Why does your motor blow?

[danesti]

who`s whoosh?

[Speedn3]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Lots of people viewing but not very many posts, interesting.

Well....my reason is because I've been in the garage trying to gather all my stock parts so I can demod and sell this POS. For me it's not worth it.
Gonnna go ahead and take the hit on depreciation. Much cheaper than a denied warranty for a blown engine.
Definitely appreciate your hard work though.

[08_ms3_gt]

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider i would suspect that many people drive their disi mzr engined cars for long trips at cruising speeds.

x2 - many people drive a LOT on w/e car they have. i'm sure plenty of speeds have seen plenty of miles. and this is freaking me out b/c i have a road trip coming up!

a thought - what about the smoking turbo issue? at low/vac pressure, the seals in the turbo let oil past. let's assume that it's not only on the turbine side but also the compressor (engine) side. a lot drive at low/vac pressure would let lots of oil into the intake tract...?

[ms3077]

OMG oh noz everyone's motor is going to blow. If mine does blow, I'm selling the POS after it's repaired under warranty. I'm not going to just keep on buying aftermarket shit just to make it driveable, fucking rediculous.

[Decepticon]

so cruising at around 3k range is bad for this car? how bout shifting at that range?...i know some have said that's no good either..

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by whoosh i'm here watching all this get figured out "again" lol no offense John, but the oil in the mani is an old news kind of thing a correct OCC with extra pcv or check valve and deleted egr kept my intake clean as a whistle I never had knock on my no tune set up additionally, the reason I opened up the rear of the valve cover and vented it to a different OCC (vented/filter on top) is because I didn't want any oily vapor entering the intake tract when boosting as I was at or above 20psi no BS it's a full time job to keep this engine clean I cleaned or replaced plugs often, changed my fuel sheared oil every 2500 miles with PP and kept my OCC empty all the time (every weekend)

Yes Whoosh it is, but why is it getting into there? Its not as simple as one would think and the OCC and pcv will fix it to a point, after that it just starts to fill up the OCC (we have seen this first hand). We are going to be moving the PCV valve out of the stock location and putting it somewhere else.

I think you may have missed the point on this, the motors are hydrolocking. Its the oil or fuel that is causing the hydrolock and bending the rods. How is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor? Why is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor?

I think I have pretty much ruled out the fuel, so it can only be the oil that is causing the issue. Is it getting sucked into the intake and then into the head? If so, how much is getting sucked into there. As you can see we had to fill 2 of the cyl's enough to shorten the rods by a 1/3 of a inch. That would mean there was over a 1/2 quart of oil that filled those 2 cly's. How did it get there? That is what I am getting at and I know that you hurt your motor not to long ago, was it a bent rod issue or ?? Please, details on one of the highest WHP 6's and the problems you ran into with your motor would be a huge help in finding out the problem. Thanks.

[stevessvt]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Yes Whoosh it is, but why is it getting into there? Its not as simple as one would think and the OCC and pcv will fix it to a point, after that it just starts to fill up the OCC (we have seen this first hand). We are going to be moving the PCV valve out of the stock location and putting it somewhere else. I think you may have missed the point on this, the motors are hydrolocking. Its the oil or fuel that is causing the hydrolock and bending the rods. How is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor? Why is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor? I think I have pretty much ruled out the fuel, so it can only be the oil that is causing the issue. Is it getting sucked into the intake and then into the head? If so, how much is getting sucked into there. As you can see we had to fill 2 of the cyl's enough to shorten the rods by a 1/3 of a inch. That would mean there was over a 1/2 quart of oil that filled those 2 cly's. How did it get there? That is what I am getting at and I know that you hurt your motor not to long ago, was it a bent rod issue or ?? Please, details on one of the highest WHP 6's and the problems you ran into with your motor would be a huge help in finding out the problem. Thanks.

So if it takes that much oil to hydrolock these, wouldnt it show up missing on the dipstick?

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Yes Whoosh it is, but why is it getting into there? Its not as simple as one would think and the OCC and pcv will fix it to a point, after that it just starts to fill up the OCC (we have seen this first hand). We are going to be moving the PCV valve out of the stock location and putting it somewhere else. I think you may have missed the point on this, the motors are hydrolocking. Its the oil or fuel that is causing the hydrolock and bending the rods. How is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor? Why is that much fuel or oil getting into the motor? I think I have pretty much ruled out the fuel, so it can only be the oil that is causing the issue. Is it getting sucked into the intake and then into the head? If so, how much is getting sucked into there. As you can see we had to fill 2 of the cyl's enough to shorten the rods by a 1/3 of a inch. That would mean there was over a 1/2 quart of oil that filled those 2 cly's. How did it get there? That is what I am getting at and I know that you hurt your motor not to long ago, was it a bent rod issue or ?? Please, details on one of the highest WHP 6's and the problems you ran into with your motor would be a huge help in finding out the problem. Thanks.

IMO if oil was hydrolocking the motor you would have huge clouds of smoke behind the car not to mention oil residue (wet plugs) and missing. You would have several pints of oil in the intake and would be losing oil at well over a QT per oil change.

Appreciate your efforts but Seriously !!! . Come up with a better theory.

Harry

I can under knocking due to oil contamination

[Deadman]

ron never had a problem with his ms6... not one as far as failures go... he beat the hell out of the car and it runs fine today.. I drove from my place to villanova 6.5hrs non stop one way, not to mention the driving i did while in the city.. I deleted the BS put in a baffle (OVER FILLED MY OIL NONE THE LESS) and i will be honest i see at most if at all .7-1.4KR at or around 3k rpm.. I have not seen it for months not once on the drive there or back... i agree with ztuner you would smoke the whole fucking road up... sorry but i dont like this theory one bit.

[Snyeed]

I have driven my car twice to Colorado from Utah which is 6+ hours one way, I was Cobb stage 1+ and have no problems.

[oncogene1]

I recently took my car from des moines, IA to scottsdale, Az. it was well over 3000 miles through the mountains(high rpm driving and partial boosting because of it) and everything was just fine. I have since put another 3000 non the car and it runs perfectly.

[LBV]

Originally Posted by ztuner IMO if oil was hydrolocking the motor you would have huge clouds of smoke behind the car not to mention oil residue (wet plugs) and missing. You would have several pints of oil in the intake and would be losing oil at well over a QT per oil change.

After the initial 'oh crap, i gotta sell my car' hysteria went away and I thought about this more, I've got to agree with ztuner here. It would take a hell of a lot of oil to hydrolock a motor and cause a bent rod and you'd get all kinds of side-affects before-hand of excessive oil use as also mentioned.

We may be getting pieces of the puzzle into place but I don't think we're there yet.

[chrisyng]

thanks for raising the paranoia level to new heights with this thread.. In my opinion this theory is pretty well bullshit.. I've been on several straight 10 hr road trips.. cruising on the highway at 3000-3500rpm for most of the way.. never seen a bit of smoke, oil level never dropped.. This is on my ms6 that regularly sees 18psi with an AP...
Aside from the type of fuel injection, and the strength of the internals, these blocks are really no different from the NA motors.. not to mention all the ms3's, ms6's, cx7's on the road of all years.. if this was an inherent flaw with the motor, and they are all ticking time bombs, you would see rampant motors with bent rods everywhere.. the community that are on these forums are jsut a small sampling of the total number of owners out there enjoying their cars with no issues...

I appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to try and diagnose what's going on with motors blowing, however, It seems to me like you are the type to jump the gun a little bit with all these announcements ie: hp level limits due to DI, blown motors due to oil hydolocking, a simple MAF screen will solve all your driveability ills, with no real conclusive proof aside from whatever fame or status or notoriety recieved from the internet community.. WHy is the community not up in arms beating down mazda's doors, calling up the media askig for a recall because mazda is selling self destructing motors? instead the community is just sold more misinformation and products that try and "FIX" these issues...

If my motor which now has 40,000km's decides to bend it's rods and self destruct due to it hydolocking from excessive oil.. I'll be the first to appologize and wipe the egg off my face...

however I am just tired of hearing people coming up with more ill founded theories trying to figure out why motors are bowing up.. It's almost like religion as a whole.. not a whole lot of proof, just people willing to follow on faith alone because they don't know the answers.. so they will blindly take the word of whoever they decide is their messiah and cal it a day...

This in my opinion is not good or the community at all. it is jsut going to continue making people paranoid overall about their cars, even if they have no need to be and jsut give these cars a worse reputation than it already has.. good going...

[Deadman]

drive the car like you stole it. It's just a car

[Lex]

First of all, the part throttle knock people are seeing is due to the ECU's attempts to maximize timing at part load.

Secondly, if oil was hydrolocking the motor, you would lose a lot of oil. No one is experiencing a lot of oil burning with these cars. If it was coming through the intake constantly it would be coming through the PCV and would burn all the time.

If your theory is that snap vacuum would cause the cylinders to fill with oil, that is a little far fetched because let's say that the PCV valve allowed massive amounts of oil to be sucked through - then your valve cover would have to be filled with oil for it to have anything to suck through. This means there would be massive amounts of oil in there.

The charred oil you see on the sides of the pistons is a testament of how hot the combustion runs in this car. This is why a quality synthetic is very important amongst other things.

The rods that you are showing right here - what driving conditions did they bend under?

I appreciate the work you're doing but I have a hard time believing that oil hydrolocked that motor.

[ms3077]

Sometimes I get the feeling that some are just trying to sell more parts... I hope this isn't true but if it is, I'm glad I have the intellect to see thru it.

[Cosmic3MPS]

Honestly guys, I have done the long trip thing heaps of time where this did NOT happen as well. But this time it did! Just because you drove 6 hours and nothing happened is no proof your engine is bullet proof. Jon has described the circumstances of my demise perfectly. I look forward to seeing what testing can be done to confirm or disprove what he is saying.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Honestly guys, I have done the long trip thing heaps of time where this did NOT happen as well. But this time it did! Just because you drove 6 hours and nothing happened is no proof your engine is bullet proof. Jon has described the circumstances of my demise perfectly. I look forward to seeing what testing can be done to confirm or disprove what he is saying.

Yours blew? well then it wasn't from hydrolocking the motor due to oil.. Something else caused this or lead up to it. Did you see clouds of smoke before it blew? DId it miss ? There would be obvious problems leading up to this theory. Sorry i myself just don't buy it.

[smakdown61]

This is a theory with evidence. I don't see how you guys can shit on it if you don't have any substantial proof proving otherwise. I don't see anyone else tearing their motor down to find out whats going on. If you have another theory to present, lets see some analysis and pics to show you actually put some effort into the research like ptp has. It may not be correct in the end run but at least hes putting in the time.

[Deadman]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 This is a theory with evidence. I don't see how you guys can shit on it if you don't have any substantial proof proving otherwise. I don't see anyone else tearing their motor down to find out whats going on. If you have another theory to present, lets see some analysis and pics to show you actually put some effort into the research like ptp has. It may not be correct in the end run but at least hes putting in the time.

nobody is putting him down for it... his is just that a "theory"

Thats all it is, he can rip apart 65 motors and still fall back on this i dont care.. Im just saying you can't put this ahead of any other theory out there.

"The average temperature of a piston crown in a gasoline engine during normal operation is typically about 300C (600 degrees Fahrenheit) The normal temperature of gasoline engine exhaust is approximately 650C (1200F). This is also approximately the melting point of most aluminium alloys and it is only the constant influx of ambient air that prevents the piston from deforming and failing. Forced induction increases the operating temperatures while “under boost” and if the excess heat is added faster than engine can shed it, the elevated cylinder temperatures will cause the air and fuel mix to auto-ignite on the compression stroke before the spark event. This is one type of engine knocking that causes a sudden shockwave and pressure spike, which can result in an immediate and catastrophic failure of the piston and connecting rod."

[Cosmic3MPS]

Dogmatism is a poor approach. Let testing reveal the truth. This is good work that is being done to help the community and I for one am grateful

[bova]

John, do you have a picture of what the plugs look like that were pulled from this motor?

[yang_jackson]

contact the ford engineer yet? i appreciate all the efforts you have done in researching the probs our cars are having. it would be nice to get insight from a ford engineer inregards to your findings/theories. with all the theories flying around about why our motors are blowing,it would be good to get some input from an engineer from ford/mazda.i don't know much, but i think this may be a piece to the puzzle. with the numbers of speeds out there and the small percentage that have blown, im not sure how true it is that there is a design flaw, but i am glad regardless, im glad yall are working to get to the bottom of this. i look foward to hearing what the ford engineer had to say about this. thanks.

[Lex]

However, here's something to chew on.

Most of us know that the Mazda 6 had a PCV valve that failed and caused blown engines due to oil consumption. The 6 however is not boosted and failure might not be as dramatic.

If our valve were to fail, and you boosted increasing crankcase pressure (wth a busted PCV not closing under boost which we have seen through blown dipsticks) and then let off causing vacuum, it is possible that you could pull a significant amount of oil through the PCV system.

COBB has a writeup about putting in a catchcan with a secondary PCV such that if the stock one fails, the secondary one will prevent the scenario I just mentioned.

EDIT: On top of this the "smoking turbos" theory might also just be a bad PCV valve.

This PCV issue might just be coming together.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by oncogene1 I recently took my car from des moines, IA to scottsdale, Az. it was well over 3000 miles through the mountains(high rpm driving and partial boosting because of it) and everything was just fine. I have since put another 3000 non the car and it runs perfectly.

Nice to see another Iowan on the boards. Welcome!

I've been contemplating different PCV locations lately, different PCV's from other vehicles (part number on that Lightning fix Haltech???) as well as putting my catch can back in plumbed into those different locations. Any hints on this testing setup that I can try and provide feedback on? I'm about ready to freak out on this car with the constant smoking... can't go through a friggin fast food drive through without smoking out the clerk... Mazda, fark yew!

[flz33]

Interesting info here regarding oil issues..

I believe whoosh's car was stock block, GT35R, fully bolted, EWG.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Deadman ron never had a problem with his ms6... not one as far as failures go... he beat the hell out of the car and it runs fine today.. I drove from my place to villanova 6.5hrs non stop one way, not to mention the driving i did while in the city.. I deleted the BS put in a baffle (OVER FILLED MY OIL NONE THE LESS) and i will be honest i see at most if at all .7-1.4KR at or around 3k rpm.. I have not seen it for months not once on the drive there or back... i agree with ztuner you would smoke the whole fucking road up... sorry but i dont like this theory one bit.

I have driven my car for 11k miles out of which 9 - 10 k are Interstate trips on I75, down to Naples and Up to Tampa. My car does not consume oil. On my last oil change the oil i removed filled up the same containers the new oil came in. I was maybe 1/4 qt down and thats most likely due to spillage and oil in the filter etc etc. Oil change was at 5 k. Oil consitence looked good to the naked eye. Next time i will get an analysis done. Honestly i think fuel in oil might be due to BPV's venting to atm. How many people run VTA ? Everytime you shift fuel washes down the cly walls thus contaminating the oil .

Harry

[TrueSleeper]

May be a stupid guestion but what is PCV?

I also don´t have eny knocking on WOT, only cruising at 3000-3500 RPM.

Have some mods but same thing was when it was stock.

[Deadman]

I run VTA have for many miles now..I run same setup as Ron minus the gt35r (i have half his shit lol)

theories are only that... so i guess we will wait and see

[chrisyng]

here is nothing wrong with theories.. proving and disproving theories are going to help in finding a definitive answer to the questions we seek.. the problem is with delivery..
Put it this way, a thread came up regarding the max hp limit on the stock fuel system.. a theory was put out as to why people were not getting beyond a certain power level.. however this theory was presented as fact... then another group came along and said they managed to make more power than what people took as gospel.. all on the stock fuel system.. so an argument ensues between the 2 parties. so who is right? allegations are thrown around about people making things up or not teling the truth.. this doesn't bring us any closer to the real answer..
Now this theory comes along about blowing motors.. again it's all in the delivery.. it is being presented in such a way that leads people to belive this is truely the reason why motors are blowing up... this leads to paranoia.. perhaps THIS particular motor met it's death because of this reason, but it does not mean all motors are going to undergo the same fate.. remember.. in this particular case, the car was the shop car.. it's undergone alot of different modifications, testing, generally put through alot more than the average car is going to see... I do find it ironic that there has been hype about putting in maf screens on the intake all of a sudden, how it was the best mod ever, and a couple days after the car it was probably tested on is dead... I'm not saying both are related.. just ironic..

It seems to me that the general trend has been for people to post up things as fact to try and legitimize their claim in being the superior mazdaspeed tuners.. that's my problem with it all.. the forum has alot of members.. with more new people joining everyday.. a majorty of these forum members may not be as up on automotives as some others and will read this stuff and take it as gospel.. then they spread it around to other people they meet and all of a sudden the general public has formed views about this platform which is just not true...

much like the bad rap Rotary motors got.. alot of ill informed people believed in their unreliability.. that they all needed to rebuilt at 60,000 miles etc etc... generally untrue..

okay.. .I' ll come off my soap box now.. as I said before, I appreciate the fact that ptp is doing some fact finding as to what caused the destruction of this particular motor.. what they find will lead to better things.. but I still do not feel it's right to come out and lead people to belive that this will eventually happen to everyone ...

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Lex First of all, the part throttle knock people are seeing is due to the ECU's attempts to maximize timing at part load. Secondly, if oil was hydrolocking the motor, you would lose a lot of oil. No one is experiencing a lot of oil burning with these cars. If it was coming through the intake constantly it would be coming through the PCV and would burn all the time. If your theory is that snap vacuum would cause the cylinders to fill with oil, that is a little far fetched because let's say that the PCV valve allowed massive amounts of oil to be sucked through - then your valve cover would have to be filled with oil for it to have anything to suck through. This means there would be massive amounts of oil in there. The charred oil you see on the sides of the pistons is a testament of how hot the combustion runs in this car. This is why a quality synthetic is very important amongst other things. The rods that you are showing right here - what driving conditions did they bend under? I appreciate the work you're doing but I have a hard time believing that oil hydrolocked that motor.

THANK YOU. Add up 18 to 20 psi to 9:1 compression , very low timing at peak load and you equal EXTREMLY high combustion temps and pressures. Very good for efficiency no good for reliability. What needs to be done is testing on the piston material and the tensile strength of the stock "forged" rods. You will then see the need for stronger internals. IMO the upgrade path for this motor would be the following.

1. Strongest forged pistons you can find with ceramic coating (Wiescos come to mind)
2. Strongest rods you can find. Carrilos or Pauters
3. Lower CR by .5 to 8.5:1
4. Run richer + run more timing = lower combustion temps

Then you can run higher boost. Also realize that on pump gas you can run only so much boost. DI or not you cannot change the laws of physics. Some good reading for you >>

Dynamic CR
Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator

If anyone has the the following info you can calculate DCR. Remember or intake valve timing is adjustable / tunable so we may be able to compensate using that.

Number of Cylinders :
Bore in Inches :
Stroke in Inches :
Rod Length in Inches :
Static Compression Ratio : (:1)
Inlet Valve Closes ABDC : º
Boost Pressure in PSI :
Target Altitude :

Harry

[boosted3]

I have 42000 mile son my car been fully bolted over a year and i drive my car hard since the first day.I gues sits just a matter of time.But the bsd is comingout soon and baffle goign in.Its been sitting in my room for ahwile.I would like to get a oil catch can but what is a good one to get.Tanks ptp for r&d.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by TrueSleeper May be a stupid guestion but what is PCV? I also don´t have eny knocking on WOT, only cruising at 3000-3500 RPM. Have some mods but same thing was when it was stock.

PCV = positive crankcase ventilation. It is supposed to suck out oil vapors or excess pressure from the crankcase while the engine is running. On cars that are boosted you have to ensure that the pcv system is not leaking backward otherwise you can actually pressurise the crankase instead of venting it. On turbo cars there are 2 sub systems that work together.

1. Under vaccum a 1 way check valve opens up due to vaccum in the plenum and sucks the vapors out of the valve cover. The pickup for this valve is normally located between the throttle body and the engine itself. This works because when the throttle is only slightly open it generates significant vaccum in the intake plenum. At the same time the crank case pressures are at Ambient pressure or higher so the vapors tend to flow into the intake plenum.

2. Under boost the intake pressures are usually higher than ambient pressures (hence boost). This closes the one way check valve and the system in 1 no longer works, however there is another outlet on the valve cover that feeds to the inlet side of the turbo (intake pipe between MAF and Turbo). Since the turbo creates suction, it tends to suck out the vapors that build up in the crank case.

This system works fine IF
1. There is not excessive crank case pressure - if there is you will end up with oil in the turbo inlet, turbo and IC)
2. The 2 outlets on the valve cover are sufficiently above the oil level in the head so they don't suck oil into the tubes instead of vapor.
3. There is enough pressure differential in either case listed above. This is part of PCV design and is controlled by location, tubing size, intake restriction etc etc and some designs work better than others. Once you start upgrading your car a lot of this goes out of the window.

PTP is talking about the #1 system saying that the vaccum is sucking oil into the intake plenum while crusing due to a design defect in the PCV system. He claims there is enough oil loss to flood the combustion chamber with oil and cause a hydrolock.

Hope this helps

Harry

[boosted3]

Originally Posted by Cosmic3MPS Honestly guys, I have done the long trip thing heaps of time where this did NOT happen as well. But this time it did! Just because you drove 6 hours and nothing happened is no proof your engine is bullet proof. Jon has described the circumstances of my demise perfectly. I look forward to seeing what testing can be done to confirm or disprove what he is saying.

Exactly i drove to both eecm meets and 1 was in west virgina 7 hrs and the other was in myrtle beach south carolina 13 hrs and my car is still holding together.

[Deadman]

so does having my valve cover dual vented to a catch can help any of these supossed situations?

[boosted3]

I am just glad someone is breaking the motor down.What other ways can we control the oil as of now.The baffle and catch can and what else?What catch can is everyone using soi can order 1 asap

[Enki]

I may be way off base here, but if the engine is hydro-locking, then upgraded rods would only serve to pop the head off like a cork, or cause the piston to fail spectacularly, right?

I mean the whole reason damage is done is because the piston comes to a complete stop on the upward stroke, which causes the rods to bend, as fluids don't compress like gasses do.

From an analytical standpoint, it seems more reasonable to me that a decent quantity of oil sprays the piston on the intake stroke and causes detonation of the fuel/air charge on the compression stroke. Obviously, this would show the same end-result.

Not trying to flame or start any fights or anything, simply attempting to provide a counter-argument to this thread.

Thoughts?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by boosted3 Exactly i drove to both eecm meets and 1 was in west virgina 7 hrs and the other was in myrtle beach south carolina 13 hrs and my car is still holding together.

Remember that this hypothetical scenario is explosive - in that if it were to occur, the failure would be immediate where the valve would stock being a check valve (collapse) and you'd instantly pull a large amount of oil in the motor. So saying that you've had the car on long trips means very little ... the car will function as designed and not have any problems until something fails.

I am curious how many people with a history of "smoking" have also blown the motor.

[boosted3]

My car was smoking for a couple of months at idle but all of a sudden it went away.Hasent smoked since.and i duno why it stopped

[Frequentflyer]

Maybe this Ford Engineer can hang his shlong out on the table and say something to someone high up enough in the chain to get something done about this at Mazda? Ok, maybe I'm dreaming...