2013 Mazda5 BT build thread

[sac02]

2013 Mazda5 (not a typo)
GT2871R
Other stuff

If you feel the need to:
1. Tell me how stupid I am for doing this instead of buying a ms3, or
2. Tell me I should have swapped in a DISI engine,
please search my post history for the (many) times I have already answered these questions.

Onto the build...

Started yesterday (July 12, 2014) morning with disassembly.

Lunch break. Haven't run into any unexpected problems yet, so morale is still high. The stock manifold and "downpipe" are quite large and difficult to get out. I'm going to need to unbolt and remove the cowl to get it out the rest of the way. I've got the RMM and PMM disconnected, the engine is down and forward, and I still don't have clearance. You ms3 people never get to bitch about how hard it is to get a dp or manifold out, ever again, lol.



Done for the night, a solid 7am to 9pm workday (45min lunch). Big thanks to @stevenlapensee; for stopping by to lend a hand and give me someone to talk to besides the voices in my head.

I got the manifold out in about 2 minutes after taking the cowl off. Should have just started with that, it was easy.

Time consuming tasks accomplished today:
1. Manifold removal
2. Brake distribution block relocation / bracket modification
3. Shifter cable bracket relocation / modification
4. Oil feed source / oil filter housing removal and installation (this was the unexpected difficulty)

Mazdaspeed3 guys need to stop bitching about how hard it is to get a down pipe out of their cars:



The cowl comes out easily and give tons of room:


Test fitting the intake:


Done for the night:



Sunday, July 13

Nearly 14 hours straight yesterday was too much, and I was unmotivated and lazy in the morning today. Didn't really get started until noon, then took a long break from 3pm to 6pm, so I didn't get much done today. IC mounting, IC piping finished, modified heater core hoses. IC mounting and heater core hose modification/routing required more trips to Home Depot and the auto parts store than I would have liked. Hose routing was one thing I couldn't be 100% prepared for without tearing into the car.

"Artisan" hand-hammered intercooler brackets for sale... Old-world craftsmanship, only $50 each!

(yes the middle one is supposed to be longer, due to the curvature of the bumper)


IC mounted:


Close up of the mounts I spent too long making. Double shear mounting and stainless hardware:


Heater core hoses viewed from the top. This took a while to find the exact routing I liked best. The "standard" routing for them in a NA FI build didn't work on my car b/c I have a brake line distribution block in the way of the normal path. Yes, they will get a shitload of heat shielding.


Heater core lines from passenger side.


From the drivers side:


More to come tomorrow...

[Hanzodurrr]

This should be interesting

[skeeter149]

Nice updates abd pics,curio us to see how this plays out. Good work man

[Mauro_Penguin]

Good luck to you man! I know you've been on the forums reading for a while, and I always find it amazing when people take on a gargantuan task such as this and actually do it right.

My only single question is how on earth do you intend to tune this thing properly? Are you going standalone, or are you going to use some kind of piggyback ecu? I think car and driver did this, and if I'm not mistaken Matt from Damond Motorsports was trying to get something like this as well but either hardware or tuning got in the way.

[InkedInspector]

Car and Driver did the DISI swap, had to go FMIC so they could close the hood, and had to put the MS3 gauge cluster in the glovebox because the DISI ecu wouldn't work without it. From the last update I recall they never did get it running just right.

I can't wait to see the finished product man, badass minivan ftw.

[Badinfluence]

Is that a painted, ceramic coated, or Titanium coated Manifold?

Good for you, don't let anyone tell you that this isn't a cool idea.

[SofaKingAwesome]

Originally Posted by InkedInspector Car and Driver did the DISI swap, had to go FMIC so they could close the hood, and had to put the MS3 gauge cluster in the glovebox because the DISI ecu wouldn't work without it. From the last update I recall they never did get it running just right. I can't wait to see the finished product man, badass minivan ftw.

This is not a DISI swap. Just a turbo kit.

Mac is having the car tuned with some form of MazdaEdit I believe.

[InkedInspector]

Originally Posted by SofaKingAwesome This is not a DISI swap. Just a turbo kit. Mac is having the car tuned with some form of MazdaEdit I believe.

I realize the OP isn't doing the DISI swap. Penguin referred to the car and driver boss wagon in the post above mine. It was a DISI swap so not relevant to what's being done here. I was making the point he wouldn't be able to look for what C&D did for tuning.

[sac02]

Originally Posted by Mauro_Penguin ... My only single question is how on earth do you intend to tune this thing properly? Are you going standalone, or are you going to use some kind of piggyback ecu? I think car and driver did this, and if I'm not mistaken Matt from Damond Motorsports was trying to get something like this as well but either hardware or tuning got in the way.

Originally Posted by InkedInspector Car and Driver did the DISI swap, had to go FMIC so they could close the hood, and had to put the MS3 gauge cluster in the glovebox because the DISI ecu wouldn't work without it. From the last update I recall they never did get it running just right.

Originally Posted by SofaKingAwesome This is not a DISI swap. Just a turbo kit. Mac is having the car tuned with some form of MazdaEdit I believe.

Correct, the DISI swap is not as easy as it looks on paper. The hardware drops right in easily, but the basic electrical architecture of the two cars are fundamentally different, causing major issues, namely rewiring the ENTIRE car, bumper-to-bumper. The C&D car as you stated, had the DISI gauge cluster in the glovebox, and never ran right. The only other known DISI-into-mz5 swap was done by Autobahn Mazda in Chicago. That car ran well (ran the One Lap of America and did well), but even Mazda technicians working with Mazda Japan engineering support, couldn't get the car to run without the DISI gauge cluster - it was duct taped into place in the mz5 dash.

For tuning, previously many people have done a piggyback unit called the AEM FI/C. But for my project I am having a company called Dynotronics do flash tuning of the ECU. They are an experienced Mazda ECU flash tuning company, though they aren't well known on MSF and in the DISI community because the Cobb AP and ATR dominates that market. They tuned the van in NA form over the past few months previous to this turbo project, and I saw surprisingly good results with it. As Evan said, they use a version of mazdaEdit for tuning. (When you buy a tune from DT, you get a licence for mazdaEdit, which is nice).

Originally Posted by Badinfluence Is that a ... ceramic coated, or Titanium coated Manifold?

Umm, yes? It is what Polydyn (Polymer Dynamics in Houston) calls their "Titanium" level coating, but it is still a ceramic coating. I was on an FSAE team that was sponsored by PolyDyn and I was impressed by the performance of the coatings (you could touch the exhaust of an up-to-temp engine and it barely felt warm), so they were my first thought when it came to coatings. Really reasonable prices, too - having the mainfold, downpipe, and both surfaces of the turbine housing coated was only like 200 bucks.

[Badinfluence]

Originally Posted by sac02 For tuning, previously many people have done a piggyback unit called the AEM FI/C. But for my project I am having a company called Dynotronics do flash tuning of the ECU. They are an experienced Mazda ECU flash tuning company, though they aren't well known on MSF and in the DISI community because the Cobb AP and ATR dominates that market. They tuned the van in NA form over the past few months previous to this turbo project, and I saw surprisingly good results with it. As Evan said, they use a version of mazdaEdit for tuning. (When you buy a tune from DT, you get a licence for mazdaEdit, which is nice). Umm, yes? It is what Polydyn (Polymer Dynamics in Houston) calls their "Titanium" level coating, but it is still a ceramic coating. I was on an FSAE team that was sponsored by PolyDyn and I was impressed by the performance of the coatings (you could touch the exhaust of an up-to-temp engine and it barely felt warm), so they were my first thought when it came to coatings. Really reasonable prices, too - having the mainfold, downpipe, and both surfaces of the turbine housing coated was only like 200 bucks.

Bitchin info man, I wanted to have this done myself when I swap around my RX8. Anything that makes the exhaust more insulated makes it more efficient.

I have had a bitch of a time trying to reach Dynotronics. Have you gotten through lately?

[sac02]

Originally Posted by Badinfluence Bitchin info man, I wanted to have this done myself when I swap around my RX8. Anything that makes the exhaust more insulated makes it more efficient. I have had a bitch of a time trying to reach Dynotronics. Have you gotten through lately?

I've posted this on other forums (not MSF): My top 3 complaints regarding DT are:
1. Communication
2. Communication
3. Turn-around time

My take is that DT is basically a one-man operation, and he is over worked/taking on too much to handle consistently. This contributes to no.3 on the above list , in addition to the fact that every small tuner or speed shop I've ever dealt with has been slow, that seems to be the nature of the game in this business, and yes it bugs me. But if you plan accordingly for the slowness, it can be dealt with.

If you get him on the phone (and I'd say he answers most of the time) he is great to talk to, will talk your ear off about mazdas and tuning them, and you can tell he knows his stuff and likes doing it. But the dude simply doesn't answer email. And he's got so much going on, that while your phone conversation will go well, and the two of you will have a nice logical plan of action for what he/you need to do next, he won't be able to remember it, lol. I always sent a follow up email after phone conversations to put our verbal agreements in writing, but as I said, email is kind of a lost cause. Which bugs me because I'm very much the type of person that likes to have everything in writing.

[dark_matter]

Great Job on the build. I will be following it closely.

Is that a coated OEM speed 3 manifold that you are using for the build?
Any modification on the manifold to make it work on the Mazda 5?

[sac02]

So far I've only had 1.5 hours to work today, I have a lunch date with the wife and a bunch of home improvement projects today.

AN lines are fun. Messy workbench at the moment:


Oil drain line is going to fit well. Nervous about tapping the oil pan, but it must be done...

[SofaKingAwesome]

Looking good!

[m4tic]

What kind of floor jack is that?

[daafisch]

An awesome one that I'm jealous of.

[sac02]

Originally Posted by m4tic What kind of floor jack is that?

Atlas® TD6MR Portable Scissor Lift

Technically it's considered a lift, not a jack. The original plan when I bought this garage, I mean house, was a 2-post. But the deeper I got into it, the more costly the renovations required to the garage to accommodate the 2-post were becoming. So I said "F it", got the scissor lift and called it good for now.

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by sac02 So far I've only had 1.5 hours to work today, I have a lunch date with the wife and a bunch of home improvement projects today. AN lines are fun. Messy workbench at the moment: Oil drain line is going to fit well. Nervous about tapping the oil pan, but it must be done...

I had to retap my oil pan because I was a noob and overtorqued the oil plug.

I'm assuming you're going to completely remove the oil pan? Just take your time since aluminum is pretty unforgiving. Helicoil or straight tap?

[sac02]

Tonight was the part of the project I was most nervous/unsure about, tapping the oil pan for the oil return line.

The oil pan would not come out due to this engine mount bracket. I know you're thinking, "What? I can see that it is almost clear - you could force it out, you big pussy!" Trust me, I couldn't.



Maybe I could have filed down that corner while it was on the car, but instead I chose to use the handy dandy tripod stands to hold up the engine while unbolting the bracket



I marked the location for the return plug while in the car. This was as high as I could go, due to the radius curvature of the pan - I wanted to tap a flat surface.



Ghetto machine shop 101: If you can't clamp the workpiece in the vice, bolt it to a 2x4 and clamp that in your vice.



No going back now.



Unfortunately I didn't finish tapping the hole to install the plug. So, I have a couple tap handles that can accommodate various tap sizes. One of them is 1/4" to 3/4" - should be fine for 1/2" NPT right? Wrong, I forgot pipe sizes are stupid. So I need a bigger tap handle.

Anyway, instead of tapping the hole, I scraped old gasket material off the pan and underside of the block for an hour. Yay.

[shaneski]

Being from Australia never heard of a mazda5, but judging by the pic of it..it will be a fucking sleeper once finished, great job man.

[Skierdood]

Subbed for updates. Cool project!

Also what floor jack/lift is that. Looks awesome!


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[daafisch]

Originally Posted by Skierdood Subbed for updates. Cool project! Also what floor jack/lift is that. Looks awesome! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just look at pictures I see? Post #17

Originally Posted by sac02 Atlas® TD6MR Portable Scissor Lift Technically it's considered a lift, not a jack. The original plan when I bought this garage, I mean house, was a 2-post. But the deeper I got into it, the more costly the renovations required to the garage to accommodate the 2-post were becoming. So I said "F it", got the scissor lift and called it good for now.

[Skierdood]

Doh!! Lol yeah I was scanning through reading the OP's project related posts and flew right past that.


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[Easter Bunny]

How big are the stock axles in the 5 vs the MS3?

[sac02]

As I mentioned, I'm nervous about taping into the oil pan - I've never done it before, and I don't have a TIG to fix any screwups. So I'm proceeding slowly.

When you need a larger tap wrench, but the size you need is $100 at the local Grainger/MSC/Fastenal, you build a makeshift one yourself. It looks unsquare in the pic, but it is nice and square.



The wall thickness of the pan was about 0.20 inches, I decided I didn't like that because it would give less than 3 full threads of engagement with 1/2" NPT (14 TPI). So I'm adding JB Weld to thicken either side of the case. This should give at least 8 threads engagement, which should be plenty. I trust JB Weld for this application, I've used it successfully in more stressful applications.

[sac02]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny How big are the stock axles in the 5 vs the MS3?

Diameter? 25.01mm

No clue what ms3 axles measure.

[iiiicoryiiii]

Subscribed good luck with it. I did something similar to my 1997 Honda Odyssey. I installed a H22a into it and converted it into a 5-speed. It is great the looks you get from unsuspecting fox-body mustang owners getting beat by a minivan!

[sac02]

Tonight's update:

The pan is waiting for the JB Weld to fully cure (24 hrs) before I tap the oil return.

My tuner (Dynotronics) wants there to be zero boost initially. The rod that came with the IWG actuator will only open the WG about 20 degrees when it is at its max extension.

Here's the stock actuator, and the resulting flapper opening. I was worried that this "not full" opening might result in a few PSI of boost pressure.




So I made a longer arm. I had to buy a 1/4-28 tap. :/
Gave it a quick shot of hi-temp rustoleum since it's just mild steel and I didn't want it to insta-rust with the exhaust temps from the turbine, even if it's not boosting. Probably won't help, but the DIY arm won't be on there long anyway.



When I was prepping for the install, I was worried about this brake distribution block:



I was able to modify the bracket, and then mount the distribution block both higher, and on the back side of the bracket. It gives me the clearance I need, but only just - there's only about 20mm clearance behind the WG actuator.



Heatshield on lines that were deemed worthy (I also relocated the cowl drain hose to the drivers side)



I'm also doing a heatshield barrier in addition to wrapping individual lines. I used aluminum foil (two layers, and packing tape in areas to make it durable enough) to make a pattern.



Final attachment of the lines on the turbo, now that I've figured out where all the lines will route and what fittings to use. Turbo will be going in tomorrow.



Every nut and bolt bagged & tagged. I started with a fresh bag of 40 zip-locks; I have 4 left.

[rymanmazda]

I'm curious to know why you decided to stick with an OEM Mazdaspeed Exhaust mani. Why wouldn't you just go with a better flowing EM? Price or because of the OEM heat shield?

[sac02]

Here's an excerpt from a post I made elsewhere, discussing my manifold selection.

Basically it came down to the cost/benefit ratio, and my perception of the QC/durability/reliability.

The ms3 mani is susceptible to cracking, but so is every turbo manifold. There ar "parts snobs" out there who will tell you that the only manifolds worth using are the $900 Full-Race or CP-E, personally I don't buy that. Stock ms3 manifolds cost under $50 (mine was $40). Certainly the Full-Race and CP-E appear to be good items, but if you search enough, you will find that people have had issues with them as well. If you say, “Well I’ve heard a hundred stories of cracked stock manifold, but I’ve only ever heard about one or two issues with a Full-Race unit!” keep in mind that there are probably 1000 stock units in operation for every Full-Race unit out in the field. If the OEM manifold does crack in a couple years, then I’ll be out another $40, plus maybe six hours of my time - but I’ll still be the better better part of a thousand bucks ahead. Going to a T25 flange then necessitates the use of the standard Garrett turbine housing, which in turn requires the use of the Garrett outlet flange, which means custom downpipe. It definitely opens up the world to easy custom manifolds and exhaust, but I specifically didn’t want custom for this build, I wanted off-the-shelf. When it came down to the eBay cast log style manifolds (godspeed) vs. the ms3 OEM unit: I work at an OEM and have respect for the level of design, testing, and QC that an OEM part endures, and I know for a fact the aftermarket (eBay or boutique) pieces aren't getting anything near that, so it was an easy decision. There are people making 400+hp on the stock manifold, it won't be a performance bottleneck.

[msantana101]

Subbed for an interesting turn out


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[mituc]

Originally Posted by sac02 Here's an excerpt from a post I made elsewhere, discussing my manifold selection. Basically it came down to the cost/benefit ratio, and my perception of the QC/durability/reliability.

That, and also the stock MS3 ex mani is good for quite a lot of power which unless you rebuild the 2 liter engine with stronger internals I don't think you'll make. And even if you will rebuild the engine the factory MS3 exhaust manifold should still be good up to a point.

When Car&Driver did that 2.3DISI-T engine swap in a Mazda 5 I was like "hey, mazda, give us some of these!". Now we know we can turbo the 2 liter and WIN in about the same amount. Thanks for doing this to your own car!

Originally Posted by msantana101 Subbed for an interesting turn out

Thread Tools -> Subscribe to this Thread. Quicker, less polluting, less annoying for those who watch the latest updated threads.

[sac02]

Tonight's update might not have a lot of good visual updates, because I've already shown you the money shot of the turbo in the car (even though it was a preliminary mock up to determine clearances and route lines and such). But in actuality, I made really good progress today - actually, WE made good progress - thanks again to @stevenlapensee; for the help.

Heatshield being cut to size and put in place. This was tedious, to put it gently. I'm probably going to replace the standard size washers I used with larger fender washers eventually, though the heatshield is much more durable than I originally thought.




Wire routing for the ECU, MAF, and battery cables. (the perspective on these two pics is with the camera above the battery tray, looking forward and down at the wires) I added a second layer for protective corrugate tubing (first pic) because I was going to clamp the wire harness branch directly to a hard metal surface, and there is the potential for relative motion between the two. The second pic shows the zip ties connecting the wire harness to the tube. Don't laugh at the zip ties - if you've ever been around real race cars, you know they are held together pretty much exclusively by zip ties.




So here is the overall status picture. The manifold and turbo are officially in for the last time, and torqued in place.



OH! Tapping the oil pan went just fine. Sorry no pic of that, I'll get one of the finished product tomorrow.

[OnlyTaurus]

Definitely making progress, man. Hats off to you on this unique idea..

Curious to see final results.

[someguy]

Originally Posted by sac02 The oil pan would not come out due to this engine mount bracket. I know you're thinking, "What? I can see that it is almost clear - you could force it out, you big pussy!" Trust me, I couldn't.

A bit late...but why wouldn't you just pull that bracket? I do it all the time with RMM installs and there's no need to additionally support the engine. I'm not sure if the MZ5 is different but I wouldn't expect the design to be too far off.

Cool build none the less

[sac02]

Exhausted. Pictures. Few words...

psssh... psssh...



Detail of heater hose routing. Boring... Next!



Oil pan oil return fitting.



Oil pan oil return fitting and line.



Down pipe fitted, but not torqued yet.




OK, some words:
I wasted about 1.5 hours tonight re-re-installing the oil pan. I followed the Mazda service manual meticuously (loosen the transaxle bolts so that the bottom of the trans swings away from the engine block, this gives the pan clearance to be installed without having the actual act of installation scraping off all your RTV on the timing cover side).

I moved onto something else, and about an hour later, I was sifting through my remaining bolt baggies, and ran across "Oil pan baffle".

FFFFUUUUUUUUUCCCCCKKKKKKKK.........

I didn't put the baffle back in the pan before installing the pan. Had to take it off again, install the baffle, scrape the "old" (3 hours) gasket off, and go through the whole installation and torquing all over. NOT what I wanted to do at 11pm.

[2.3speed06]

Very intrested in the results of this build.

[maisonvi]

Normally I would give shit about turbo-ing a mazda 5. We have at least one guy around here on FB who keeps saying he will do it but he is like all the others with the regular 3s that say they will just slap a turbo on and be fast. But you seem to be going about it the right way, curious to see where this ends up.

Good job with all the pictures, it keeps people interested and involved.

[Awesomesauce]

Subscribed! Everything looks fairly tidy and well thought out. This has been like a good book that I couldn't stop reading about. Good luck with the rest of the build and I look forward to seeing how this will turn out.

[ztnedman1]

How much power you looking for? Boost? e85?

Looks like you are spending a lot of time to get this done properly. Kudos. Can't wait to see what kind of power it makes.