E85 Discussion - HPFP lubrication and Flow issues

[Dano]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Fortunately I lifted immediately (not a bad reaction time between recognition of problem and lifting or perhaps I just got lucky) without issue and found the following when I got home:

WOW! glad it didn't go badly.

[phate]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so phate when u gona reach in and fondle your INFP?

Possibly tonight. The pump is getting worse in a hurry. Unfortunately, my new place is outside of town, so I need my car on a daily basis :/ That access hole is getting opened up.

[djuosnteisn]

Phate, were you the original owner of your car?

[phate]

No, I bought it with ~8k miles on it.

[phate]

Going to drop the tank tonight, for sure. One of my friends is a Ford mech and is able to help me out. Hopefully things go smoothly.

[PapaSmurf]

goodluck!

[bewsted]

Oh shutup mr.ihaveafullpagesigcauseimtightlikethat @MicaBlueMS3

I'm running the agressive timing as previously discussed now with a little lower on the top end and a little more boost....

On a 4th gear pull today I held 20 psi to 6000 rpms LOL!

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by bewsted Oh shutup mr.ihaveafullpagesigcauseimtightlikethat @MicaBlueMS3 I'm running the agressive timing as previously discussed now with a little lower on the top end and a little more boost.... On a 4th gear pull today I held 20 psi to 6000 rpms LOL!

I could only hold 20PSI to about 5200 RPMs today...poor K04 spinning at 11 billion RPMs...

[bewsted]

Weather was rather perfect today as well...

Although this holding 20 psi is kind of a once in a while occasion...if that lil turd gets warm kiss that shit goodbye.

[bewsted]

So @driver311 and @cld12pk2go what kind of afr are you guys targetting now days?

I just bumped upto 12.6 from 3500-rl......Next bump is 12.8

[86AmishMs3]

On a semi related note with the sludge, I'm noticing on my integra that pure e85 is drying out the gaskets and causing to become brittle when they go dry. But then again they are 150k miles and over 15 year old gaskets. Replaced them today when I switched back to stock injectors and gasoline was shooting everywhere. Sooo take that as you will.

Edit: fuel filter on my integra looked on par for 150k miles.

On my mazda, loves a 30% mix.

[bewsted]

30% is your knock eliminator and gives a lil extra pep for sure.

[superskaterxes]

so howd it go phate?

[phate]

So we dropped the tank, all went well. It only took a few hours. Everything in the pump assembly looked fine, except for the filter. The filter, which is a tiny POS on the inlet of the pump, was almost black with nasty dirt. It had so much sediment, it was very heavy compared to the one on my replacement pump. I am 99% sure it was the filter causing a huge restriction on the inlet of the ITFP.

But, I went ahead and replaced the entire pump assembly, only reusing the fuel level float. So we dissected the pump and regulator to look for anything odd. Every bit of it looked fine. All plastic pieces were intact, the pump motor spun freely, there wasn't buildup anywhere inside of the pump. The O-rings on the regulator looked brand new, and the rubber flapper valve was intact and functioning properly.

The filter material was still intact, and obviously doing its job. I am pretty confident in saying the ethanol is not eating anything in the fuel pump assembly. Though, it may be an indirect cause of the fuel filter clogging. I am unsure if this was 55k miles (total on car) worth of dirt, or 5k (total on e85) miles worth of dirt. In 5k or so miles, I'll re-inspect the new filter.

Aside from that, I have noticed significantly more buildup in the HPFP since the stock internals went back in and the ITFP started to die. It could be dirt getting past the ITFP filter, or it could be tied to cavitation in the HPFP due to lack of supply from the ITFP. I'm going to pull the HPFP tonight and clean everything. Hopefully I'll see this buildup subside from the current rate. I haven't been running the in-line filter for a few weeks, now, so I may put it back in.

On the positive side of increased buildup, I scraped together a good sample to send to Blackstone. I used a brand new razor blade to prevent cross contamination as much as I could. I'm going to compose a letter summarizing my entire experience. Hopefully they will be able to get some results. I'll post a copy of my letter here.

I have many pictures of the fuel pump assembly pieces. I don't have internet access at my new place, yet, but I should get it hooked up tonight. I'll post pictures of everything as soon as I can.

[phate]

Letter to Blackstone, sent today with the residue sample, 8/11/2011

August 10, 2011 Dear Blackstone Labs, What the heck is this? I recently spoke with Randy on the phone about this buildup I am seeing inside of my high pressure fuel pump. This is from a 2007 Mazdaspeed3 direct injection fuel pump. I recently switched the car to E85, and have been seeing this buildup ever since. I have been running E85 for almost three months, driving approximately 5,000 miles in that time. Initially, I suspected it was dirt being dislodged by the ethanol. I put an in-line fuel filter in place, just before the direct injection pump, to no avail. The buildup continues. After 3,500 miles with the fuel filter in place, I dissected the filter to find not even a trace of sediment. I have found, however, that buildup occurs much more quickly without the in-line fuel filter in place. This leads me to believe it may be filtering some, but not all, of the contaminants. Also, I recently had an issue with the in-tank filter getting clogged. All other in-tank pump components (pump/regulator/o-rings/rubber parts) looked unaffected. These two issues could be tied together, and I hope an analysis can point me in the right direction! Randy has already told me this is not in the normal realm for any Blackstone analysis. Please call to discuss possibilities - xxx-xxx-xxxx (cell phone). Thank you, phate - my client ID PS - from what I can tell, after many hours searching through Google and online forum use that is bordering on obsession, I may be the only person running straight E85 in the Mazda MZR DISI engine. When the buildup isn’t causing a problem, the car runs better than it ever has. I, and the MazdaSpeed community, hope you can help us identify what this car will require to use E85 consistently, without the issues I am seeing.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by bewsted So @driver311 and @cld12pk2go what kind of afr are you guys targetting now days? I just bumped upto 12.6 from 3500-rl......Next bump is 12.8

12.5:1 from 1500-7000 RPMs.

[bewsted]

That's with 100% meth

tapa dat ass

[superskaterxes]

on a similar note, @djuosnteisn/@socks/@SSinstaller , did you guys see any shitty buildup when you pulled your pumps?

[driver311]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go 12.5:1 from 1500-7000 RPMs.

Im the same.

[bewsted]

I have been running @ 12.5 for a bit and tried 12.7 and kept getting nasty creep....

Guess 12.5 to 12.6 seems to be the "promise land" for me.

[superskaterxes]

creep? on stock turbo? lol

[Dano]

@driver311 @superskaterxes and anyone else for that matter

what was the leanest AFR you were able to run on 93?

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes creep? on stock turbo? lol

lol....afr's running away.....excuse the terminology creep

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 @driver311 @superskaterxes and anyone else for that matter what was the leanest AFR you were able to run on 93?

with meth? i think ive been as high as 12.5-12.7 depending on AAT and boost level

[driver311]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 @driver311 @superskaterxes and anyone else for that matter what was the leanest AFR you were able to run on 93?

Back in the day when I was running mid to high 12s on just a few bolt ons I was running mid 12s for afr and car ripped. Now I run 12.0-12.2 on pump 93 when Its in my tank.

It all depends on how efficient of a setup you have and keeping the bats down.

[bewsted]

12.0-12.2 is farthest i've gone on 93 pumpzilla....

[phate]

I haz interweb





So I chopped the filter apart in layers:







The inside portion (pickup side) of the filter is dirty:





And a few other pieces:

[phate]

Just found out my new HPFP internals will be here next week.

So we all know what that means...because I don't, as they say, 'fuck around'. [LOL]

DYNO TIME

Just sent an inquiry to schedule for Thursday or Friday.

[Enki]

Looks like you might be just fine with a filter replacement and a good old fashioned scrubbing of the gas tank (if that's even possible). Maybe toss a gallon of methanol in there and swish it around for a few minutes to really get all the nasty shit out.

If you do that, take a pic of the result

Edit: New internals? What happened to the old ones?

[Dano]

Excellent idea!!!


Tappin

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Looks like you might be just fine with a filter replacement and a good old fashioned scrubbing of the gas tank (if that's even possible). Maybe toss a gallon of methanol in there and swish it around for a few minutes to really get all the nasty shit out. If you do that, take a pic of the result Edit: New internals? What happened to the old ones?

The inside of the gas tank looked clean. There was a little bit of debris floating around, but nothing serious for 55k miles worth of fuel. Gas tank is back in the car with the new fuel pump assembly. It was definitely an issue with the ITFP, as I'm seeing 1900psi out of the stock pump when I get into boost a little bit. It can't supply enough fuel, of course, but I'm seeing way more pressure than I was before.

Internals were my first though, so I sent them in to KMD for warranty. Apparently they tested bad, as well, so I'm getting a new set.

[Enki]

Hmm...I'm wondering how they tested bad. Did they say? Hopefully they are actually still good, and KMD is just covering their bases and being awesome.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Enki Hmm...I'm wondering how they tested bad. Did they say? Hopefully they are actually still good, and KMD is just covering their bases and being awesome.

You could be right. Before I sent them in, I was told they would be tested for approval/denial. They just sent an email saying my warranty claim was approved, without explanation. I sent in a letter explaining how I tested another set of internals and they held pressure, along with a graph of my pressure loss over the rpm range.

PS - while Ethanol is not much more corrosive than gas, methanol is more corrosive than both, AFAIK. I don't think I would ever attempt methanol in a stock fuel system.

[Enki]

Yes, I'm aware of how corrosive methanol is, and I would never suggest running it in the stock fuel system; which is why I suggested you flush the tank (alone) with it, which should eat away anything loose inside.

Ergh; Edit:
That is pretty strange behavior by KMD. If I were you, I'd grill them a bit further.

[phate]

Ugh, no time available at the closest dyno. I'm going to call around, but it may be after the dragon trip when I dyno. I need to switch back to gas for the labor day trip to make sure all is well with it.

[Dano]

Don't they close the highway to let ppls run it?

[socks]

I did notice buildup. it was significantly worse than in the pictures above.

i didnt cut my filter apart, all i noticed was on the outside.

[phate]

So, I just spent most of my Friday night cleaning my HPFP parts. Everything was pretty bad. The housing and spill valve (minus the spill valve solenoid) was caked worse than when I first started on this venture. I haven't cleaned everything like this for many miles - probably over 1,000, but the buildup got much worse in just the last couple hundred miles.

Hopefully I'll be able to see some difference in build up rate with the new ITFP assembly and ITFP filter. I'm a little skeptical of the new ITFP filter, as it seemed like there was much less filter material compared to the old one. It was a different design, just like a single layer of thin cloth material, whereas the old one had a thick layer plus the woven mesh layer on the outside. We'll see, I guess.

[phate]

I've got some dyno time this Friday up in Seneca, IL @ Snowdance Enterprises. For any of you Chicago folk, this shop only charges $100/hr!! It sounds like they don't have any sort of tuner, so you'll be on your own, there.

Edit: looks like internals should be here tomorrow.

[phate]

I just realized they sent them to the wrong fucking address. WTF

Edit: Holy hell, I just realized this post is #601 in this thread!