Papasmurf Round #2

[atvfreek]

The only time I've seen scoring at the tops of the piston were from a bent rod.

The warped ring land was the same thing that will saw in his motor. That looks like excessive heat from possibly pre ignition.

How much meth were you running before you switched to the jmf mani.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by atvfreek The only time I've seen scoring at the tops of the piston were from a bent rod. The warped ring land was the same thing that will saw in his motor. That looks like excessive heat from possibly pre ignition. How much meth were you running before you switched to the jmf mani.

Pre-ignition makes sense, im sure with no type of oil cooling it was pretty hot.

I was running a single D10 nozzle before port injection.

[Lex]

Looks like a lubrication and cooling issue in this motor. Did you have low oil pressure? How did the plugs look? The heat damage on the pistons damaged the bores.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Lex Looks like a lubrication and cooling issue in this motor. Did you have low oil pressure? How did the plugs look? The head damage on the pistons damaged the bores.

plugs looked fine besides having some oil on them from blow by.


I was not running an oil pressure gauge unfortunately, so I would not know the oil pressure.

[Voltwings]

What type of ECT's do you high horsepower guys see during a pull? Multiple 3rd-5th's on meet nights would often see my temps start climbing into the 220+ range by the end of a run


Edit: usually 80-90+* ambients.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Voltwings What type of ECT's do you high horsepower guys see during a pull? Multiple 3rd-5th's on meet nights would often see my temps start climbing into the 220+ range by the end of a run Edit: usually 80-90+* ambients.

The same, 220ish +


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[atvfreek]

Can you take a pic of the bottom side if the pistons where the squirter was hitting.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Can you take a pic of the bottom side if the pistons where the squirter was hitting.

The bottom side of the pistons didn't have anything really noticeable, one piston had a very tiny score but my camera couldn't focus on it, these are the best pics of the squirters, I'm sure it's my fault not bending them enough, even though we tested by turning the crank after building.

These are the best pictures I could get of the squirters, they all look the same.







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[jmhinkle]

That wouldn't have caused an oiling issue though. That was just a side clearance issue, not vertical. I thought they were chopped off when you said they were getting hit. The pics look like the pistons were just too sloppy in the bores for some reason.

[timjs]

Wow, immediately I think that those pistons got incredibly hot.

Unless I missed it, what was the piston to wall clearance?

[Mazdazilla6]

How were your clearances when you put the pistons in? Ring gaps?

Did you overbore the block?

[PapaSmurf]

On my receipt from my Machinist it doesn't say the piston to wall clearance but I do know he used the wiseco street/turbo specs for the rings. I didn't touch any of that stuff. It's the same machinist Dustin/Joel have taken their engines too

The block was bored .020 over because the stock cylinders were oval for some reason.


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[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf On my receipt from my Machinist it doesn't say the piston to wall clearance but I do know he used the wiseco street/turbo specs for the rings. I didn't touch any of that stuff. It's the same machinist Dustin/Joel have taken their engines too The block was bored .020 over because the stock cylinders were oval for some reason. Sent from your girlfriends tapabedroom

Do you know if your machinist used a deck plate?

From what it looks like to me the clearances are too high. I know some people suggested heat but if you look at the pictures where the scratches are, they are perpendicular to where the piston is able to rotate on the wrist pin so if the clearances are too high they can rotate far enough to hit the cylinder wall. I think if it were heat being the issue there would be scratches in other places besides on one side of the wall.

[PapaSmurf]

He did use a deck plate, the one thing I did notice though, are the rods suppose to move on the wrist pins? Like have slack?

See pictures for details.

As you can see, same piston but the rod can slide on the wrist pin. I would think they would, but I may be mistaken.





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[Tokay444]

Yes

[timjs]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf He did use a deck plate, the one thing I did notice though, are the rods suppose to move on the wrist pins? Like have slack? See pictures for details. As you can see, same piston but the rod can slide on the wrist pin. I would think they would, but I may be mistaken. Sent from your girlfriends tapabedroom

Those are floating wrist pins. A pressed pin design would not move this way.

[jmhinkle]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf On my receipt from my Machinist it doesn't say the piston to wall clearance but I do know he used the wiseco street/turbo specs for the rings. I didn't touch any of that stuff. It's the same machinist Dustin/Joel have taken their engines too The block was bored .020 over because the stock cylinders were oval for some reason. Sent from your girlfriends tapabedroom

Thinking back on how your cylinders were oval, I wonder if they were at the upper limit of usable to where even with .020 it was just within spec and quickly went out after running a little while. Still seems odd that your block was like that. The one I used didn't need a bore, but I had already bought the pistons so I had it done. Hey @djuosnteisn; was my old block in need of a bore or were the cylinders oval?

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 Do you know if your machinist used a deck plate? From what it looks like to me the clearances are too high. I know some people suggested heat but if you look at the pictures where the scratches are, they are perpendicular to where the piston is able to rotate on the wrist pin so if the clearances are too high they can rotate far enough to hit the cylinder wall. I think if it were heat being the issue there would be scratches in other places besides on one side of the wall.

He did use a deck plate. He is the only shop in New Mexico with one. Dustin bought it. This is also my line of thinking though. The damage doesn't look like heat to me it looks like wear from slop that eventually caused the damage that may show signs of hotspots from being damaged. Since the pistons were hitting the squirters from the side, maybe they were being loaded at a funky angle at BDC and started the upstroke in a compromised position leading to the wear pattern. I'm the only one with different pistons and they seemed quite tight in the bores when I built it, but I still had to bend my squirters and if they moved after getting hot it might have cause an issue later on. I will most likely be pulling the oil pan this weekend to give things a good look-see from the bottom end and make sure everything is kosher in there. I need to change oil so now would be a good time to plan it.

[jmhinkle]

@PapaSmurf; do you have a picture of the wear on the pistons where the oil squirters were hitting? I know there is a fine line to get them in the sweet spot of clearing a few areas of the piston.

[atvfreek]

After thinking about it more over the weekend, I was thinking along the same lines as Joel. That possibly the piston just touching the squirter at BDC that it would rock the piston slightly and the have it rock into a misaligned position. At BDC the skirt goes just below the bottom of the piston bore. The bottom of the skirt is also the widest part of the piston in the OTS wisecos which would mean PWC would actually be larger once the piston is at BDC.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle @PapaSmurf; do you have a picture of the wear on the pistons where the oil squirters were hitting? I know there is a fine line to get them in the sweet spot of clearing a few areas of the piston.

There is no noticeable damage on the bottoms of the pistons from inspection. Maybe one tiny scratch but like I said before the camera can't focus on it because it's so small.


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[PapaSmurf]

Little update on what I plan on doing, pricing everything out at the moment.

Sleeved/O-Ringed block
Keyed Crank
Pinned Aggresive Web Cams
Manley I Beam w/625+ rod bolts
Standard Wisco Pistons with custom rings
Clevite main/rod bearings

Still up in the air on who I am going to have do the machine work/sleeves.

At the moment I am waiting on pricing from Kozmic Motorsports on sleeves/Orings/machine work.

Lowest bid wins! haha

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf Little update on what I plan on doing, pricing everything out at the moment. Sleeved/O-Ringed block Keyed Crank Pinned Aggresive Web Cams Manley I Beam w/625+ rod bolts Standard Wisco Pistons with custom rings Clevite main/rod bearings Still up in the air on who I am going to have do the machine work/sleeves. At the moment I am waiting on pricing from Kozmic Motorsports on sleeves/Orings/machine work. Lowest bid wins! haha

Any reason for going with the standard Wiseco's again? I only ask because I'm lovin my 10.6 SP Pistons.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Any reason for going with the standard Wiseco's again? I only ask because I'm lovin my 10.6 SP Pistons.

To me there are no pistons that have yet to stand out "better" then others.

They are only advertised "Made specifically for the MS3/6", They dont mention any type of advantages or proof that they are better. It is all hear say. Unless my engine is going to be gaining X or cooling X etc etc, whats the point?

All these after market pistons "specifically" made for our cars dont have any type of advantage over others? Unless I am not seeing something they all just say "Made for your mazdaspeed" so buy them because theyre better!

[btstarcher]

Well they're higher compression ratio pistons. I'm not sure what kind of R&D the did on the design, but I doubt that they just started playing around with CAD software. I don't know if anyone has quantified any benefits though.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Well they're higher compression ratio pistons. I'm not sure what kind of R&D the did on the design, but I doubt that they just started playing around with CAD software. I don't know if anyone has quantified any benefits though.

That's my main reasoning, quantified benefits.

I am fine with the stock compression ratio, I see no need to up the compression ratio. I love lots of boost haha.

[btstarcher]

I ain't even gonna lie, I bought mine because they look cool, and because very few people were doing it back then. Posifab began offering those pistons right when I was looking for pistons.

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf That's my main reasoning, quantified benefits. I am fine with the stock compression ratio, I see no need to up the compression ratio. I love lots of boost haha.

Highest horsepower MS6 is using those 10.6:1 CR pistons though. Plenty of boost on his beast.

[Tokay444]

Mazda changed the piston face design on the pu, we can only assume to eliminate wall washing and direct the fuel spray pattern back at the spark plug.
Would that be quantification enough?

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf To me there are no pistons that have yet to stand out "better" then others. They are only advertised "Made specifically for the MS3/6", They dont mention any type of advantages or proof that they are better. It is all hear say. Unless my engine is going to be gaining X or cooling X etc etc, whats the point? All these after market pistons "specifically" made for our cars dont have any type of advantage over others? Unless I am not seeing something they all just say "Made for your mazdaspeed" so buy them because theyre better!

Biggest reason I went with them, other than the bump in compression, is because they have exhaust valve relief cuts and larger than stock cuts for the intake valves.

With the issues I've personally seen with floating valves and timing slipping, that alone was enough for me to step away from the first gen wiseco's. The relief cuts also allow for room to grow in the future, when I swap cams/valves, something I would not even think of doing on the std wiseco's without having them machined/cut for valve reliefs.

On top of that, the design was quite close to the gen2 mazda piston design, which one would assume was an improvement in some way over the gen1 design. Also, the design and the steps taken to come up with the design made a lot of sense to me.

Lastly, though I can't quantify the data at all, the car has been very easy to tune and has shown great consistency in the spark plugs during visual inspections.

[jmhinkle]

I went with the CP-E version of the Wiseco pistons over the standard Wiseco because I wanted the copy of the Genpu design. Genpu's seem to respond to tuning a little better so the piston's had to be a good reason. I wouldn't run those high comp SP pistons on a turbo motor, but I'm old school like that. Our stock compression is actually quite high for a turbo motor as is. Since you have those more aggressive cams than mine, you might actually need the newer design of pistons with exhaust relief cutouts that mine don't have. Things to consider.

[sidekick]

Any specific reason for using the titanium retainers? If you're going to daily drive the car, I'd consider chromoly retainers over titanium. Titanium retainers don't tend to have a very long life, but they are the lightest option.

[Smelson]

Originally Posted by PapaSmurf Little update on what I plan on doing, pricing everything out at the moment. Sleeved/O-Ringed block Keyed Crank Pinned Aggresive Web Cams Manley I Beam w/625+ rod bolts Standard Wisco Pistons with custom rings Clevite main/rod bearings Still up in the air on who I am going to have do the machine work/sleeves. At the moment I am waiting on pricing from Kozmic Motorsports on sleeves/Orings/machine work. Lowest bid wins! haha

You might look up AWDtuning, they sleeve and o-ring Subaru's. The guys there are awesome.

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[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by sidekick Any specific reason for using the titanium retainers? If you're going to daily drive the car, I'd consider chromoly retainers over titanium. Titanium retainers don't tend to have a very long life, but they are the lightest option.

I don't daily drive the car, drive it once a week...if that


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[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle I went with the CP-E version of the Wiseco pistons over the standard Wiseco because I wanted the copy of the Genpu design. Genpu's seem to respond to tuning a little better so the piston's had to be a good reason. I wouldn't run those high comp SP pistons on a turbo motor, but I'm old school like that. Our stock compression is actually quite high for a turbo motor as is. Since you have those more aggressive cams than mine, you might actually need the newer design of pistons with exhaust relief cutouts that mine don't have. Things to consider.

now that I think about it I will most likely have to go with either the cpe or SP pistons solely for the relief cut outs. Not only for the aggressive cams but they are also oversize.

[jmhinkle]

Pulled my oil pan today and checked everything out from the bottom end. My squirters are still perfect and I have very minimal wear marks on the walls. My pistons are not coated either. I got some of the CP-e's that weren't, Edwards said don't worry about it. Pistons worked fine for years without it as long as the clearances are correct so I didn't want to wait for them to ship me new ones.

After looking at my squirters and then revisiting your pictures, I think that the rubbing is from the rod not the piston. I thought my #3 squirter was hitting the rod, but I had a perfect bead of oil suspended between the two. Once I wiped it, plenty of clearance. Look at your rods for some scoring in a circular pattern on one side. Also, looking at your piston pics and the trashed rod bearing I think that is all detonation in #3 . That would better explain the bearing and piston damage. Detonation is some evil shit.

[LumberJack]

Loving all the big builds, can't wait to see what you put down and wait for you to get to the track. We need to get you down out of the Stratosphere though and at sea level and make some passes on a well prepped and ready track. That head is sexy as hell, I was thinking about buying it, but my funds got extended well beyond what I was originally going too do lol. I'd definitely look into the Cpe pistons, I love the design and the pockets for DI and the valve relief depth, Justin seemed to like them quite a bit when he got mine for my build.

[PapaSmurf]

Im still debating if I want the cpe stage2 or stage 3 pistons, the only thing is I want a stock bore and I dont believe you can get the stage3 pistons in stock bore.

ill take a look at the rods sometime today, getting a new security system installed in the house in about 5 min so ill have to wait till they are done doing that.

Hopefully order my rods/pistons this week, still waiting on a response from Kozmic as far as sleeves/orings go.

[atvfreek]

Did you take any logs of when you were at the track. I wonder if FFS'ing ended up making the next gear run lean, and possibly caused you to run lean down the track.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Did you take any logs of when you were at the track. I wonder if FFS'ing ended up making the next gear run lean, and possibly caused you to run lean down the track.

no I didnt.

[atvfreek]

Just wondering cause you and will melted/warped the ringland and it most likely happened at the track. Then I had a guy completely melt a piston at the track. So just tryin to link similarities.

[PapaSmurf]

It def happened at the track, after my last pass I noticed the occ had ejaculated everywhere. Every pull I did after that filled up my catch can in one pull, meaning one 3-4 pull on the street.


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