GTX 2971R

[jdmluvin]

Blew the seals within two months of purchasing the vehicle, now my car's all stanky, I definitely will not be replacing it with another k04. I can't say I'm a fan of the k04's power curve either. May as well make mad power if I'm going to replace that turbine!

[zenit]

Originally Posted by jdmluvin Blew the seals within two months of purchasing the vehicle, now my car's all stanky, I definitely will not be replacing it with another k04. I can't say I'm a fan of the k04's power curve either. May as well make mad power if I'm going to replace that turbine!

Blew seals on a catted exhaust?

The torque that a turbo delivers is dictated by boost control. If you don't like the shape of the curve, you can adjust it.

[flyhigh]

Originally Posted by jdmluvin Blew the seals within two months of purchasing the vehicle, now my car's all stanky, I definitely will not be replacing it with another k04. I can't say I'm a fan of the k04's power curve either. May as well make mad power if I'm going to replace that turbine!

No one has mentioned a K04 in this thread for a reason.
I appreciate that all 3 of your posts have been here, but maybe head over to the new member section and introduce yourself before you start thread jacking a build page?

[jdmluvin]

build page? I was under the impression this was a turbo selection discussion. OP ends with "any thoughts". I was also considering the 29 for a while and thought I would throw my input in.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by mituc At 400 crank HP even with meth injection the ringlands of the factory pistons are on borrowed time. You can run the factory engine until you crack ringlands and rebuild from there, but don't aim for 400hp and hope for the best simply because these pistons cannot handle the heat of 400cp for too long. of course it also depends on how often you ask for those 400hp and for how long.

From what I've read, the drive train loss in a fwd is approximately 10%.

So 400 bhp / 1.10 = 363 whp

My BNR S4 V2 just arrived, and I will be installing it this weekend, along with all the supporting mods.

I don't plan on going higher than 360 whp / 350 wtq, and I don't plan on auto crossing, or circuit racing the car at these power levels. It's mainly just for daily driving, and a few pulls here and there. Based on your experience, how long can I expect my ringlands and or rods to last under these daily driven circumstances?

I run a 175 ml WMI nozzle spraying a 50/50 mix (kicks on at 10 psi), and also run 2 gallons of ITM on my current K04. I'm pretty much running more octane than I need lol.

Thanks

[sheston]

The problem is power is addictive. That's why I had to build my engine early....

I was under the impression that the kiiler of ringlands was heat more than power. Spraying and ITM should help that.

You could do what I did, build the engine then enjoy the power curve of the K04. Or the quick response of smaller turbos. If you're not an emissions fans, you can open up the intake and exhaust and get some decent power at the top end also

[mituc]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 From what I've read, the drive train loss in a fwd is approximately 10%. So 400 bhp / 1.10 = 363 whp

For a Speed3 is around 7% or so, for a speed6 is around 18-19 or so.

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 I don't plan on going higher than 360 whp / 350 wtq, and I don't plan on auto crossing, or circuit racing the car at these power levels. It's mainly just for daily driving, and a few pulls here and there.

No you don't understand. You've got the same disease we have and it's past that stage when you're only playing with new maps, it's in the stage when you spend big money at larger turbos, WMI kits, intake and exhaust parts, and somewhere deep in your mind you're even searching the forums so that you can make the best piston/rods/bearings/head studs choise "when time will come". You're not going to stop until your budget or worse, your wife will start punching you. Believe me, WE ALL KNOW!

When I've got my speed I said "260hp should be enough for anyone!". Then I said that maybe 300 is that number. Then 350. Well, what about just a little bit more? Then, 400 is quite a nice goal, let's see if we can reach it. And that happens until you find the limits of the chassis in the road or race conditions you put your car through and finally figure out a FWD layout will not benefit from any power or torque increase past that, which is around 450hp and like 470lb*ft for street tires.
OR you will not be able to withstand the noise from the engine, transmission or exhaust through all the upgraded mounts and shit. If you have an AWD speed6 it may be even worse: more traction, a heavier chassis which favours more load on the turbo earlier so you can go a bit bigger, and of course more money to throw at transmission bits because of the transfer case and rear diff which need more attention.
So don't come back here later and tell that no one told you so. You've been warned.

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Based on your experience, how long can I expect my ringlands and or rods to last under these daily driven circumstances? I run a 175 ml WMI nozzle spraying a 50/50 mix (kicks on at 10 psi), and also run 2 gallons of ITM on my current K04. I'm pretty much running more octane than I need lol. Thanks

Daily driving affects the ringlands differently. After a while these engines even in stock form get too much soot in the ringlands and on the oil rings and the lubrication and cooling is not ideal in that area. then you go for long cruises on hot summer days with your cruise control set at a speed which results in constant 3700-4000rpm for a long time and your pistons can go "creek!!" in such situations. You'll not even know it most of the time, you will only see oil disappearing from the dipstick. And there's also the LSPI which is quite harmful depending on its magnitude when it occurs and which is also an effect of soot deposits on the cylinders and pistons.
Keeping the rings and ringlands clean will keep you away from this. How - you decide: more frequent oil changes, using oil flush products every 3-4 oil changes, sea foam, whatever.

Then it's the sudden excess of heat which comes with the power. A few long WOT runs above the cooling capabilities of the block/oil/cooling system and again your rings will crack. There's no rule for this, you can crack ringlands in two consecutive 5th gear runs or depending on how hot the engine was already even after one 4th gear run. Of course the ringland contamination plays a major role here as well.

So as long as you keep your engine internals clean and you don't abuse your engine - running the turbo for a long time above its efficiency and make it throw flames back into the engine, running too much timing for what the fuel can handle, or running too few timing which also leads to overheating during the exhaust stroke when the cylinder is supposed to cool down, or asking more torque than what the internals are comfortable with, and so on - you will be fine and that small WMI nozzle will be of a tremendous help in this regard.

If you will want more than like 360-380 crank HP (maybe 400 with a small WMI nozzle) just start buying parts for rebuilding the engine and save yourself from the despair and sorrow when after weeks of searching for possible causes of the oil consumption or even smoke from the exhaust you finally come to the conclusion that the ringlands are gone and you now face a new possibility of them damaging the cylinder walls.

[Jeff23spl]

wise words!

Peoples driving an N/A fwd say that 300 crank hp is already too much for a fwd...but once you get use to it, you replace parts and stuffs on a never ending story. It is addictive!

[zenit]

Originally Posted by Jeff23spl wise words! Peoples driving an N/A fwd say that 300 crank hp is already too much for a fwd...but once you get use to it, you replace parts and stuffs on a never ending story. It is addictive!

...and eventually buy a 6 so that you can keep putting down power.

[flyhigh]

Car is loaded up. Hit the road for Tampa tomorrow. Pre-turbo install vdyno for reference. It's not the best, but a fair assessment.

[flyhigh]

Everything is installed. HUGE THANKS to Sean at the Mazda Medic Car Club in Hudson, FL. He knows our cars inside and out. I recommend him highly. There were a couple hiccups during the install, but he worked tirelessly and relentlessly to get it done in time. The pictures are up on his facebook page.

Here is a VDyno of the first WOT runs on the base 93 octane map.

[mituc]

Maybe this will help others decide, especially those who are afraid of the laggier big turbos. A few days ago I moved from a catted UR v1 downpipe to a catted UR v3. Holey spool!
Now I have a pretty decent boost even at 3000rpm, which made the sudden power surge around 3500-3600 to go away so less boost/load corrections when going WOT below like 3200rpm. I even got a load cut around 2800rpm at some point...

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by flyhigh Everything is installed. HUGE THANKS to Sean at the Mazda Medic Car Club in Hudson, FL. He knows our cars inside and out. I recommend him highly. There were a couple hiccups during the install, but he worked tirelessly and relentlessly to get it done in time. The pictures are up on his facebook page. Here is a VDyno of the first WOT runs on the base 93 octane map.

That's a lot of boost and torque for a base map.

[shaneski]

Strange looking curves all round..the big AFR spike then boost and power drop.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by flyhigh Everything is installed. HUGE THANKS to Sean at the Mazda Medic Car Club in Hudson, FL. He knows our cars inside and out. I recommend him highly. There were a couple hiccups during the install, but he worked tirelessly and relentlessly to get it done in time. The pictures are up on his facebook page. Here is a VDyno of the first WOT runs on the base 93 octane map.

Something is extremely wrong with your tune.

[mituc]

It's still a base tune guys... give him some time.

[flyhigh]

Okay, here is a few runs on the first iteration of the tune on 93 octane only. Keep in mind it was 90*F+. Spool is really slow at this point. 2nd iteration is loaded up and I'll be taking more logs in the next couple of days. Logs and vdyno attached for anyone who cares to look.

[mituc]

It doesn't look bad at all so far. Even with 110+F BATs I think youo can still increase the timing a bit as well as boost. But one at a time. At 6000rpm you should aim for 330-335g/s of air (that's load 2.08-2.1 or so) and probably one more degree of timing.
But do take small steps and see how everything reacts to each change.

[andale927]

Originally Posted by flyhigh Okay, here is a few runs on the first iteration of the tune on 93 octane only. Keep in mind it was 90*F+. Spool is really slow at this point. 2nd iteration is loaded up and I'll be taking more logs in the next couple of days. Logs and vdyno attached for anyone who cares to look.

Any V dyno updates?

[flyhigh]

Sorry for the delay, but I ran in to a few issues (slow spool, pre-load, waste gate, and now bald tires). I just did some runs on the 10th iteration of the 93 octane tune and should be moving on to 93+ meth shortly. I'll try to post up the latest runs today.

[andale927]

Yup, I had pretty much all of those issues as well haha.

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[flyhigh]

Even with the tire rotation I'm getting a lot of wheel spin between 3500-4500 RPM so the Vdyno is waaaayyyy off (600+ WHP). I got one decent run without wheel spin and it shows 300 WHP and 361 lbft at 25 lbs of boost. I have to get some wider wheels and new rubber before I can move forward. Thinking about getting 18x8.5 Rota SVN - Hyper Black(5x114.3/e48/67.1) + some super sports or conti's. I have a WTB thread out there, but figured I'd put it here too.

Once I get some grip I'll post up some new logs/dyno

[VoodooJef]

FWIW, some other folks and myself have discovered conclusively that the newest version of vdyno is not reading properly. Identical logs, identical settings, and we`re seeing discrepancies upward of 45hp. Vdyno is a great COMPARING tool, not a good MEASURING tool.

[PearlySpeed]

Discrepancies as in VDyno reading low?

[VoodooJef]

Originally Posted by PearlySpeed Discrepancies as in VDyno reading low?

yes. On my own car with version 1.4.0 it was within 2% of the true roller number. Ran a friends` log and got 331, but the exact same log with the exact same settings on a newer version only got him 305. Either the math has changed or the built in settings have changed.

[flyhigh]

Looks like the wheel spin may actually be the clutch slipping? Will do some testing with Stratified and find out.

Also, the WMI isn't working properly and I'm told by the manufacturer it must be wired up incorrectly. It may be a while before that gets fixed so I'll be going directly to E30 first, that is of course after getting new wheels, tires, and possibly a new clutch.

[mituc]

Wheel spin: OBD vehicle speed and engine RPM are in sync
Clutch slip: OBD vehicle speed will be lower than it should be at that given RPM.

If the log is in the same gear then make a new column with a report between speed and RPM and see how it varies. The values should not be constant but not vary too much.

[flyhigh]

My tuner did this exactly and the corresponding graph shows the RPM spike (more like a bubble) between 3800 and 4800 while vehicle speed increase remained consistent.

I am now searching for the perfect replacement clutch.

The local Mazda mechanic suggested a OEM disc with a SPEC clutch cover. Edge suggested the ACT 6 puck kit or the South bend kit. I'll continue my research, but would be grateful for any one's actual personal experience they'd like to share.

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[ChaunceyM]

@MD1032; has been involved in a few clutch replacements and raves about the ACT 6 puck. I've read many other threads here and the consensus seems to be all thumbs-up on the ACT.
I'll let him share his thorough explanation if he wants. But when my clutch finally dies that's really the only thing I'm even looking at.

[shaneski]

My South bend stage 3 enduro has been faultless since 2014, daily driven, and run MH slicks at the track for 11 sec 1/4. it still pretty much feels near new the way it engages.

[mituc]

I had the Spec Stage2+ with a factory FW, it was pretty on-off. It's a good clutch if you're shifting fast and drive spiritedly most of the time, but once you enter some bumper to bumper city traffic it requires quite a lot of time to get right (you will eventually).

Then I moved to a reworked factory disk and pressure plate, worked just fine until I spun the dual-mass factory flywheel. Those 475lb*ft of torque were not easy for a factory FW designed to hold only about 320-350.

Now I have the SouthBend stage3 enduro and it is a lot more progressive. However the stage3 enduro may be a bit too heavy. I was a cyclist so I don't have a problem with it, but I feel the pain of anyone else trying to drive my car, including my wife. It got better over time (in the first 1k miles it was a real pain), but it's still a relatively heavy clutch (I even broke the clutch pedal master cylinder 200 miles after installing it).

So go with a Southbend stage3 enduro or just street (for a marginally less peak torque that it can hold compared to the enduro it's going to be a lot easier on your left foot and a lot more streetable).
The single mass FW chatter is not bad, sometimes when you're in the car idling or driving at low speeds (like parking lot speeds) you'll freak out thinking that you have a bad main bearing or a bent rod but you'll get in use to it pretty quickly.

[flyhigh]

The SB stage 3 is how I've been leaning over the last couple of days. I've read a few too may stories about the short-ish life span of the ACT. I also read somewhere that if your going to go with the SB stage 3, you might as well go with the endurance version ($200 difference). I'm a little more hesitant now with your description and may well just go with the street version. Hopefully I'll make a decision before the clutch goes out.

[shaneski]

Originally Posted by flyhigh The SB stage 3 is how I've been leaning over the last couple of days. I've read a few too may stories about the short-ish life span of the ACT. I also read somewhere that if your going to go with the SB stage 3, you might as well go with the endurance version ($200 difference). I'm a little more hesitant now with your description and may well just go with the street version. Hopefully I'll make a decision before the clutch goes out.

I'm pretty sure the street and enduro all use the same pressure plate for pedal feel, it's just the clutch material is different. After a week of daily driving it feels normal, the human body adapts similar to weight training, weights that were heavy at first feel like nothing not long after.

I had chatter when it had the JBR tranny mount. With the Damond that's now in it it's pretty much silent even with Aircon switched on.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by shaneski I'm pretty sure the street and enduro all use the same pressure plate for pedal feel, it's just the clutch material is different.

Oh really... I thought the PP is different as well, also Sachs but a different part#. In this case it makes no sense not to go for the enduro, it's very progressive even compared to the OEM clutch.

The stage2 may have a torque spec a bit too low for a GTX29/30 and built motor. On a factory engine it is ok as you can't throw too much torque at it anyway.

[flyhigh]

The plan was to not build the engine, but we all know how that story ends.

[flyhigh]

SB stg 3 endurance will be installed next Wednesday. After the break in period and the 93 tune is complete with no slipping issues, I'll post up some logs/vdyno.

[flyhigh]

UPDATE-
HPFP relief valve went out, so had to replace that. $200 part from Mazda.
In the mean time the clutch has been broken in and is griping like a champ. I really like how it catches right off the floor. Pedal feel is stiff, but no where near as bad as most say.
New red stuff pads and centric rotors are pretty well bedded in. This should be the end of the 93 oct portion of this tune. Hope to be on E this week. Logs and V-dyno of today's WOT pulls attached for those keeping track.

[andale927]

Yeah that definitely looks to be the end of 93 haha, the KR enrichment is making your afr look crazy.

I found and attached an older version of V-dyno if you want to give it a try with those same logs to see the difference.

Random question, but how many miles have your centric rotors been lasting? I seem to need to purchase a pair every 2-3k miles which is insane. Maybe I'm just too abusive.

[mituc]

Around 5.5s for 60-100 is definitely on par with the power figures you've got, considering the ambient temps as well, ofc.

Next step: add meth.

[flyhigh]

What kind of pads are you using? I know "Track-use only" pads can run through rotors fairly quickly, but daaaaamn! My OEM rotors lasted 40k miles and I hope the Centrics will do better. I'm running the red stuffs because DD. I'm definitely going to me monitoring more closely now with that piece of info.