Trans Leak, Low Boost, Maintenance Items 2009 MS3

[IDRIDR]

2009 Mazdaspeed 3 with 98K miles I've owned for 2 months. As far as I can tell completely stock except for exhaust (catback?). I'm enjoying the car and plan to keep it for a while so have been researching maintenance and basic mods. VVT, water pump, spark plugs, thermostat, timing chain kit, and turbo intake hose replaced since purchase. Cobb accessport purchased to check current operation and plan for Stage 1 mods including fuel internals, cold air intake, rear engine mount. Car is and will remain my daily driver.

Took the car for about 20 miles this week making some pulls with the Cobb OTS Stage 0 Map. With this map and prior to any maps installed, peak logged boost is 11.98 and usually 10-11 during pulls. I can provide logs if anyone is interested. I've read that stock should be around 15 psi, so is this plan appropriate to see if stock boost can be improved and/or identify other potential issues?

1. clean intake valves with chem or media,
2. compression test while in there, maybe a leak-down if I can borrow the tools,
3. check for boost leaks.
4. after things check out, repairs made, etc, proceed with Stage 1 mods.

Secondly, after the pulls and parking in garage, a leak appeared for the first time. Oil smells and feels like gear oil, not motor oil. I need to dive in and see where this is coming from. Any guesses or suggestions for me?

[Vansquish]

Check your pivot shaft seal. It commonly fails on these cars.

[Jeff23spl]

Can the leak be coolant instead of oil ? but many have the shifter pivot seal problems...you will need to investigate and remove plastic cover because this way, it can be anything.

For the boost, yes a datalog could help to see if something is looking wrong but 2 things:
1-boost is reduced and limited until the car reach a minimum speed in third gear or more, so tests need to be done in fourth gear.
2 Stock map are usually load based. this mean that the ecu is targeting engine torque instead of a boost level. In cold weather or when air is dense, you will get it at lower boost level than when it is very hot....The main reading for load is the maf sensor....if something is wrong there, it will drive the load in a bad way.....Dataloging of your LTFT and STFT in close loop can be representative here. IT should remain below 8%....

[Reds3]

You should take some photos of the pivot shaft, as Vansquish said it is very likely your seal has bit the dust. Excellent guide on how to replace it, used it to do mine with no problems. If you havent replaced the gear oil yet you should do so while tackling this. Goodluck!

[IDRIDR]

Originally Posted by Vansquish Check your pivot shaft seal. It commonly fails on these cars.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl Can the leak be coolant instead of oil ? but many have the shifter pivot seal problems...you will need to investigate and remove plastic cover because this way, it can be anything. For the boost, yes a datalog could help to see if something is looking wrong but 2 things: 1-boost is reduced and limited until the car reach a minimum speed in third gear or more, so tests need to be done in fourth gear. 2 Stock map are usually load based. this mean that the ecu is targeting engine torque instead of a boost level. In cold weather or when air is dense, you will get it at lower boost level than when it is very hot....The main reading for load is the maf sensor....if something is wrong there, it will drive the load in a bad way.....Dataloging of your LTFT and STFT in close loop can be representative here. IT should remain below 8%....

The leak is not coolant. I'm 95% positive between feeling and smelling the leaked fluid compared to the oil from the dipstick it is gear oil. The smell of hot/burning gear oil where it is getting onto the hot motor and/or exhaust is pretty distinctive (stinky!!).

1. The boost numbers above 10 psi are from speeds of 55 to 80+ mph. These are 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.

2. The recent pulls in Stage 0 map were done with ambient air temp in mid to high 80s F, with logged intake temp ranging from 95 to 109 F and boost air temp from 106 to 138 F. Highest intake temps when stopped at idle and highest boost air temps when off throttle coasting to a stop (makes sense to me).

LTFT ranged from -3.28 to 9.2 and STFT ranged from -22 to 20. These are wider swings than you list. The map was just changed from Economy to Stage 0 before this 40 minute drive so could there be some ECU "learning" involved? Was this is closed loop (I don't know how to tell....please enlighten me!).

Here's a link to the log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S8g...ew?usp=sharing


Many thanks!!

Originally Posted by Reds3 You should take some photos of the pivot shaft, as Vansquish said it is very likely your seal has bit the dust. Excellent guide on how to replace it, used it to do mine with no problems. If you havent replaced the gear oil yet you should do so while tackling this. Goodluck!

Yes, the gear oil will be replaced as I've not done this and don't know when or if it was last done. Where is this excellent guide you speak of? I'll search, but, you know knoobs, always trying to find the easy way out without going to the huuuge effort of actually searching on their own!

Thanks!

[Reds3]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR Thank you! The leak is not coolant. I'm 95% positive between feeling and smelling the leaked fluid compared to the oil from the dipstick it is gear oil. The smell of hot/burning gear oil where it is getting onto the hot motor and/or exhaust is pretty distinctive (stinky!!). 1. The boost numbers above 10 psi are from speeds of 55 to 80+ mph. These are 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. 2. The recent pulls in Stage 0 map were done with ambient air temp in mid to high 80s F, with logged intake temp ranging from 95 to 109 F and boost air temp from 106 to 138 F. Highest intake temps when stopped at idle and highest boost air temps when off throttle coasting to a stop (makes sense to me). LTFT ranged from -3.28 to 9.2 and STFT ranged from -22 to 20. These are wider swings than you list. The map was just changed from Economy to Stage 0 before this 40 minute drive so could there be some ECU "learning" involved? Was this is closed loop (I don't know how to tell....please enlighten me!). Here's a link to the log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S8g...ew?usp=sharing Many thanks!! Yes, the gear oil will be replaced as I've not done this and don't know when or if it was last done. Where is this excellent guide you speak of? I'll search, but, you know knoobs, always trying to find the easy way out without going to the huuuge effort of actually searching on their own! Thanks!

How-to: MS3 Pivot Shaft Seal, Bearing, Breather Replacement

He makes a note of replacing the breather as it can become gummed up and clog.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR feeling and smelling the leaked fluid compared to the oil from the dipstick it is gear oil. The smell of hot/burning gear oil where it is getting onto the hot motor and/or exhaust is pretty distinctive (stinky!!). LTFT ranged from -3.28 to 9.2 and STFT ranged from -22 to 20. These are wider swings than you list. The map was just changed from Economy to Stage 0 before this 40 minute drive so could there be some ECU "learning" involved? Was this is closed loop (I don't know how to tell....please enlighten me!).

It feel and smell gear oil but does it taste like gear oil ??? lol

The data seem to be tested correctly during conditions that won't necessary reduce boost....(That point is almost cleared)
For the Maf, the learned values are the LTFT STFT, short trim react quickly and if the added fuel is needed for a long period, the value is transferred to the LTFT. The sum of both is well above 8-10%....You may wait a 150-200 driven miles to check again but it seem wrong and close to drop a cel code...It would be time for my usual suggestion of a boost leak test with a home depot pipe and an air nozzle. You replace the filter with it and push 15-20 psi into the circuit to check if air is leaking somewhere.....If not, you need to look at maf install and/or maf curve programmed in your tune.

Close loop is when the ECU use the sensor feedback to correct the parameters tables until it reach the targeted values. (Learning) Open loop is when load is above the trigger point (1-1.17 load in stock map) Or usually when you get under some boost. At this point it is suppose to basically send the tables data and no longer correct them with sensor feedbacks. (Not learning)
Is is a general resume and there is still exceptions to that but keep in mind: We want to check Maf scaling against LTFT/STFT in closed loop mode.

And for the log, you need to start it just when you are going to do a wot run and stop it after what you wanna check is over....this help others to give a look without spending an hour to figure out which part could be interesting.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR Thank you! The leak is not coolant. I'm 95% positive between feeling and smelling the leaked fluid compared to the oil from the dipstick it is gear oil. The smell of hot/burning gear oil where it is getting onto the hot motor and/or exhaust is pretty distinctive (stinky!!). 1. The boost numbers above 10 psi are from speeds of 55 to 80+ mph. These are 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. 2. The recent pulls in Stage 0 map were done with ambient air temp in mid to high 80s F, with logged intake temp ranging from 95 to 109 F and boost air temp from 106 to 138 F. Highest intake temps when stopped at idle and highest boost air temps when off throttle coasting to a stop (makes sense to me). LTFT ranged from -3.28 to 9.2 and STFT ranged from -22 to 20. These are wider swings than you list. The map was just changed from Economy to Stage 0 before this 40 minute drive so could there be some ECU "learning" involved? Was this is closed loop (I don't know how to tell....please enlighten me!). Here's a link to the log: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S8g...ew?usp=sharing Many thanks!! Yes, the gear oil will be replaced as I've not done this and don't know when or if it was last done. Where is this excellent guide you speak of? I'll search, but, you know knoobs, always trying to find the easy way out without going to the huuuge effort of actually searching on their own! Thanks!

What is your altitude? Maybe I missed that. It can also affect available boost, depending on how your tune is set up.

You can post your .csv format data logs directly here. You do not have to use a hosting service, as with many other user groups. Also, you can directly post photos when appropriate., as you have already figured out.

Welcome to the forum. It is very nice to see a new member who has actually taken the time to thoughtfully consider the issue, do some basic research in the threads here and post in language that is actually easy to read and understand. We need more like you, sir!

I, for one, greatly appreciate your thoughtful post. We have been inundated recently with new members that do not share your values. They want quick answers to complex issues with no helpful background information to assist in the diagnosis. They have no interest in conducting any sort of search of the robust resources here, and expect to be spoon fed.

Rant over. Welcome.

[IDRIDR]

Originally Posted by Reds3 How-to: MS3 Pivot Shaft Seal, Bearing, Breather Replacement He makes a note of replacing the breather as it can become gummed up and clog.

That's a beautiful write-up.

Could it be possible that the fluid was recently changed, perhaps filled a little fuller than it should, and heat from a longer drive forced some out a breather? Will I be able to tell when I start inspecting?

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl It feel and smell gear oil but does it taste like gear oil ??? lol

I didn't taste, but will next time. I'm more in tune with Rotella T4, Trader Joe's Virgin Olive Oil, Kama Sutra Sweet Almond, and a double IPA.

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl The data seem to be tested correctly during conditions that won't necessary reduce boost....(That point is almost cleared) For the Maf, the learned values are the LTFT STFT, short trim react quickly and if the added fuel is needed for a long period, the value is transferred to the LTFT. The sum of both is well above 8-10%....You may wait a 150-200 driven miles to check again but it seem wrong and close to drop a cel code...It would be time for my usual suggestion of a boost leak test with a home depot pipe and an air nozzle. You replace the filter with it and push 15-20 psi into the circuit to check if air is leaking somewhere.....If not, you need to look at maf install and/or maf curve programmed in your tune. Close loop is when the ECU use the sensor feedback to correct the parameters tables until it reach the targeted values. (Learning) Open loop is when load is above the trigger point (1-1.17 load in stock map) Or usually when you get under some boost. At this point it is suppose to basically send the tables data and no longer correct them with sensor feedbacks. (Not learning) Is is a general resume and there is still exceptions to that but keep in mind: We want to check Maf scaling against LTFT/STFT in closed loop mode. And for the log, you need to start it just when you are going to do a wot run and stop it after what you wanna check is over....this help others to give a look without spending an hour to figure out which part could be interesting.

The boost leak test has already been anticipated. It's a 10 yo car with nearly 100 K miles, so some boost leak points wouldn't be a surprise. That's why the turbo intake tube was replaced (with OEM) because the nipple to the bypass valve actuator was busted (I think that's what this was...I'm on a steep learning curve as this is my first turbo).

Thanks for the explanation on LTFT and SHFT and open/closed loop. I've read that elsewhere but you've drilled it in now.

I'll do that on the log (start / stop a short segment). I wanted to see how all this was behaving driving easy, hard, and in-between.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 What is your altitude? Maybe I missed that. It can also affect available boost, depending on how your tune is set up. You can post your .csv format data logs directly here. You do not have to use a hosting service, as with many other user groups. Also, you can directly post photos when appropriate., as you have already figured out. Welcome to the forum. It is very nice to see a new member who has actually taken the time to thoughtfully consider the issue, do some basic research in the threads here and post in language that is actually easy to read and understand. We need more like you, sir! I, for one, greatly appreciate your thoughtful post. We have been inundated recently with new members that do not share your values. They want quick answers to complex issues with no helpful background information to assist in the diagnosis. They have no interest in conducting any sort of search of the robust resources here, and expect to be spoon fed. Rant over. Welcome.

I meant to include altitude as I was thinking of that as putting the post together. I'm in Boise, Idaho at around 2500 to 2800 ft ASL.

I'll post the .csv directly if that's better. I don't think I figured out direct photos as those above are hosted on smugmug. I'm used to other forums requiring a hosting service.

Thank you for the Welcome. I appreciate it.
As an engineer, I prefer to do some research first before jumping in and just looking and being stupid. Also, I'm a bit older than a Millennial, but not quite a boomer. Age sometimes helps, and I know of the types you speak of. I see them here and the other forums I frequent. I enjoy working on my motorcycles and getting to know them. I'm looking forward to doing the same with this speed 3.


To all above, thank you again!

[Reds3]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR That's a beautiful write-up. Could it be possible that the fluid was recently changed, perhaps filled a little fuller than it should, and heat from a longer drive forced some out a breather? Will I be able to tell when I start inspecting?

i've not seen that happen before. If you do see gear oil ontop of the pivot shaft plate though your seal is gone, and it will leak over. Mine was leaking on my driveway. Under hard breaking the seal would leak and drip down

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by Reds3 i've not seen that happen before. If you do see gear oil ontop of the pivot shaft plate though your seal is gone, and it will leak over. Mine was leaking on my driveway. Under hard breaking the seal would leak and drip down

mine never leak enough to be seen on the ground but over a year or 2, i was telling to myself, it is just an oil trace until it burned the transmission main bearing....

[Reds3]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl mine never leak enough to be seen on the ground but over a year or 2, i was telling to myself, it is just an oil trace until it burned the transmission main bearing....

The mazda life

[IDRIDR]

Juicy...

[IDRIDR]

Do I need to disconnect these two masses of wires to remove the battery box? If so, how?

[Reds3]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR Do I need to disconnect these two masses of wires to remove the battery box? If so, how?

The ecu is attached to that, theres 2 latches on each connector that you need to pry up on *Lightly* to release the lock. 3-4 bolts to remove the battery box.

You dont have to remove that though if you have removed your airbox or intake already. i was able to do mine without removing it.

[IDRIDR]

Dr

Originally Posted by Reds3 The ecu is attached to that, theres 2 latches on each connector that you need to pry up on *Lightly* to release the lock. 3-4 bolts to remove the battery box. You dont have to remove that though if you have removed your airbox or intake already. i was able to do mine without removing it.

I can see the pivot shaft seal can be replaced without removing the battery box. I was thinking about chasing turbo leaks ... the box would probably need to come out.

[Reds3]

Originally Posted by IDRIDR Dr I can see the pivot shaft seal can be replaced without removing the battery box. I was thinking about chasing turbo leaks ... the box would probably need to come out.

oh yes, my bad i missed that.

[IDRIDR]

Here's an update.

Part came in Thursday. I ordered the complete pivot shaft seal with breather assembly.

Replaced the unit Saturday and changed fluid. Tested yesterday after RTV setup for 24-hours and no leaks.

Thanks all for the guidance and especially dynobunny for the How-To writeup!