distance without a calibrated scientific instrument because it is a scientific measurement. That’s why a cop has to have radar, laser or speedometer clock for a speeding ticket. They can’t give you a speeding ticket simply because your car LOOKS fast. They have to “observe” with a measurement. A cop can say whatever he wants to justify a stop. But with no measurement, the citation is invalid. Any judge will dismiss that case. Just pass the inspection and the noise thing will get dropped. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They don’t have to have radar on a car to give you a speeding ticket. If you are going 80 mph in a 25 they don’t have to get you on radar first in order to pull you over and issue a ticket. It’s all in how the officer explains how he figured out you were speeding, through observation, passing other cars, experience etc. I have known a few people who have gotten the modified exhaust ticket and none of the cops had a decimal meter. Guess what they all had to pay the fine and get it fixed. The only chance he has it getting thrown out is if the office does a poor job explaining how he knew it was over the limit. Like I said before if the cop says he heard him coming from 3 blocks away there’s the probable cause. Not saying the guy deserves a ticket because it is a bullshit one just to get you pulled over. The cop should be fighting some real crime instead of writing BS tickets.

Originally Posted by Pu Manchu so the process is submit to it, fight it, or cheat your way out of it. then maybe next time don't straight pipe your exhaust when you live in a restrictive state that wants to milk you.

True. I’ve been in the car game my whole life living in California. I learned a long time ago if your going to heavly mod, make your shit a quiet as possible, have a front plate and make sure all lights are working. Don’t give them a reason to pull you over in the first place.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by SaveMelMac They don’t have to have radar on a car to give you a speeding ticket. If you are going 80 mph in a 25 they don’t have to get you on radar first in order to pull you over and issue a ticket. It’s all in how the officer explains how he figured out you were speeding, through observation, passing other cars, experience etc. I have known a few people who have gotten the modified exhaust ticket and none of the cops had a decimal meter. Guess what they all had to pay the fine and get it fixed. The only chance he has it getting thrown out is if the office does a poor job explaining how he knew it was over the limit. Like I said before if the cop says he heard him coming from 3 blocks away there’s the probable cause. Not saying the guy deserves a ticket because it is a bullshit one just to get you pulled over. The cop should be fighting some real crime instead of writing BS tickets.

A decibel is a measurement of energy. More specifically, the amplitude of an energy wave at a specific distance from its origin, which can then be used to find the amplitude at its origin. It must be measured at a specific distance to be scientifically relevant. With no meter all he can scientifically "observe" is sound greater than 10 dB, the lowest that a human ear can "hear." Any exhaust above 76 dB can be heard from 3 blocks away. Coincidentally, 77 dB is the actual average dB level of ANY passenger car traveling at 65 mph. So, I'd applaud the cop. His ears work and he accurately heard a car exactly when he should have heard it. *Slow clap* In reality, that's *scientifically* better grounds for a speeding ticket than a noise ticket. lol

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Solarsurge I think we can all agree that police can do and say whatever they want and get away with it, for the most part. However, California LAW specifies that exhausts must be below 95 dB. “Observation” of a headlight can be made visually. It is impossible to “observe” 95 decibels of sound at any distance without a calibrated scientific instrument because it is a scientific measurement. That’s why a cop has to have radar, laser or speedometer clock for a speeding ticket. They can’t give you a speeding ticket simply because your car LOOKS fast. They have to “observe” with a measurement. A cop can say whatever he wants to justify a stop. But with no measurement, the citation is invalid. Any judge will dismiss that case. Just pass the inspection and the noise thing will get dropped. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tell that to the judge and see how far it gets you. We are not talking about speeding. The "I heard him coming three blocks away" will get the job done. He will need to get CARB compliant. He is wasting time trying to do otherwise.

I don't live in CA and intend to avoid it like the plague. I'll never take a modified car into that state. When I travel to CA on business I just get a rental and live with it until I return home where we have zero inspections, zero emission control laws, zero restrictions on power mods. As long as you have your seat belt on, have a valid tag and driver's license and don't get caught speeding, you can pretty much do whatever you want with your car. There are advantages in living is deplorable inhabited fly over states where we also have readily available 93 octane gas for less than $3 per gallon.

FWIW there are CARB legal intakes, exhausts and tunes. If you live there, you have to play by the rules or expect to pay if caught. Prove to the ref that your intake and as much other stuff as possible is CARB legal, and stock out on the rest or convert to CARB legal, or it may happen again.

[Pu Manchu]

so the process is submit to it, fight it, or cheat your way out of it. then maybe next time don't straight pipe your exhaust when you live in a restrictive state that wants to milk you.

[kTaLgsTo]

I don't know all about CA, but in OR a cop can get certified on speed judgment/analysis. This basically makes him an expert at judging how fast a car is going, he can submit his certificate during a court case and it's held as gospel.
As far as loud cars, all they need is to change it to/add disturbing the peace. Decibels well below 95 can be a disturbance and if they can prove you were in fact a disturbance then you're stuck...

[Solarsurge]

Here is a VERY clear explanation of CA law written by a CA muffler shop specifically to clarify what is and is not “legal” according to CA law:

http://www.bobsmuffler.com/noise.htm

TLDR: As long as your catalytic converter is intact and you have no exhaust cutout or bypass mechanism, modified exhausts are 100% legal. It actually states within the same section of that law the standards for measurement are established in CCR 1036, which clearly states that 95 dB is the limit, defines clearly HOW it must be measured, and at what distance. They simply can’t cite you for breaking half a law. There is a whole other section of that law that states exceptions and you are 100% legal if you do not exceed 95 dB. As I said before, with no measurement, there is no law broken.


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[CA_MS3]

Originally Posted by Solarsurge Here is a VERY clear explanation of CA law written by a CA muffler shop specifically to clarify what is and is not “legal” according to CA law: California's Modified Exhaust Law TLDR: As long as your catalytic converter is intact and you have no exhaust cutout or bypass mechanism, modified exhausts are 100% legal. It actually states within the same section of that law the standards for measurement are established in CCR 1036, which clearly states that 95 dB is the limit, defines clearly HOW it must be measured, and at what distance. They simply can’t cite you for breaking half a law. There is a whole other section of that law that states exceptions and you are 100% legal if you do not exceed 95 dB. As I said before, with no measurement, there is no law broken.

A few more thoughts regarding the CVC 27150(a) citation:
1) Full text of this statute is located here:
Law section
2) Noise certification guidance is located here:
https://www.bar.ca.gov/FormsPubs/Fac...ification.html
SAE J1169 specifies revving motor in neutral to 3/4 max rpm. Since motor is *not* under load, it should be relatively easy to pass with an aftermarket exhaust containing a resonator.
3) Many years ago, the CHP issued bulletin 98-100 to clarify its enforcement protocols. I could not find an original on ca.gov, but here is a copy:
http://www.bikersrights.com/states/c.../CHP98_100.pdf
Specifically note the answer to Q12 in attachment A.

I have carried a hard copy of this bulletin and the CBE manufacturer's statement of 95dB compliance in my cars for twenty years. I have never had to show them to a LEO, so I cannot speak to efficacy of that approach.