GTX2867R build

[SarcasticOne]

Originally Posted by iwabo All i really want to know is if it's actually a reasonable idea to buy a BT for a stock block, or am i just better off sticking with k04+meth?

There has been plenty of cars that have run BT + e85 or meth for years and been reliable, it's all about the tune.

[mituc]

K04 + meth can get you up to 350bhp no problem. However, the factory block will hate the fast response of the K04 especially when adding meth, and also because of the super fast response you will get a lot of wheel spin.

This is just my opinion, but a factory block should be paired with a GTX28 (2871 I guess will work best) or maybe a GTX3071.

The larger turbos like the GTX 3071/3076 start shining at higher revs. So with a GTX3076 you get a fully usable rev range between like 4000 and 7500rpm (or even more).
Now, with the factory block you will not be able to rev too high safely, consistently and reliably because the pistons and rods are heavy, the rod bolts aren't particularly sized (in therms of strength) to endure that force for too long or for too many times, and so on. So you will have to leave the rev limit to the factory setting to be safe, say about 6700rpm, and you will probably shift at 6300-6500rpm when going for it because there's that mental limit everyone has imposed just to avoid loosing time by hitting the rev limiter. that leaves you with a 2500rpm range to play with.

With a GTX3071 you will have 200-500 more RPMs to play with and those will be lower in the range, where it matters for a DD.

With a GTX2871 or a 2867 that limit will drop even more and will favour a faster response as well, but the lower you go (3076-> 3071 -> 3067 -> 2976 -> 2971 -> 2871 -> 2867) the faster the response will be and there's also a lower limit you should not cross with a larger turbo because high boost at low revs can lead to an oily divorce between the rods and the rest of the block.

Somebody above was saying something like "I'd rather prefer to tune the response down rather than not having it available and having to wait for it". if we're picking the 3300-3500rpm point for that, the GTX2867 and GTX3071 will be right on each side of that point.

I'm not sure how far the 3076 will be and to be honest right now I have a debate with myself if I should move from the 3071 to 3076, but i have a built engine and shooting for a 7350-7500rpm rev limit. On a stock block things are different.

My advice is to stay with the GTX28/BNR S3 turbos, GTX3071 tops. All these turbos are able to flow up top more than what the factory block can handle for a long period of time reliably (even though the S3 may struggle a bit above 6500rpm, but with the help of meth and considering that until 6700rpm there isn't much left you'll be good).

Also a very good move would be to hire an e-tuner, stick with him, and also ask for advice regarding the turbo which he will later tune for you.

[GabbyChaves]

Originally Posted by iwabo All i really want to know is if it's actually a reasonable idea to buy a BT for a stock block, or am i just better off sticking with k04+meth?

A good reliable tune on the 2867 or 3071 will give you plenty peace of mind with your car.
Don't push to much torque down low and use the meth/water as added safety.

I'm making about 340whp on the 2867 on pump gas not meth at 19psi and 8* @6k
And that's a lot of fun for this car. Off course you can get close to 400whp if you tune for meth but that will obviously stress the stock block more.
Here's a good thread on what some guys are pushing on stock block. big turbo stock block thread

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by iwabo All i really want to know is if it's actually a reasonable idea to buy a BT for a stock block, or am i just better off sticking with k04+meth?

K04 and meth/eth. Best bang for buck in my opinion. If I were to do it again, that's what I'd do. I still like my 3076 though.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by iwabo All i really want to know is if it's actually a reasonable idea to buy a BT for a stock block, or am i just better off sticking with k04+meth?

I would think better for a few reasons:

1) less load at low rpm's keeps stock rods happy as the larger turbo takes more time to spool
2) larger turbo will not have to work nearly as hard to make the same power as a maxed out k04, which leads to lower boost air temperatures
4) less chances of having smoking turbo issues
5) pump gas can be pushed further on a bigger turbo due to the cooler air charge
6) Not as much ignition advance is required to make happy power
7) there's always the choice to make more power

anything else?...

[Omega]

Depends on how you drive, if you're doing some pulls here and there 400whp/380wtq is about the upper limit for the block... If you're tracking you need to dial it back a good bit, when the power gets too great the rings expand too much, butt then break the ringlands (I've had this happen). Unfortunately the ring gaps are very tight from the factory.

If you drive it like you stole it all the time not likely, but other people have been very successful in making big turbos last a long time on a stock block (read not indefinitely you will still shorten the life of the motor). The cooler the combustion charge and BAT the better (hence the alcohol suggestions) for the stock motor.

And with this entire GTX3076 vs 3071 vs 2867 I say fuck it go full retard and get an EFR power of a 3076 with the spool of a K04

On a serious note, have you considered a BNRS4? It's basically a GTX3076 with a smaler .AR - IIRC people were hitting 20psi ~3200-3400 RPM's which is pretty good. It's a good mix for goals for top end power while keeping spool at a great price.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by MD1032 Eh. I ran 20° at 6500 and 22.5° at 7000 on mine with the K04 at 100% WGDC on a 2:10 ITM mix...took the car to the track and hit 120+ MPH on the front straight multiple times on that tune. ECT's were climbing and brakes were fading during my 30 minute sessions (mostly due to my shitty driving)...engine's still perfectly fine. The K04 doesn't flow much air, even in full "hairdryer" mode, it's not putting nearly the load on your engine at the higher RPM's that even a 2867 could at full bore. On the stock turbo you can really just set it to 100% WGDC in most of the higher RPM's and then taper it down as needed to keep torque within what the stock rods can do in the lower RPM's, then use a dyno to dial in MBT. On your typical E30-ish mix, you're never going to see knock. I have yet to experience a single GT/GTX30 turbo that could push me back in my seat at 3000 RPM's. My BNR makes 20 psi at 3000 RPM's but it's definitely not pushing anyone back in their seat until a few hundred RPM's later. Make no mistake, the larger you go, you're going to get more lag. And if you autocross your car at all, you're going to hate it. I like the idea of the 2867 and 3067/3076 more than I like the price. At the end of the day you can pay <$1200 for a BNR that can do the same shit. That's the route I chose. There's a reason they're popular.

Thanks for the advice

The main reason I don't wanna advance timing much more, is because I see too much timing as another way of overheating the pistons, and causing ring land issues. I'm not saying that advanced timing is wrong. Timing does indeed make power... or should I say optimizes power output? Boost makes power.

I just think that running timing closer to MBT unnecessarily increases the time period that the pistons and cylinder walls are exposed to combustion even if no knock is present, which causes coolant temps to rise, and exhaust gas temps to decrease. The engine becomes a heat sponge lol, and there have been many cases of cracked ring lands on stock blocks in over temperature situations with conservative tunes posted on this forum.

Since I have a stock block, I'd rather run less timing, and let a bigger turbo do the work.

This is just a theory but although the mechanical angle of the crank isn't as optimized with less timing, the force from higher boost is greater which could counteract a loss in power. This tuning philosophy could reduce the amount of heat absorbed by the pistons and cylinder walls while keeping power output constant if not greater depending on boost pressure.

I'd prefer to run the least amount of timing to reach my power goals unless my turbo cannot provide the required airflow, in which case timing gets added in lol. I like to try and keep heat out of the engine...hence a wmi kit and 2 gallons of in tank meth.

I think of Boost vs Timing like riding a bike...

Timing, is the moment you push down as the pedal comes around. Optimum timing would be pushing down just as the pedal passes the top, which would give the best mechanical leverage to transfer rotational force to the ground. Boost, is the force. The more boost, the more force. Timing just harnesses that force.

Btw, would you happen to know approximately how much boost the K04 can run at higher rpm's before airflow plateaus?

Thanks.

[MD1032]

...right, I understand all that shit. And boost doesn't make power. Airflow in combination with optimized ignition timing makes power.

The engine can handle whatever timing you want to throw at it on the K04 in my experience, assuming you have sufficient knock resistance. Feel free to do whatever makes you feel best. It's your engine. I just hate people who retard the shit out of the timing in the top end on a K04 like they're tuning a big turbo when it's not necessary. You can feel the power drop off when you hit about 5500-6000 RPM's in those cars, which is where my car would still be accelerating when I had the K04.

For every idiot that manages to blow one of these engines on a 275 whp pump gas tune on a K04, there's someone running over 400 whp on the stock block and having no issues. Nishan I know at one point ran 500 whp on a stock bottom end in his car. Not everything is as fragile as it appears.

In the higher RPM's, the K04 is going to top out at about 19 psi under ideal conditions, less on most days. Airflow-wise, the highest I ever saw was 312 g/s on a very cold day (using a known good MAF cal curve). I had the stock CBE while on the K04, so higher should be possible.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by MD1032 In the higher RPM's, the K04 is going to top out at about 19 psi under ideal conditions, less on most days. Airflow-wise, the highest I ever saw was 312 g/s on a very cold day (using a known good MAF cal curve). I had the stock CBE while on the K04, so higher should be possible.

Very good info! Thanks. How much airflow do you see with the bnr s3, and what's your injector duty cycle at?

Is there a consensus on the maximum airflow the stock fuel system can handle safely without aux fueling?

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by mituc For a DD the 3076 may be a bit too laggy. I have the GTX3071 and I feel it's at the limit of usability in therms of response at low RPM (which is required for a DD).

It's all about the setup. I daily my S362 (same size as gt3582) ms6 and love it. I get better mpgs because I spend less time in boost and it's still spooled a little after 3500. If you need faster response than that then downshift.



Spool differences between a 3076 and 3071 are pretty minimal, I wouldn't even consider a 3071 if I was looking at 30r turbos. The largest factor for spool time is turbine mass and they both use the same turbine wheel. The only reason to step down in compressor size is if you're running into surge issues, which doesn't happen on our engine unless it's paired with a really responsive setup.

Something else I'm going to throw out there. Putting a rod through the side of the block is a torque failure mode, losing a ringland on your piston would be a heat failure mode. As long as you limit torque and aren't pushing super hot air into the engine, the stock engine can hold a good amount more power than what people usually say. The key is keeping torque under a certain point (let HP rise with RPM) and keep the charge air cool (don't push a small turbo hard) and you can make good power safely.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Very good info! Thanks. How much airflow do you see with the bnr s3, and what's your injector duty cycle at?

I've actually never finished a tune on the BNR for a variety of reasons (right now needs repair in fact). It seems to flow about 365 g/s on most days (at ~75% WGDC) which is enough to easily reach 370 whp. I think it can probably flow more once I finally get my meth installed and I can command higher boost.

IDC's vary depending on my mix. I usually try to mix my methanol/E85 such that they top out at around 100% IDC since above 110% is where my car will start to break up. Others prefer to keep IDC's lower. I like to run the highest mix I possibly can so I have plenty of knock headroom, for me this is about a 2:10 methanol:E10 or 1:2 E85:E10 (~E33) mix. Most people with this turbo like to sit in the E27-29-ish vicinity.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by MD1032 I've actually never finished a tune on the BNR for a variety of reasons (right now needs repair in fact). It seems to flow about 365 g/s on most days (at ~75% WGDC) which is enough to easily reach 370 whp. I think it can probably flow more once I finally get my meth installed and I can command higher boost. IDC's vary depending on my mix. I usually try to mix my methanol/E85 such that they top out at around 100% IDC since above 110% is where my car will start to break up. Others prefer to keep IDC's lower. I like to run the highest mix I possibly can so I have plenty of knock headroom, for me this is about a 2:10 methanol:E10 or 1:2 E85:E10 (~E33) mix. Most people with this turbo like to sit in the E27-29-ish vicinity.

On pump gas 93OCT/98RON and a relatively rich AFR around 10.7-ish at 355-360g/s of air you're at 100%IDC or more anywhere above 6100-6200rpm.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by mituc On pump gas 93OCT/98RON and a relatively rich AFR around 10.7-ish at 355-360g/s of air you're at 100%IDC or more anywhere above 6100-6200rpm.

I have seen that before when I was deliberately targeting rich AFR's to test my HPFP, however I never target that rich of an AFR under normal circumstances...usually 11.5:1. Honestly on my pump gas tune I doubt it even exceeds 18 psi...barely cracks 85% IDC's. I think pump gas is basically the devil and no longer tune it for power. Hence my comment in my first post in this thread.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by MD1032 I've actually never finished a tune on the BNR for a variety of reasons (right now needs repair in fact).

Thanks. Why does it need repairs?

[GabbyChaves]

I know the original question was on the bnr s3 but I think my gtx2867 is comparable and I'm seeing on pump gas at 19psi around 335-340 g/s and 80-83% IDC
And that goes down to about 70-75%% IDC if I spray thru equivalent of D07 on that same tune with 80/20 mix.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Thanks. Why does it need repairs?

Turns out I have one of the first 48 BNR S3 V2's, all of which were recalled for an issue with the wastegate (arm gets stuck in hotside, won't open all the way), and the previous owner of my turbo didn't have it done. It is an easy fix, but unfortunately requires removing the turbo and mailing it to Bryan. This has the effect of causing variable boost response. The compressor housing is plumbed directly to the wastegate right now but boost pressure is varying between 10 and 25 psi. Normally it would be about 16 on spring pressure.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by MD1032 Turns out I have one of the first 48 BNR S3 V2's, all of which were recalled for an issue with the wastegate (arm gets stuck in hotside, won't open all the way), and the previous owner of my turbo didn't have it done. It is an easy fix, but unfortunately requires removing the turbo and mailing it to Bryan. This has the effect of causing variable boost response. The compressor housing is plumbed directly to the wastegate right now but boost pressure is varying between 10 and 25 psi. Normally it would be about 16 on spring pressure.

Thanks man sorry to hear about that. At least theres a fix. I hope the s4 is flawless when I get it.

[iwabo]

I think i would have an easier time deciding what to name my first son than what turbo to put on my car :/ theirs so much different answers on why and why not to go with this and with that. Whats safe and what isn't safe it's like everything i read is pulling in different directions.2867 is to small, 3076 is to large, stock turbo is faster than both if tuned properly and on e85.... like the fuck is this?

[Code Monkey]

^ GTX2971

[jmullins210]

It really depends what your final hp your trying to receive down the road. If it is right below 600hp then definitly go for GTX3076R. I was in your same boat about deciding to go big or not. If you feel you will be driving the car for another 100k-120k, then go with the GTX3076R and when your engine gives out rebuild it and you should be at your 600hp. If you want as DD then go for the GTX3071R, quick spool and responsive. With the GTX3071R you might get up to 475-525hp with built engine.

[iwabo]

Originally Posted by jmullins210 It really depends what your final hp your trying to receive down the road. If it is right below 600hp then definitly go for GTX3076R. I was in your same boat about deciding to go big or not. If you feel you will be driving the car for another 100k-120k, then go with the GTX3076R and when your engine gives out rebuild it and you should be at your 600hp. If you want as DD then go for the GTX3071R, quick spool and responsive. With the GTX3071R you might get up to 475-525hp with built engine.

that's the thing, i don't plan on ever building the motor and as far as HP go's i just want something that will hang with 5.0's, 335's etc etc..

[mituc]

Originally Posted by iwabo that's the thing, i don't plan on ever building the motor and as far as HP go's i just want something that will hang with 5.0's, 335's etc etc..

Then the factory K04 + meth will do. However, a GT28 turbo will be a lot better in this regard and still preserve a good amount of the factory turbo response feel.

[GabbyChaves]

I agree the 28 series will maintain k04 like drivability plus being able to have 330ish whp on 93 pump gas. That's pretty much right where I'm at with the gtx2867

[Mazdazilla6]

Fuck a K04. Torque down low is what throws rods and high cylinder temps from pushing it hard kill pistons. The K04 does both of those things. Go for area under the curve, don't look at the paper numbers.

If you don't want to build your engine I think you'd be very happy with either an S3/4, or a GTX2867/2971. You can still get very good response out of them and they will keep pulling until redline instead of going flaccid once you hit 5k.

[MD1032]

Pretty much. If you want to hang with 5.0's you need at least an S3 +meth. All of the turbos Mazdazilla6 mentioned would be perfectly fine.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[impossible]

k04 and meth. You're too indecisive and not knowledgeable enough to run around with 400whp+ BT MS3 tbh... RIP ringlands

I'm really just trying to scare your misinformed and ill-educated butt away from BT but you sound more like the average BNR S3 v2 guy, I would cancel the GTX order and save yourself some bucks

[iwabo]

Originally Posted by impossible k04 and meth. You're too indecisive and not knowledgeable enough to run around with 400whp+ BT MS3 tbh... RIP ringlands I'm really just trying to scare your misinformed and ill-educated butt away from BT but you sound more like the average BNR S3 v2 guy, I would cancel the GTX order and save yourself some bucks

I know enough to not WOT at low rpm, get a conservative tune from justin@freektune and spray meth to keep it safe.. As far as knowledge go's what am i missing?

[iwabo]

Well boys after a lot of procrastination i finally bought a gtx2867r from drogahnus, unfortunately the thread needs a new title haha and i cant for the life of me figure out how to change it . Any input regarding my purchase would be amazing, I'm slowly learning about my mazda everyday. turbo has 20k miles on it.

[GabbyChaves]

Originally Posted by iwabo Well boys after a lot of procrastination i finally bought a gtx2867r from drogahnus, unfortunately the thread needs a new title haha and i cant for the life of me figure out how to change it . Any input regarding my purchase would be amazing, I'm slowly learning about my mazda everyday. turbo has 20k miles on it.

Good stuff, I love mine and I'm sure you will too.
I wrote a build thread on mine yesterday and put up my latest vdyno so you can have an idea of power at that boost

[MS3Shadow]

Originally Posted by iwabo Well boys after a lot of procrastination i finally bought a gtx2867r from drogahnus, unfortunately the thread needs a new title haha and i cant for the life of me figure out how to change it . Any input regarding my purchase would be amazing, I'm slowly learning about my mazda everyday. turbo has 20k miles on it.

soo back to the original title?

[iwabo]

Originally Posted by MS3Shadow soo back to the original title?

lol im so sorry but yes.

Originally Posted by GabbyChaves Good stuff, I love mine and I'm sure you will too. I wrote a build thread on mine yesterday and put up my latest vdyno so you can have an idea of power at that boost

good looks i was actually just reading ur post, im doing pretty much the same thing minus the ewg

[iwabo]

I've been in contact with edgeautosports and i must say there costumer support is on point. But they where unsure if my intake will match up with there 3" coupler or tip maybe somone on here will know? I have this Cold Air Intake Kits | Mazdaspeed 3 Cold Air Intake . I'm also going with a guairdian angel for the map sensor is this recommended or nah? Any feed back is appreciated.

[iwabo]

edit

I've also been looking to buy an egr kit and stumbled across a thread that you cant just unplug the the resirculation unit on the car, can anyone confirm this is just as effective?

[shaneski]

Originally Posted by iwabo I've been in contact with edgeautosports and i must say there costumer support is on point. But they where unsure if my intake will match up with there 3" coupler or tip maybe somone on here will know? I have this Cold Air Intake Kits | Mazdaspeed 3 Cold Air Intake . I'm also going with a guairdian angel for the map sensor is this recommended or nah? Any feed back is appreciated.

Sell that intake and get a 3 inch.

[AveryPlaysBass]

Have you ever considered the CS turbo? That is slightly cheaper and would still be a solid replacement for the K04 wouldnt it be?

[iwabo]

Originally Posted by AveryPlaysBass Have you ever considered the CS turbo? That is slightly cheaper and would still be a solid replacement for the K04 wouldnt it be?

I just got my gtx2867r in today, it only cost me 800$

[mituc]

used?! Hmm... ok.

[iwabo]

Originally Posted by mituc used?! Hmm... ok.

yeah theirs no play and the fins look decent, the person i bought it from said it only has about 20k miles on it.

[RalliartRsX]

..........Should have bought an EFR

[CJ Speed6]

not a bad price. I just got a BNR S3 with about 25k miles for $575.