I Want E85 Support

[Mazdazilla6]

Okay guys so I don't know how many of you keep up with Cobb Tuning, but they are releasing this for Subbies soon.

ff.jpg

Yes, it's what you think it is. It's a plug and play flex fuel kit. This will allow the car to run any amount of ethanol without having to worry about fuel trims having to compensate for percentage differences. With the success that has been had with the IE fuel pump internals and S1 we are finally coming up with a future where full E85 is possible.

"Well why not just tune for full E85 then?" Because E85 varies from gas station to station and can even change depending on the season. Sometimes these changes can differ by up to 30% and that is beyond what fuel trims can compensate for. On top of that, this also allows for less thinking for those who still want to run mixes and don't have to worry about getting it just right every time they fill up.

Currently our platform has no such options for something like this and it'd be great to see Cobb make this for us because tables for the sensor could be implemented into ATR so we don't need any 3rd party tuning.

What are you thoughts on this guys? If this were available for us would you buy it?

@Cobb Tuning; @Evan@COBB; @Calvin@COBB;

[Enki]

@Steve@VersaTune;

In reality, how would this be wired into the ecu? That is a consideration that needs to be taken into account.

[Steve@VersaTune]

Originally Posted by Enki @Steve@VersaTune; In reality, how would this be wired into the ecu? That is a consideration that needs to be taken into account.

Already in the works.

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[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Already in the works. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Care to give any details? Eta?

[Steve@VersaTune]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 Care to give any details? Eta?

Hardware prototype is done. I need to get my MS6 on the road to start testing code. I've been busy with a lot of other stuff.

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[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Hardware prototype is done. I need to get my MS6 on the road to start testing code. I've been busy with a lot of other stuff. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

My MS6 is already on the road

[jdmage_mx5]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Already in the works. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Once again Versatuner reminds me of the great choice I made to switch!

[speedfreak44]

About to have an APv2 for sale shortly if steve makes this reality

[Enki]

Good thing I finished that drink or I'd have spit water all over the place.

[neganox]

Dick punches for anyone that votes no.

[Steve@VersaTune]

The sensor hardware and wiring are at the hardware developer's shop.

[Steve@VersaTune]

I just need the DP and wastegates plumbed. Nearly done.

[Steve@VersaTune]

The car is going to the exhaust fab shop on Tuesday.

Here is a pic of the sensor prototype.

[tmillner]

Where do you think it'll mount?

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[Steve@VersaTune]

It will be platform dependent. We can include enough fuel line to put it anywhere in the engine bay. We are still deciding some of those details.

[Polish_Eagle]

So if I ran this in shitty Ontario where they decided no one deserves e85, can I use it to determine if I'm running Ultra94 or 91 octane? Like in VersaTune will I be able to have it automatically detune the car to safely run 91 or push the limits on 94? The reason I ask is because in the winter time I run Shell 91 and in the summer Ultra94, but if I have my 94 tune and run 91 the car knocks like crazy!

[Steve@VersaTune]

It's an ethanol sensor not an octane sensor.

[Polish_Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune It's an ethanol sensor not an octane sensor.

Ahh I see, totally forgot lol. Thanks!

[Enki]

Will it be difficult to hook this up (electrically)? Also, any thoughts as to how to control injector sizing in case that becomes a reality?

[Steve@VersaTune]

The intent is for it to be plug and play. Worst case, we can control injector size at a crude level. I am pretty sure that we can do it the right way though.

It's 12:30AM and we just finished another brainstorming session. There is some insanely cool stuff in the pipeline.

[Enki]

There's enough hints in there for me to suspect automatic calibration.

Fantastic.

[Easter Bunny]

i thought that with the primary o2 sensor being a wideband that there was a possibility of a software fix for making the cars flex fuel?

Originally Posted by neganox Dick punches for anyone that votes no.

Bring it.

[neganox]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny Bring it.

[Steve@VersaTune]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny i thought that with the primary o2 sensor being a wideband that there was a possibility of a software fix for making the cars flex fuel?

If we wanted to rewrite all of the fuel trim code, yeah it could be done. Wholesale changes of ECU code are not a good idea without the source code.

[Steve@VersaTune]

My MS6 just got dropped off at the exhaust shop. I should be able to start testing in a few weeks.

[Djohns]

Now here's the question I know we're all thinking. Is there an estimated cost yet for this kit? Comparable to PI or cheaper?

[Steve@VersaTune]

Originally Posted by Djohns Now here's the question I know we're all thinking. Is there an estimated cost yet for this kit? Comparable to PI or cheaper?

We won't have pricing till we get the components finalized. We're still working with one off prototype hardware.

Originally Posted by nindoja @Steve@VersaTune; So this kit is just going to read AFR values and adjust the MAF cal dynamically? I was talking to a friend that has a WRX about a FlexFuel kit they have, and it's hooked into their fuel return lines and actually measures ethanol content in the fuel. Then it extrapolates timing values based on the ethanol content.

It will use an ethanol sensor that goes inline in the fuel system. Probably right before the HPFP. It will correct the injection amount for the detected ethanol percentage. I have some ideas on what to do with ignition timing, but I have not done anything with timing yet.

[nindoja]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune It will use an ethanol sensor that goes inline in the fuel system. Probably right before the HPFP. It will correct the injection amount for the detected ethanol percentage. I have some ideas on what to do with ignition timing, but I have not done anything with timing yet.

Awesome to hear. I'll be curious to see what the final product is capable of tweaking in the map. Apparently the way the WRX guys do timing is to have 2 maps (1 full e85, 1 93) that it interpolates between. Since we can't do the map switching on the fly, it'll be interesting to see what you guys come up with.

[nindoja]

@Steve@VersaTune; So this kit is just going to read AFR values and adjust the MAF cal dynamically?

I was talking to a friend that has a WRX about a FlexFuel kit they have, and it's hooked into their fuel return lines and actually measures ethanol content in the fuel. Then it extrapolates timing values based on the ethanol content.

[Onelovesoccer]

i would, without a doubt, buy one. i saw Cobb respond on their website there are no plans to do this for the Mazdaspeed. so very excited to read the above from Steve!

[Djohns]

Id buy one without a doubt as well. Two things that hold me back from e are laziness of mixing and dirtiness. But I just won't run rotella for dirtiness

[xfeejayx]

Can someone move this to VT section since we're now talking about a specific solution/product by a specific vendor?

Originally Posted by Djohns Id buy one without a doubt as well. Two things that hold me back from e are laziness of mixing and dirtiness. But I just won't run rotella for dirtiness

I just put in 'whatever.' 4 gal, 5 gal, 6 gal on top of 89, . fuckyotrims

In all seriousness, it's really not that serious to be dead nuts on, though this will make it a no brainer. Might be time to start making VT maps.

[Gr8Speed]

@Steve@VersaTune; if you haven't already thought to do so, this should control not only the fueling but the ignition tables as well. Cool stuff to see happening. Glad there is still some innovation going on!

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune We won't have pricing till we get the components finalized. We're still working with one off prototype hardware. It will use an ethanol sensor that goes inline in the fuel system. Probably right before the HPFP. It will correct the injection amount for the detected ethanol percentage. I have some ideas on what to do with ignition timing, but I have not done anything with timing yet.

Nevermind. Sniped.

[Enki]

Honestly I think map switching for timing with a configurable cutover percentage would be the way to go. Timing is too important on these engines to let software manage it.

Edit:
Maybe something with boost or AFRs would work instead though; leaner or more boost if corn content is higher.

[Steve@VersaTune]

Originally Posted by Enki Timing is too important on these engines to let software manage it.

What is controlling timing on your engine, a Bosch 009 distributor?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune What is controlling timing on your engine, a Bosch 009 distributor?

I'm sure you understand the intention behind my statement. With enough corn in the tank, you can go over MBT without seeing knock (like I have before) so allowing a sensor and software logic to change timing for you is probably a bad idea.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to include a table that cross references timing adjustments if the sensor value is either too low or too high, and use that to figure out final timing.

[Gr8Speed]

Originally Posted by Enki Timing is too important on these engines to let software manage it.

Plenty of other platforms (Focus ST and BMW in my own experience) compensate timing based on other variables with success. Timing is important on all engines, not just these. I agree failsafes would need to be implemented, but not tuning ignition for different mixes of fuel is just silly. We have knock sensors for a reason. Obviously user input would need to be in primary control (maximum ignition advance per cell table) Personally, I'd advocate having a map-able matrix to control this based on input sensor voltage and just smooth between given inputs (basically at ethanol content X, user input dictates this ignition advance, and at ethanol content Y, user input dictates a given ignition advance- interpolate between the given values). There should be relatively simple ways to implement a control loop based on a given failsafe parameter (knock sensor voltage for example). I'm not sure the ins and outs of how Versatune operates, but a PI controller probably could be set up to do the job.

TL;DR it won't be easy, but it should be able to be done safely.

[g00s3y]

This is awesome. I'm not a VT user, but the more innovation for this platform, the better.

[Djohns]

Would be awesome if there was a way to get this to work with AP and VT

[thrisnospork]

Glad this is in the works, shit gas in California (and money) is the reason I haven't bought any power mods yet. I'd definitely consider using VT for E85 support.

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